The Process Of Justification

[turnorburn]

Then the other day i heard someone preaching "we must especially guard against: the simplistic reductionism which sees only good or evil; or, if you will, the righteous and sinners."

It was the preaching of the cross that brought me to Christ, its one thing to "think" your sins are forgiven and quite another to "KNOW" that your sins are forgiven..

tob

 

[dadof10]

Right. One does not possess the promise of inheritance through the righteousness that is (supposedly) earned by obeying the law, but by the righteousness that comes for free through faith in the promise of God.

Like Abraham had in Gen. 12. A faith that justified him.

My Bible says Abraham received this righteousness that comes through faith in the promise of God when he believed God in Genesis 15:6, when God told him that a son coming from his own body would be the descendant--that is, the heir--that would possess the land being promised.

But the promise was made in Gen. 12, not Gen. 15, as Paul plainly says, and the promise was "through the righteousness of faith".

And we know this is not a moment in a long process of being declared righteous over and over again, because Paul explains how Abraham did not waver in doubt in regard to the promises that it should be necessary for him to be re-justified. Doubt and wavering faith was the reason you gave for why it is necessary that justification be a process of being re-justified and not simply a one-time deal. You have tried to use Abraham as the example to prove how a person is, and has to be, re-justified. But Paul says he never wavered in his faith that re-justification was ever necessary for him.

We don't "know", you infer. What we KNOW is that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12. Paul says so...back to work.

 

[Jim Parker]

Then the other day i heard someone preaching "we must especially guard against: the simplistic reductionism which sees only good or evil; or, if you will, the righteous and sinners."

It was the preaching of the cross that brought me to Christ, its one thing to "think" your sins are forgiven and quite another to "KNOW" that your sins are forgiven..

tob

And scripture assures that we can know that they are forgiven.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[turnorburn]

And scripture assures that we can know that they are forgiven.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

Along with that is knowing that you have eternal life...

tob

 

[Jim Parker]

Right. One does not possess the promise of inheritance through the righteousness that is (supposedly) earned by obeying the law, but by the righteousness that comes for free through faith in the promise of God.

Neither will one realize the promise by ignoring the Law and living a self-centered life rather than a life of patient continuance in doing good. (Ro 2)

My Bible says Abraham received this righteousness that comes through faith in the promise of God when he believed God in Genesis 15:6, when God told him that a son coming from his own body would be the descendant--that is, the heir--that would possess the land being promised.

And Abraham did not waver in that faith for the decades between the time God promised him descendants who would possess the land and the time when he began to offer his only son of promise as a burnt offering to God.

That "not wavering" and his act of proceeding with the sacrifice of Isaac completed his faith. (James 2:22)

And we know this is not a moment in a long process of being declared righteous over and over again, because Paul explains how Abraham did not waver in doubt in regard to the promises that it should be necessary for him to be re-justified. Doubt and wavering faith was the reason you gave for why it is necessary that justification be a process of being re-justified and not simply a one-time deal. You have tried to use Abraham as the example to prove how a person is, and has to be, re-justified. But Paul says he never wavered in his faith that re-justification was ever necessary for him.

Wrong reference aside, we do need to continue in the faith to remain justified.

“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die". (Eze 18:21-24)

That says (1) a person whom God has called righteous can loose that righteousness and (2) having lost that righteousness, he can also loose his (eternal) life.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Along with that is knowing that you have eternal life...

tob

Yes, provided that one abides (remains) in Christ.

iakov the fool

 

[turnorburn]

Yes, provided that one abides (remains) in Christ.

iakov the fool

My bible tells me I'm sealed by the Holy Spirit and can't lose eternal life, eternal life is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast..

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

tob

*edit: forgot something "again"

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[Jim Parker]

My bible tells me I'm sealed by the Holy Spirit and can't lose eternal life,

Interesting... does your Bible also say the following?


(1) JN 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5-6 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17-22 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12-14 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7-10 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12-14 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9)2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20-21 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Those are all in my Bible and they all say that eternal life is not a guaranteed outcome for simply believing. That's why the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to use the word "IF" so often.

