The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

sigh we are only justified the moment we get saved i am only rejecting your misconception ..

You can keep giving your opinion, but until you refute the premise and exegesis on this thread, that's all it is, subjectivity.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you see a difference between "trampling the Son of God underfoot" and "falling away" from the truth?

No.
I do see a difference between utterly defeated in sin but clinging to one's belief and trust in the mercy of God.

Both involve ceasing to have faith

One involves a rejection of the blood of Christ itself, while the other is a lack of faith in God's provision to get us through this life. God has us covered on the latter. We're on our own for the former.

Those who simply "fall away" can be justified again as opposed to those who flat out apostatize.

Generally speaking, this is only true if 'falling away' does not involve a conscious determined decision to walk away from the truth that the blood of Christ is what reconciles us to God. But actually what happens is you retain the justification you had all along, not lose it so as to need to be re-born.

sigh we are only justified the moment we get saved i am only rejecting your misconception ..

I agree. And that's really where the rubber meets the road. At justification we are saved, born again, set apart, and reconciled to God. That is a one time occurrence in which these these occur and do not need to be repeated for the person who continues in the faith that secured that for them. This is what it means to not need another bath in the blood to cleanse us from the sin nature (Hebrews 10:2,10 NIV, Titus 3:5-6 NIV), but to only need our feet washed (John 13:10 NIV). We are "completely clean" already, as Jesus says of those who are his, despite the fact that our feet may need washing. When we sin as Christians in the weakness and ignorance of the flesh we do not become un-saved, or un-born again, or un-reconciled, or un-sanctified such that we need to be all those all over again. What we need, and what God is faithful to do is wash our feet.

But if we sin in regard to abandoning altogether the blood as the source of justification for our sins--an outright denial and trampling of the blood that sanctified us (Hebrews 10:26-29 NIV)--that is what would require us to be re-born, re-sanctified, etc., but which is impossible for God to do as Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches.

 

[ezra]

But if we sin in regard to abandoning altogether the blood as the source of justification for our sins--an outright denial and trampling of the blood that sanctified us (Hebrews 10:26-29 NIV)--that is what would require us to be re-born, re-sanctified, etc., but which is impossible for God to do as Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches.

in the case your speaking of. as per purpose in our heart to walk way and never return. there is a real good chance that person was never saved { , but to only need our feet washed (John 13:10 NIV). We are "completely clean" already, as Jesus says of those who are his, despite the fact that our feet may need washing.} i like this very good

 

[ezra]

You can keep giving your opinion, but until you refute the premise and exegesis on this thread, that's all it is, subjectivity.

you can stay out on that limb all by your self .be my guest your multiple justifications is simply Not BIBLE

 

[JLB]

you can stay out on that limb all by your self .be my guest your multiple justifications is simply Not BIBLE

This is an interesting statement you have made.

So do you believe the first and only time Abraham was justified, was when He offered His son...

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


Please help me to understand your position in this matter.


Thanks JLB

 

[ezra]

Please help me to understand your position in this matter.

done did that numerous times .

 

[dadof10]

No.
I do see a difference between utterly defeated in sin but clinging to one's belief and trust in the mercy of God.


One involves a rejection of the blood of Christ itself, while the other is a lack of faith in God's provision to get us through this life. God has us covered on the latter. We're on our own for the former.


Generally speaking, this is only true if 'falling away' does not involve a conscious determined decision to walk away from the truth that the blood of Christ is what reconciles us to God. But actually what happens is you retain the justification you had all along, not lose it so as to need to be re-born.


I agree. And that's really where the rubber meets the road. At justification we are saved, born again, set apart, and reconciled to God. That is a one time occurrence in which these these occur and do not need to be repeated for the person who continues in the faith that secured that for them. This is what it means to not need another bath in the blood to cleanse us from the sin nature (Hebrews 10:2,10 NIV, Titus 3:5-6 NIV), but to only need our feet washed (John 13:10 NIV). We are "completely clean" already, as Jesus says of those who are his, despite the fact that our feet may need washing. When we sin as Christians in the weakness and ignorance of the flesh we do not become un-saved, or un-born again, or un-reconciled, or un-sanctified such that we need to be all those all over again. What we need, and what God is faithful to do is wash our feet.

