The Process Of Justification

[Jethro Bodine]

how ridiculous it would be to interpret how Noah "became heir of the righteousness which is by faith", a faith that justified, but the very next word "By faith..." means a dead faith.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Noah's faith had works attached, so it was by definition not a dead faith.

You have refused to "engage" on the fact that even though it doesn't say Rahab was justified in the text of Heb. 11, James tells us she was, which proves that the author of Hebrews didn't feel the need to have to tell us which of the "elders" were and were not justified. All of them were, so your argument that "it doesn't say" he was justified, is mute.

The argument is not that those listed in Hebrews 11 were not justified. The argument is, we only know when his faith culminated in a declaration of righteousness by the time he gets to Genesis 15:6. Hebrews 11 doesn't give us that information. Genesis 15 does. Hebrews 11 is how we know for sure he started having commendable faith at least as early as when he left his homeland. A faith that resulted in a declaration of righteousness by the time he gets to Genesis 15.

We know for sure that he was justified by his faith because God plainly said so in Genesis 15:6. It doesn't say he was justified anywhere else. Neither Genesis nor Hebrews 11 say that. It's impossible to get a doctrine of progressive, repeated justification out of those passages. And any implication of a repeated justification drawn from these accounts of Abraham's faith is quickly put to rest by the fact that the Bible says justification--being made legally perfect in righteousness before God--is a one-time thing that happens for "all time" (Hebrews 10:14 NASB).

A further study of Hebrews shows us the nature of this perfect right standing with God granted to those who take the sacrifice of Jesus to the Father through faith. The point of which is, it takes away the guilt of the sin nature (Hebrews 9:13-14), not just forgives the sin you have committed to date. The sacrifice separates you from the ongoing guilt and resultant separation of the sin nature. That's how Christ's sacrifice makes us legally righteous and guilt free, forever, in God's sight, all the while we struggle to live up to that new right standing before God in our daily behavior. Comprendo?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And most recently, you have refused to "engage" on Rom. 4:13 where Paul specifically says that in Gen. 12, when the promise was made "through the righteousness of faith", Abraham received the promise through faith (as Heb. 11 says), and he was then justified. This is what it means.

What you are trying to say it means each and every instance of faith, even commendable faith (the subject of Hebrews 11), results in justification. Besides that defying the very definition of justification, it is easily dispelled by the fact that believing that "the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible", an example of faith the author gives in Hebrews 11:3, hardly makes a person righteous. Surely it is commendable faith, as the author says, but it is not faith that justifies. So we know that the point of Hebrews 11 is not to list all the faith that justifies as you are suggesting.

What you're failing to understand--perhaps because of your own specific road to salvation--is that Abraham's faith culminated in a declaration of righteousness. Each successive revelation of God's word, that he could not know was true on his own, and which he responded to in believing, as proven by the actions he took, finally culminated in him being declared righteous by God. And as I've said, I don't think it's any accident that it happened with the final piece of revelation--the promise of a son. It was at that point of all his believing that God then declared him righteous.

Many of us have a similar calling that Abraham received, which we responded to in faith in some way over and over again, but which did not culminate in an actual, official declaration of right standing with God until we heard the specifics about the promised Son. It was not enough that I began to hate my sin and the sin of the world and started thinking about the Kingdom of Righteousness to come that I had heard about. Though commendable, that's not the faith that justifies. It was not enough to even get out of bed, or tune into the television to learn about and go to this land God had promised. Though commendable, that's still not the faith that justifies. But when my longing for a "city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10) led me to the knowledge of the Son, and I believed it, that is when my faith culminated in a declaration of righteousness. THAT is the faith that justifies. This is why I think Abraham, specifically, is the father and example of our faith. Because he was justified when he heard and believed the promise of a son in Genesis 15:6, not when he left his homeland, as faithful and commendable as that was.

 

[JLB]

Are you saying that one must have the intelligence to understand how many times Abraham was justified or else they may not be saved?
Because that was my point.
Can you give a yes or no answer to this?

Abraham was justified by his obedience to the voice of God.

That's the point the scriptures make.