So, make your calling and election sure, bro.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

Those are all in my Bible and they all say that eternal life is not a guaranteed outcome for simply believing.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That's why the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to use the word "IF" so often.

Not one scripture you cited refers to any believer ending up in hell. Zero. Nada.

So, make your calling and election sure, bro.

Don't know how that is possible, IF you can't be sure. But those kinds of circular arguments exist, aplenty.

 

[turnorburn]

It also says Jesus came to do his Father's will, if you've forgotten what that is..

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

tob

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Like Abraham had in Gen. 12. A faith that justified him.

A faith by which he was eventually justified by in Genesis 15:6.

But the promise was made in Gen. 12, not Gen. 15, as Paul plainly says, and the promise was "through the righteousness of faith".

The promises were made in more places than that. And it was the culmination of Abraham's faith in the promises in Genesis 15:6 that resulted in justification. This is what the Bible actually says. No inference required.

We don't "know", you infer.

We do know, because Paul plainly said Abraham never wavered in his faith (Romans 4:18-22 NASB). And that's why that faith was credited to him as righteousness.....in Genesis 15:6, where the Bible plainly says that happened with no inference required. It plainly says that.

What we KNOW is that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12. Paul says so

If that's what Paul said we would not be having this discussion. Not with me anyway.

 

[dadof10]

A faith by which he was eventually justified by in Genesis 15:6.

I agree, if you remove the word "eventually". He was justified in Gen. 15.

The promises were made in more places than that.

Rom. 4:13 doesn't say promises, it says promise, singular. The promise he is talking about is the promise that Abraham would be "heir of the world", which was first made in Gen. 12.

"and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom 4:12-13 NASB)

As you said, Paul is chronicling the faith of Abraham here and it starts in Gen. 12, when he first had faith (Heb. 11). Did this faith justify him? Paul plainly says that this faithful acceptance was "through the righteousness of faith". So the answer is clearly "yes". Even if we ignore the overwhelming evidence I laid out on Heb. 11 (which you have been doing), this alone should be enough to prove that in Paul's mind, Abraham accepted the "promise" in Gen. 12 "through the righteousness of faith", and this plainly means he was justified.

And it was the culmination of Abraham's faith in the promises in Genesis 15:6 that resulted in justification. This is what the Bible actually says. No inference required.

Well, actually there is a lot if inference packed in that sentence.

We do know, because Paul plainly said Abraham never wavered in his faith (Romans 4:18-22 NASB). And that's why that faith was credited to him as righteousness.....in Genesis 15:6, where the Bible plainly says that happened with no inference required. It plainly says that.

More inference. Rom. 4 doesn't say "Abraham never wavered in his faith", it says:

"yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God," (Rom 4:20 NASB).

This is one, specific aspect of faith he is talking about here. He is saying that Abraham never doubted the "promise of God", not "never doubted God". Abraham had faith "that what God had promised, He was able also to perform". (v.21). That doesn't translate into "never wavered in his faith". He could have "wavered" when it came to other aspects not related to "the promise". Also, when did this "not wavering" and "growing strong in faith" start? It seems from the text like it started in Gen. 17, since this is the part of the chronology that it appears in.

"(as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform." (Rom 4:17-21 NASB)

Since he says "yet" here, he is tying the "not wavering" to what came before, namely the faith Abraham showed by trusting God and not doubting that God could bring forth a son from two very old people, which he had misunderstood before that. Remember, he thought "the promise" was coming through Ishmael (Gen. 13). He still believed the promise from Gen. 12 that he would be "heir of the world", but now he believed it even though it seemed impossible. Now he "grew strong in faith" because he believed that God could bring forth a son from "the deadness of Sarah's womb", which was impossible in his mind.

