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The Process Of Justification

Rollo Tamasi said:
Hmmm, if that were true, would you say his experience was connected to reality?
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Assuming God showed him, and God knows all, then the answer would be yes. So much of that which concerns the Kingdom of God is believing that this worldly existence is not the real reality.
 
childeye said:
Assuming God showed him, and God knows all, then the answer would be yes. So much of that which concerns the Kingdom of God is believing that this worldly existence is not the real reality.
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But if this is true, then why would God show him if one could still lose their salvation?
Then again, if one could not lose their salvation, why would God show him?
So does this mean that David could have lost faith and still be saved?
Or is there more going on than we understand?
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Psalm 23:6;
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".

Question; "How did David know that?".
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He didn't "know it". It's not a statement of fact, it's allegorical.

"He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters."

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over."

Did David lay down in green pastures and walk beside still waters?

Did David walk through Death Valley, does God have a rod and staff?

Did God prepare a literal table full of food for David in front of his enemies and anoint his head with literal oil? Does God have a literal house?

So, all these things are symbolic except the word "forever". That is literal because it proves your point...Please.

Why don't you try and deal with Heb. 11, and how Abraham was justified twice instead of doing word searches for the word "forever" and posting the results? C'mon...engage in actual exegesis...
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
But if this is true, then why would God show him if one could still lose their salvation?
Then again, if one could not lose their salvation, why would God show him?
So does this mean that David could have lost faith and still be saved?
Or is there more going on than we understand?
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Your last line is certainly true in some degree. According to scripture and verifiable in our own hearts, God is Love. To me, the simple issue put forth for us to deal with, which is always in the present, is not whether we will be saved or are saved, but whether God is good, and whether good will prevail despite whatever it looks like in this present world. Even if people lose faith and believe God is evil, or not even real, doesn't make it true.
 
dadof10 said:
He didn't "know it". It's not a statement of fact, it's allegorical.

"He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters."

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over."

Did David lay down in green pastures and walk beside still waters?

Did David walk through Death Valley, does God have a rod and staff?

Did God prepare a literal table full of food for David in front of his enemies and anoint his head with literal oil? Does God have a literal house?

So, all these things are symbolic except the word "forever". That is literal because it proves your point...Please.

Why don't you try and deal with Heb. 11, and how Abraham was justified twice instead of doing word searches for the word "forever" and posting the results? C'mon...engage in actual exegesis...
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Who cares how many times you think Abraham was justified.
The average person would never understand anyway.
So I guess it's not really important, is it?
 
dadof10 said:
doesn't say promises, it says promise, singular. The promise he is talking about is the promise that Abraham would be "heir of the world", which was first made in Gen. 12.

"and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom 4:12-13 NASB)

As you said, Paul is chronicling the faith of Abraham here and it starts in Gen. 12, when he first had faith (Heb. 11). Did this faith justify him? Paul plainly says that this faithful acceptance was "through the righteousness of faith". So the answer is clearly "yes". Even if we ignore the overwhelming evidence I laid out on Heb. 11 (which you have been doing), this alone should be enough to prove that in Paul's mind, Abraham accepted the "promise" in Gen. 12 "through the righteousness of faith", and this plainly means he was justified.
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:salute :goodpost

I just can't see how anyone can argue with what these scriptures so plainly say???

But they do!


JLB
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Who cares how many times you think Abraham was justified.
The average person would never understand anyway.
So I guess it's not really important, is it?
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Wow, there is so much wrong with this paragraph I don't even know where to start. I guess with the fact that you must see that this is an irrefutable fact, otherwise you would at least try to refute it. If it is true that Abraham was justified twice (and it is), that would naturally lead to the fact that he needed to be justified twice, so he lost his initial justification. Don't you think this is a significant point? Third, I can't decide whether you don't understand the point and so don't consider it important or you do understand and think you are above the "average person" in understanding. I can tell you, Rollo, there is a picture of me in the dictionary under the term "average person" and I have a pretty good grasp of this topic. It ain't rocket surgery.
 
dadof10 said:
Wow, there is so much wrong with this paragraph I don't even know where to start. I guess with the fact that you must see that this is an irrefutable fact, otherwise you would at least try to refute it. If it is true that Abraham was justified twice (and it is), that would naturally lead to the fact that he needed to be justified twice, so he lost his initial justification. Don't you think this is a significant point? Third, I can't decide whether you don't understand the point and so don't consider it important or you do understand and think you are above the "average person" in understanding. I can tell you, Rollo, there is a picture of me in the dictionary under the term "average person" and I have a pretty good grasp of this topic. It ain't rocket surgery.
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If I don't understand what you are saying, does that change my salvation?
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Who cares how many times you think Abraham was justified.
The average person would never understand anyway.
So I guess it's not really important, is it?
Click to expand...

If the average person, thinks they are saved no matter what they do, or how they act, or whatever lifestyle they live, because they were taught once they are saved they are always saved, then when they stand before Jesus on the Day of judgement and hear these words from Him... Depart from Me you cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

I'll bet it will be very important then, but unfortunately it will be too late.


JLB
 
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