Those who read the plain and clear words of scripture and ignore them, in favor of what their itching ears want to hear, have set themselves up for deception, to the point where they can't hear the truth, and don't want to.


JLB

 

[JLB]

'Justified' has two distinct Biblcal definitions.
If you want to talk about the definition James uses--the showing of one to have faith--then you are right on target.

Not biblical definitions.
Definitions from a man made commentary.

Faith and the divine result it produces, must have the corresponding action of obedience or it does not produce anything, being dead.

That is the principle that the bible teaches.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not biblical definitions.
Definitions from a man made commentary.

We can just go by what James himself says:

"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”" (James 2:18 NASB)

Right from the context itself we know James is talking about showing yourself to have the righteousness that comes from faith. As you can see for yourself James uses plain words to show us what he's talking about. He's obviously not talking about becoming righteous apart from works as Paul teaches that different subject of justification in Romans 4:6 ("to whom God credits righteousness apart from works").

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Abraham was justified by his obedience to the voice of God.

That's the point the scriptures make.

Those who read the plain and clear words of scripture and ignore them, in favor of what their itching ears want to hear, have set themselves up for deception, to the point where they can't hear the truth, and don't want to.


JLB

Well good for Abraham, lah-de-dah.
As if I didn't know.
Now what's this about Abraham being justified over and over all over the place and what's that got to do with the price of eggs?

 

[dadof10]

Satan says God is not being truthful when saying that we will die if we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Satan implies that God is keeping us down by telling us not to partake of the thing that would make us His equal. Genesis 3:4-5.

Oh that's right. I had forgotten. We're equal to God, "equivocation" and all that. We went down this road already. You and I can not even talk about Abraham and how he was justified without first having an entire conversation about sin, the need for justification and the nature of Man. These things are taken for granted when I talk to Jethro, JLB, Rollo and all the other mainline Christians here. With those people, a Catholic like me may not be on the same page, but at least we're in the same book. You and I are in different libraries and I really don't have the time to understand your theological construct, apply it to my take on Abraham and discuss it without talking by each other. Maybe another time. Thanks anyway.

 

[dadof10]

'Justified' has two distinct Biblcal definitions.
If you want to talk about the definition James uses--the showing of one to have faith--then you are right on target.

"I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18 NASB)

That is indeed a process as we do more and more acts of faith as we grow up into Christ that show our faith . But that is not the justification Paul talks about concerning the justification that occurs when one has their sins forgiven through faith in the blood of Christ.

Perhaps your biggest problem is not knowing that 'justified' has two meanings, as I tried to explain. I even shared the Vine's and Strong's material about it, but it must have went right past you(?)

Right past me? LOL...My reason for posting about James 2 went right past you. Do you really think I was introducing a discussion about James all of a sudden? The reason I posted this was because it could be looked upon as a "trump verse" on the nature of justification, and that you would find it annoying if someone simply kept posting it and saying "see, it's not open for discussion" without "engaging" in your exegesis of other verses that proved the point of the OP. What you have repeatedly done on this thread is ignore the actual verses that I'm posting and say the nature of justification is such that my take on Abraham must be impossible. Your failure to "engage" on the many verses I have posted in Heb. 11 and Rom. 4:12-13 speaks volumes about the exegesis here and that it actually is irrefutable, especially since you see the futility in even trying.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let me leave you with this as an exegesis of Heb. 10:14, your "trump verse".

"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." (Phl 3:8-12 NASB)

Not the language of a man who considers himself to have "been made perfect" on this earth, nor one who has already attained the resurrection of the dead.

Right. Paul was a man who did not consider himself to have been made perfect in his behavior on this earth, but surely one who considered himself to stand guilt free and justified before God just as if he was perfect in behavior, and so was 'perfect' in that sense. It's the legal perfection that Christ bought with his blood and gave to all who have believed on his sacrifice:

"For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Hebrews 9:13-14 NASB)

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit...so that having been justified by his grace (this washing of rebirth), we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5,7 NIV)

"A person who has had a bath (see above) needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean..." (John 13:10 NIV)

See? The scriptures speak very clearly of justification--that is, rebirth--being a one-time event, not a series of repeated justifications. What gets repeated over and over again is the necessity for our feet (not our whole body) to be washed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you have repeatedly done on this thread is ignore the actual verses that I'm posting and say the nature of justification is such that my take on Abraham must be impossible. Your failure to "engage" on the many verses I have posted in Heb. 11 and Rom. 4:12-13 speaks volumes about the exegesis here and that it actually is irrefutable, especially since you see the futility in even trying.