While we're on the subject, I don't ever remember insinuating that "doubt" was the only thing that would remove justification from a person. I know I said that I thought Abraham "doubted" in Gen. 17 when he "laughed", but you and StoveBolts showed me I was in error. I have been, for the sake of argument here, purposely not engaging in what justifies, so I might have implied that this is what I believe. I do believe that doubt (lack of faith) certainly will "unjustify" a person, but that's not even close to the only reason that people need to repent and return to Christ. We are justified by obedient faith, just like you believe about salvation. When either "obedience" or "faith" is lacking, repentance is necessary to justify the sinner. We are not justified by obedience alone, without faith. We are not justified by faith alone without obedience. Lack of either of these, requires "rejustification".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree, if you remove the word "eventually". He was justified in Gen. 15.


Rom. 4:13 doesn't say promises, it says promise, singular. The promise he is talking about is the promise that Abraham would be "heir of the world", which was first made in Gen. 12.

"and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom 4:12-13 NASB)

As you said, Paul is chronicling the faith of Abraham here and it starts in Gen. 12, when he first had faith (Heb. 11). Did this faith justify him? Paul plainly says that this faithful acceptance was "through the righteousness of faith". So the answer is clearly "yes". Even if we ignore the overwhelming evidence I laid out on Heb. 11 (which you have been doing), this alone should be enough to prove that in Paul's mind, Abraham accepted the "promise" in Gen. 12 "through the righteousness of faith", and this plainly means he was justified.


Well, actually there is a lot if inference packed in that sentence.


More inference. Rom. 4 doesn't say "Abraham never wavered in his faith", it says:

"yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God," (Rom 4:20 NASB).

This is one, specific aspect of faith he is talking about here. He is saying that Abraham never doubted the "promise of God", not "never doubted God". Abraham had faith "that what God had promised, He was able also to perform". (v.21). That doesn't translate into "never wavered in his faith". He could have "wavered" when it came to other aspects not related to "the promise". Also, when did this "not wavering" and "growing strong in faith" start? It seems from the text like it started in Gen. 17, since this is the part of the chronology that it appears in.

"(as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform." (Rom 4:17-21 NASB)

Since he says "yet" here, he is tying the "not wavering" to what came before, namely the faith Abraham showed by trusting God and not doubting that God could bring forth a son from two very old people, which he had misunderstood before that. Remember, he thought "the promise" was coming through Ishmael (Gen. 13). He still believed the promise from Gen. 12 that he would be "heir of the world", but now he believed it even though it seemed impossible. Now he "grew strong in faith" because he believed that God could bring forth a son from "the deadness of Sarah's womb", which was impossible in his mind.

While we're on the subject, I don't ever remember insinuating that "doubt" was the only thing that would remove justification from a person. I know I said that I thought Abraham "doubted" in Gen. 17 when he "laughed", but you and StoveBolts showed me I was in error. I have been, for the sake of argument here, purposely not engaging in what justifies, so I might have implied that this is what I believe. I do believe that doubt (lack of faith) certainly will "unjustify" a person, but that's not even close to the only reason that people need to repent and return to Christ. We are justified by obedient faith, just like you believe about salvation. When either "obedience" or "faith" is lacking, repentance is necessary to justify the sinner. We are not justified by obedience alone, without faith. We are not justified by faith alone without obedience. Lack of either of these, requires "rejustification".

Besides your insistence in adding to scripture, I knew this would be a fruitless discussion because you have a different and unBiblical meaning of 'justification' anyway. But I know you have to have that different meaning in order to defend the additions to scripture your doctrine is based on.

If you understood to begin with that justification is only necessary one time (because it is the making of one legally righteous, not the making of a person literally righteous) you'd know there's no basis for your adding to scripture to make it so Abraham was justified more than one time. I knew this was going to be the rub from the beginning of the discussion, and I knew this is where the discussion would end--with your misunderstanding of what justification is.

"14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. " (Hebrews 10:14 NASB)

Is it really possible to argue about when/where Abraham was justified if you don't even agree that being 'perfected for all time' by Christ's sacrifice (justification) means it can only be a one-time event? No, of course not. The simple fact that it is not necessary to be re-justified because the first time it happens it happens for 'all time' (see above quote) rules out any discussion that Abraham was justified, both, in Genesis 12:4 and then again in Genesis 15:6. It really is that simple.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"for all time" (Hebrews 10:14 NASB)

Let it sink in, dadof10.

