I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Noah's faith had works attached, so it was by definition not a dead faith.
So did Abraham's in Gen. 12.
The argument is not that those listed in Hebrews 11 were not justified. The argument is, we only know when his faith culminated in a declaration of righteousness by the time he gets to Genesis 15:6. Hebrews 11 doesn't give us that information. Genesis 15 does. Hebrews 11 is how we know for sure he started having commendable faith at least as early as when he left his homeland. A faith that resulted in a declaration of righteousness by the time he gets to Genesis 15.
We know for sure that he was justified by his faith because God plainly said so in Genesis 15:6. It doesn't say he was justified anywhere else. Neither Genesis nor Hebrews 11 say that. It's impossible to get a doctrine of progressive, repeated justification out of those passages. And any implication of a repeated justification drawn from these accounts of Abraham's faith is quickly put to rest by the fact that the Bible says justification--being made legally perfect in righteousness before God--is a one-time thing that happens for "all time" (Hebrews 10:14 NASB).
A further study of Hebrews shows us the nature of this perfect right standing with God granted to those who take the sacrifice of Jesus to the Father through faith. The point of which is, it takes away the guilt of the sin nature (Hebrews 9:13-14), not just forgives the sin you have committed to date. The sacrifice separates you from the ongoing guilt and resultant separation of the sin nature. That's how Christ's sacrifice makes us legally righteous and guilt free, forever, in God's sight, all the while we struggle to live up to that new right standing before God in our daily behavior. Comprendo?
I was pretty busy this week and couldn't be as thorough in my posts as I wanted to be. I'll try and give as much detail as I can here.
Paul says that Abraham was justified in Gen. 15:6. He talks about a point in time, he doesn't use the words "Genesis 15:6", he describes the scene in Gen. 15, then says that his faith was "reckoned to him as righteousness".
"
The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. " (Rom. 4:13)
You have already agreed that Paul is laying out a chronology of Abraham's faith in Rom. 4, and that this verse refer to Gen. 12, so...
Paul says that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12. He talks about a point in time, he doesn't use the words "Genesis 12". He describes the scene in Gen. 12, then says that the promise, made in Gen. 12 "did not come through the law but through the
righteousness of faith."
Paul says in Rom. 4:13 that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, that's what his accepting the promise "through the righteousness of faith means".
Now, I have explained Heb. 11 over and over, but if it will help you "comprendo" the word of God, I'll lay it out again.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear." (Heb. 11:1-2)
A faith that receives divine approval can't possibly be a "dead faith". You keep using the term "commendable faith", but if you mean a faith that can not justify, then by your own definition, it is "dead". During our discussion of James 2, you repeatedly said that the faith that doesn't justify, the faith that has no works attached, is the faith of the demons. I doubt you would try and make the case that the dead faith of demons "received divine approval".
By this faith, the "men of old" received divine approval. The author will go on to tell us who these "men of old" are and they all have the faith that "received divine approval", unless there is some reason to think otherwise. The same faith. Next verse...
By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking. (Heb. 11:4 RSV)
Here we see that the "approval" spoken of in verse 1 was "approval as righteous". Read that again, Jethro so you will fully understand. By faith Abel offered his sacrifice "through which he received approval as righteous". Now, let's read verse 1b again:
"For by it [faith] the men of old received divine approval."
The faith being spoken of here is
the faith that receives approval as righteous. Let's move on...
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. (ibid. v.6)
Did Enoch have a justifying faith? It certainly doesn't say he did, but, since God "took him" and he "pleased God", my guess would be "yes". So I would say that's two of the "men of old" whose faith justified them, Abel and Enoch. In case you disagree, read on. Next verse...
By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith. (ibid. v.7)
Well, this is pretty obvious. Noah was an "heir of righteousness", which means he was justified. Hummm.... Whose "righteousness" did Noah inherit "by faith"? He was an "heir" of righteousness. It was obviously through Enoch and Abel. So, even if you disagree that Enoch was actually justified even though he was "taken up" by God, the use of the word "heir" should dispel any doubt.
Let's recap so far. We have three "men of old" who received "divine approval" for their obedient faith and who are, beyond a doubt, justified, Abel, Enoch and Noah. The word for the faith that justified them is "
pistis".
Now, the last word in the sentence "heir of the righteousness which comes
by faith" is also the word "
pistis". This is the same word used in the beginning of each verse in Heb. 11, "By faith..." (
pistis).
All of them have meant justifying faith. Please read that again and let it sink in.
Every instance of "By faith..." from Abel to Enoch to Noah has meant justifying faith.
Next verse...
"By faith [pistis] Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go." (ibid. v.7)
So, Noah was "an heir of righteousness which comes by faith". This is obviously a "faith" that justifies. From the beginning of the "men of old" list, the author has used the word "faith" to describe a justifying faith. Every instance of "by faith" he uses means "justifying faith".
To believe that Abel, Enoch and Noah were justified, but Abraham was not, is laughable. The author uses the same word for Abraham's faith that he used in the sentence directly before, the sentence that says Noah "became an
heir of the righteousness which comes by faith."
Irrefutable.
I'm pretty much expecting another reference to Rom. 4 and how the above is "impossible".