I took this morning to restate the many arguments I have already made against your doctrine and to add to them, directly addressing the passages you cite. How is it possible for you to continue to insist that I haven't engaged you and did not even try? What I will find futile from this point on is making you see that I have done that.

It's amazing that you can't see that I'm plainly and openly addressing your arguments. You're showing me you're too interested and locked into your own doctrine to hear, let alone accept, doctrines that oppose yours. I'm learning (slowly, lol) to simply not waste too much time with people in this forum who demonstrate this inability to even hear your arguments, let alone accept them. I honestly thought you were different.

 

[dadof10]

If you heard crickets, it's because you were listening to them instead of listening to what I said about both those passages. That should be a warning sign to you (it is to me). When a person can't hear what is being said they prolly don't have ears to hear.

You have made exactly one comment (that I remember) concerning Heb. 11 as a whole, and that was an attempt to refute my point that "the entire chapter is about justifying faith". In response, you posted v.3 which says:

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (KJV)

Your point was that this is not a description of justifying faith and (I guess), therefore within the chapter there are examples of "dead faith"? I countered that this verse was partially the definition of justifying faith because without believing that God is the Creator, how could you have justifying faith in the first place? And your response was ....crickets.

You have not "engaged" on v.4, which mentions Abel was "righteous", nor on v.7 which calls Noah an "heir of the righteousness which is by faith" (more on this verse and that the words "by faith" immediately follow it later). You have not "engaged" on how Rom. 4:12-13 refers to Gen. 12 and so, proves my point. If you have and I just missed it, please link the post and I'll go back and respond.

 

[LovethroughDove]

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit...so that having been justified by his grace (this washing of rebirth), we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5,7 NIV)

"A person who has had a bath (see above) needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean..." (John 13:10 NIV)

Wow. You just gave me revelation with the washing of the feet. I wanted to ask about this, cause this is one of the only things I don't understand.

What if, we are reborn clean (our body) when we are born again. But, we will be stepping in some stuff afterward (just a little dirt) and if we confess that Jesus is: 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

John 13:8 "No, said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part of me."

Just a little dirt gets on us after our cleansing, but he will keep washing if we confess. (just a little dirt though)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wow. You just gave me revelation with the washing of the feet. I wanted to ask about this, cause this is one of the only things I don't understand.

What if, we are reborn clean (our body) when we are born again. But, we will be stepping in some stuff afterward (just a little dirt) and if we confess that Jesus is: 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

John 13:8 "No, said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part of me."

Just a little dirt gets on us after our cleansing, but he will keep washing if we confess. (just a little dirt though)

What a joy! A person with ears that can hear, and eyes that can see! You are blessed, dear sister.

This Spirit of revelation, it's like a balm poured forth that brings comfort and healing and blessedness, isn't it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (KJV)

Your point was that this is not a description of justifying faith and (I guess), therefore within the chapter there are examples of "dead faith"?

No, my point was the chapter was about commendable faith, not that any and all faith justifies as you are contending.

 

[LovethroughDove]

What a joy! A person with ears that can hear, and eyes that can see! You are blessed, dear sister.

This Spirit of revelation, it's like a balm poured forth that brings comfort and healing and blessedness, isn't it?

For sure I will be blessed with this puzzle piece being added. Eternally grateful to you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you really think I was introducing a discussion about James all of a sudden? The reason I posted this was because it could be looked upon as a "trump verse" on the nature of justification, and that you would find it annoying if someone simply kept posting it and saying "see, it's not open for discussion" without "engaging" in your exegesis of other verses that proved the point of the OP.