 

[JLB]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Yes, those who hears His word, have the faith that comes by hearing the word of God.

Those in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit, are those who will not be under comdenation.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1-2

JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes, those who hears His word, have the faith that comes by hearing the word of God.

Those in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit, are those who will not be under comdenation.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1-2

JLB

Which doesn't equate to not having the contrariness of the flesh to walk with.

Gal. 5:17

 

[dadof10]

Besides your insistence in adding to scripture, I knew this would be a fruitless discussion because you have a different and unBiblical meaning of 'justification' anyway. But I know you have to have that different meaning in order to defend the additions to scripture your doctrine is based on.

If you understood to begin with that justification is only necessary one time (because it is the making of one legally righteous, not the making of a person literally righteous) you'd know there's no basis for your adding to scripture to make it so Abraham was justified more than one time. I knew this was going to be the rub from the beginning of the discussion, and I knew this is where the discussion would end--with your misunderstanding of what justification is.

"14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. " (Hebrews 10:14 NASB)

Is it really possible to argue about when/where Abraham was justified if you don't even agree that being 'perfected for all time' by Christ's sacrifice (justification) means it can only be a one-time event? No, of course not. The simple fact that it is not necessary to be re-justified because the first time it happens it happens for 'all time' (see above quote) rules out any discussion that Abraham was justified, both, in Genesis 12:4 and then again in Genesis 15:6. It really is that simple.

"Rules out discussion"? Really? I suppose you would have been fine with this excuse when we were discussing James 2, huh? I mean, James plainly says "we are not justified by faith alone", right? I suppose that would "rule out discussion" on the topic of faith alone. It's false. James says so, end of discussion, it's really that simple. That's fine with you, right?

I guess I got my answer, that being "yes", this exegesis is irrefutable. When I agreed to "engage" on this topic, I told you that if you couldn't refute it, no one could. That may have been a bit of an exaggeration, but no one here, on this forum could....or did. To the exegesis (it's really not mine) of the verses in Heb. 11 and Gen. 12 I presented, I got crickets from you. You just keep bringing up Heb. 10:14 as the trump card on this topic when it just isn't. It is an absolutely valid interpretation to say that this verse refers to those in Heaven who are sanctified, which is why they are "perfected for all time", that is the context. You ignore my take on this verse and just keep posting it, saying "see, it's impossible to be rejustified because the Bible says so, end of discussion". Again, I expected more.

You have refused to "engage" on Heb. 11 and how ridiculous it would be to interpret how Noah "became heir of the righteousness which is by faith", a faith that justified, but the very next word "By faith..." means a dead faith.

You have refused to "engage" on the fact that even though it doesn't say Rahab was justified in the text of Heb. 11, James tells us she was, which proves that the author of Hebrews didn't feel the need to have to tell us which of the "elders" were and were not justified. All of them were, so your argument that "it doesn't say" he was justified, is mute.

And most recently, you have refused to "engage" on Rom. 4:13 where Paul specifically says that in Gen. 12, when the promise was made "through the righteousness of faith", Abraham received the promise through faith (as Heb. 11 says), and he was then justified. This is what it means.

Let me leave you with this as an exegesis of Heb. 10:14, your "trump verse".

"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." (Phl 3:8-12 NASB)

Not the language of a man who considers himself to have "been made perfect" on this earth, nor one who has already attained the resurrection of the dead.

"To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," (Heb 12:23 KJV)

Here is your context for Heb. 10:14. He is describing Heaven here and the context is people who are already "sanctified" and in Heaven. Those are the "perfect".

I hope you'll start to actually engage in the verses I've put forth instead of throwing up a "trump verse" and declaring victory.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Psalm 23:6;
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".

Question; "How did David know that?".

 

[childeye]

Psalm 23:6;
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".

Question; "How did David know that?".

Perhaps he saw it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Perhaps he saw it.

Hmmm, if that were true, would you say his experience was connected to reality?