The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

That's a good point. What exactly do you think the argument is?

If you're asking me, the premise is, was Abraham justified twice. If he was, that means he needed to be, therefore we can lose justification. It's not a once for all deal.

 

[childeye]

If you're asking me, the premise is, was Abraham justified twice. If he was, that means he needed to be, therefore we can lose justification. It's not a once for all deal.

Have you considered that he was simply a just person?

 

[dadof10]

Have you considered that he was simply a just person?

Do you mean that he was simply righteous by his own merits, born that way, and God just recognized it?

 

[childeye]

Do you mean that he was simply righteous by his own merits, born that way, and God just recognized it?

Yes, that merit being attributed to faith in God. Same as Job being called "upright" by God.

 

[dadof10]

Yes, that merit being attributed to faith in God. Same as Job being called "upright" by God.

I do think that righteousness is infused into the person, that God actually makes a person just, not just looks at him as just. I would balk at a theology that has God creating some people for Heaven and some for Hell (if this is where you are going). I reject both Luther's "snow covered dung heap" and Calvin's "Unconditional Election". Neither are Biblical.

 

[turnorburn]

This is how it reads in my bible..

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

tob

 

[childeye]

I do think that righteousness is infused into the person, that God actually makes a person just, not just looks at him as just. I would balk at a theology that has God creating some people for Heaven and some for Hell (if this is where you are going). I reject both Luther's "snow covered dung heap" and Calvin's "Unconditional Election". Neither are Biblical.

No need to assume I know where I'm going with this. Let the conversation go where it goes.

This much I know, that God is Love. Infused is a term that may have some implications I am not aware of, so I am not sure how to apply it. As far as I know, we are born experiencing Love as a vital component of our being. For example, I observe that children who are loved, know a security that promotes both a mental and spiritual well-being. As I have said before, the fall of man is precipitated by the subtle presentation of a premise that implies God is self serving.

 

[dadof10]

This is how it reads in my bible..

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

tob

What a coincidence, mine too. Although mine has much more to say on the subject of justification.

 

[turnorburn]

What a coincidence, mine too. Although mine has much more to say on the subject of justificstion.

And we owe it all to Jesus..

tob

 

[dadof10]

No need to assume I know where I'm going with this. Let the conversation go where it goes.

This much I know, that God is Love. Infused is a term that may have some implications I am not aware of, so I am not sure how to apply it. As far as I know, we are born experiencing Love as a vital component of our being. For example, I observe that children who are loved, know a security that promotes both a mental and spiritual well-being. As I have said before, the fall of man is precipitated by the subtle presentation of a premise that implies God is self serving.

How so?

 

[childeye]

How so?

Satan says God is not being truthful when saying that we will die if we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Satan implies that God is keeping us down by telling us not to partake of the thing that would make us His equal. Genesis 3:4-5.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ok. I guess you're done here, then?

Don't know.
I'll reread your last post and maybe makes some comments.

 

[smaller]

If only. Then we could go over and visit His Son. "Can Jesus come out and play?"

Seriously, who has not sat down with Jesus and reasoned with Him?

I do this daily. Seriously. No holds barred discussions. Mostly me whining about things I struggle with, and asking, what's up? Show me. And they come through for the most part.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I would consider this a "normal" relationship. I'm a kid. Show me. Tell me. I'm listening.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Not justified by faith alone..." let that sink in, Jethro.

'Justified' has two distinct Biblcal definitions.
If you want to talk about the definition James uses--the showing of one to have faith--then you are right on target.

"I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18 NASB)

That is indeed a process as we do more and more acts of faith as we grow up into Christ that show our faith . But that is not the justification Paul talks about concerning the justification that occurs when one has their sins forgiven through faith in the blood of Christ.

Perhaps your biggest problem is not knowing that 'justified' has two meanings, as I tried to explain. I even shared the Vine's and Strong's material about it, but it must have went right past you(?)

 

[smaller]

Have you considered that he was simply a just person?

Sometimes I just want to applaud.

It's not hard to look at the world and see people on a dead end trail. Abraham saw no differently than we do.

Genesis 20:11
And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.

Who among us hasn't had this same thought? Many times, even.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I suppose that would "rule out discussion" on the topic of faith alone. It's false. James says so, end of discussion, it's really that simple. That's fine with you, right?

Yes, as long as you're arguing according to the definition James is using in his teaching, there is no argument: You must also be justified in regard to your faith being shown in your works, not just justified in regard to your faith making you legally righteous before God.

" What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14 NASB)
"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. " (James 2:24 NASB)

The faith that justifies all by itself, making a person legally righteous before God, is also the faith that justifies in regard to showing a person to be righteous by what they do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To the exegesis (it's really not mine) of the verses in Heb. 11 and Gen. 12 I presented, I got crickets from you.

If you heard crickets, it's because you were listening to them instead of listening to what I said about both those passages. That should be a warning sign to you (it is to me). When a person can't hear what is being said they prolly don't have ears to hear.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You just keep bringing up Heb. 10:14 as the trump card on this topic when it just isn't. It is an absolutely valid interpretation to say that this verse refers to those in Heaven who are sanctified, which is why they are "perfected for all time", that is the context.

The passage is referring to those who are 'being' sanctified:

"14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV)

A simple check in Strong's shows that the NIV is properly rendering the verb as 'are being': https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/heb/10/1/t_conc_1143014
http://ezraproject.com/id27.html

So, besides the verse not being in the context of departed souls, but of the living, the present tense verb indicates this is referring to mortal believers in the process of becoming more and more 'set apart' in their behavior, and not the departed spirits of believers who are no longer in the process of sanctification by virtue of not being in the flesh anymore.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If the average person, thinks they are saved no matter what they do, or how they act, or whatever lifestyle they live, because they were taught once they are saved they are always saved, then when they stand before Jesus on the Day of judgement and hear these words from Him... Depart from Me you cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

I'll bet it will be very important then, but unfortunately it will be too late.


JLB

Are you saying that one must have the intelligence to understand how many times Abraham was justified or else they may not be saved?
Because that was my point.
Can you give a yes or no answer to this?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Do you mean are ignorant of facts, or are incapable of understanding the argument?

Does it matter?
Either way, your answer would be very judgmental.