James 2:24 is a "trump verse". It's not open for honest debate. I explained this in post #396.
The problem comes in when a person takes a 'trump verse' and decides they're going to improperly redefine words, alter context, etc. to rob it of it's status as a 'trump' verse. That's what you did with Hebrews 10:14. And, that's what many people do with James 2:24, and which I thoroughly resist. So you have no argument here that somehow I accept Hebrews 10:14 as a trump verse, but not James 2:24.

 

[childeye]

Oh that's right. I had forgotten. We're equal to God, "equivocation" and all that. We went down this road already. You and I can not even talk about Abraham and how he was justified without first having an entire conversation about sin, the need for justification and the nature of Man. These things are taken for granted when I talk to Jethro, JLB, Rollo and all the other mainline Christians here. With those people, a Catholic like me may not be on the same page, but at least we're in the same book. You and I are in different libraries and I really don't have the time to understand your theological construct, apply it to my take on Abraham and discuss it without talking by each other. Maybe another time. Thanks anyway.

If we don't understand the cause of the fall, nor do we understand how we are healed, nor what we are healed from. In this case, a doubt in the motives of our Maker, through the acceptance of a false premise introduced to the innocent and gullible.

In application to Abraham it is quite simple. Abraham trusted God which was counted as righteousness. Let me say it another way. Abraham saw nothing plausible or logical in the reasoning that his Maker, Who formed the universe, shared His breathe and made mankind out of the dust of the ground, should be counted as someone who doesn't know better than the thing God had made alive and sentient out of the dust from the ground.

Notice this scripture Romans 1:17. "The just shall live by faith". This means that they who are already just in their measures of weighing true from false, right from wrong, will have faith in God as a matter of proper order. Why? Because God equipped mankind with this ability as an attribute of His life giving breathe. God would not equip mankind with any mechanism that would promote cynicism of God.

 

[dadof10]

The passage is referring to those who are 'being' sanctified:

"14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV)

A simple check in Strong's shows that the NIV is properly rendering the verb as 'are being': https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/heb/10/1/t_conc_1143014
http://ezraproject.com/id27.html

So, besides the verse not being in the context of departed souls, but of the living, the present tense verb indicates this is referring to mortal believers in the process of becoming more and more 'set apart' in their behavior,

It's both "are sanctified" and "are being sanctified", depending on context. You were fine with the KJV and the NASB (which you always use here), which both say "are sanctified" in the last three(?) posts. Now, when you have it pointed out to you that "are sanctified" refers to the afterlife, you want to switch versions in an attempt to change meaning. I guess when you read what follows, you'll switch it back?

and not the departed spirits of believers who are no longer in the process of sanctification by virtue of not being in the flesh anymore.

So now it's "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."? Are you going to stick with this one? How can a person be "made perfect forever" by God (a completed act), yet still be in the process of "being made holy" by God? He has already "made them perfect", but He is still in the process of making them holy? A person can be perfect without having their sanctification completed? How so? What would it be called when that sanctification is actually completed, super-perfect?

 

[childeye]

Seriously, who has not sat down with Jesus and reasoned with Him?

I do this daily. Seriously. No holds barred discussions. Mostly me whining about things I struggle with, and asking, what's up? Show me. And they come through for the most part.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I would consider this a "normal" relationship. I'm a kid. Show me. Tell me. I'm listening.

I awake in the middle of the night and we have our discussions. Yes I whine too, impatience with others, the world sucks, etc...I ask Him why it is that I'm supposed to be interceding for others to God, yet it seems more often than not, He is always interceding for others to me?
Or maybe He causes me to realize this and I'm not asking Him anything.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's both "are sanctified" and "are being sanctified", depending on context. You were fine with the KJV and the NASB (which you always use here), which both say "are sanctified" in the last three(?) posts. Now, when you have it pointed out to you that "are sanctified" refers to the afterlife, you want to switch versions in an attempt to change meaning. I guess when you read what follows, you'll switch it back?

That was for your sake. I have no problem with 'are sanctified' referring to us in our mortal bodies.

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1 NASB)

In our human bodies we are in the process of sanctification in regard to actually acting like the set apart (sanctified) vessels of honor that God appointed us to be.