But if we sin in regard to abandoning altogether the blood as the source of justification for our sins--an outright denial and trampling of the blood that sanctified us (Hebrews 10:26-29 NIV)--that is what would require us to be re-born, re-sanctified, etc., but which is impossible for God to do as Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches.

Since that is how we were justified in the first place, yes, that will end our justification.

So, if a person stops believing, he ceases to be justified. Will mere lack of faith be enough to never be able to be justified again, or does it have to be blatant apostasy...or do you not see a difference? If a person loses his faith, and therefore his justification because the "care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word", for example, would that be enough to fall under the warnings in Hebrews, or would the person have to reject Christ outright?

 

[dadof10]

you can stay out on that limb all by your self .be my guest your multiple justifications is simply Not BIBLE

More opinion. Try a little exegesis, Ezra.

 

[JLB]

done did that numerous times .

done did what?

I'm asking you a simple question.

I wouldn't be asking you a question if you had answered it.

So do you believe the first and only time Abraham was justified, was when He offered His son...

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

(Edited, ToS 2.2, attempting to sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature. Obadiah)

 

[ezra]

Abraham demonstrated his faith/ . faith w/o works is dead { its does no good to say we have faith and never us it}. we are justified the moment we get saved . so are you saying our works justifies us ? yes i have been all over this thread explaining and no i am not going back over it again. your taking james 2 and wanting to add works

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From Strong's: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Justified is used in the Bible to, both, be 'made' righteous, and be 'shown' to be righteous. Obviously, James is using the word 'justified' in regard to 'showing' one to be righteous, not 'making' one to be righteous. The context plainly shows us that is what he is talking about: " I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

This is in contrast to Paul who uses the word 'justified' to teach how we are 'made' righteous by faith: "having now been justified by His blood" (Romans 5:9 NASB)

To be saved on the Day of Wrath you have to be justified both ways. You have to have faith in Christ, which makes you righteous. That 'cleaning' is a one-time, forever happening of which Jesus says is not necessary to be repeated ("Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean." John 13:10 NIV). And that faith must, by virtue of what it means to be righteous, be seen in the righteous person you have now become. Like having to be wet as an expected and obligatory outcome, and proof, of being in the pool.

 

[JLB]

Abraham demonstrated his faith/ . faith w/o works is dead { its does no good to say we have faith and never us it}. we are justified the moment we get saved . so are you saying our works justifies us ? yes i have been all over this thread explaining and no i am not going back over it again. your taking james 2 and wanting to add works

I didn't ask you to go over anything.

Just to answer a simple yes or no question.

Do you believe the first and only time Abraham was justified was when he offered Issac?

Since you stated that multiple justifications are not in the bible.

 

[MarkT]

If we stop believing, will that stop our justification?

If we stop believing, then we die. If you're dead, you don't have to worry about justification anymore.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[dadof10]

From Strong's: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Justified is used in the Bible to, both, be 'made' righteous, and be 'shown' to be righteous. Obviously, James is using the word 'justified' in regard to 'showing' one to be righteous, not 'making' one to be righteous. The context plainly shows us that is what he is talking about: " I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

This is in contrast to Paul who uses the word 'justified' to teach how we are 'made' righteous by faith: "having now been justified by His blood" (Romans 5:9 NASB)

To be saved on the Day of Wrath you have to be justified both ways. You have to have faith in Christ, which makes you righteous. That 'cleaning' is a one-time, forever happening of which Jesus says is not necessary to be repeated ("Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean." John 13:10 NIV). And that faith must, by virtue of what it means to be righteous, be seen in the righteous person you have now become. Like having to be wet as an expected and obligatory outcome, and proof, of being in the pool.

If faith has to have "works attached" to justify, doesn't that simply mean that if there are no "works" there is no justification, even if there is faith? That would make the faith "dead" and unable to justify, right? So then, it's both/and, not either/or. Aren't we all really saying the same thing here?

On this subject (in a previous thread), you touched upon how you believe that faith is sometimes originally"dead" when they first believe, then when a person "adds works and obedience and faith", that faith then "justifies". At least I think that's how it went. If so, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "only obedient, trusting faith that does works, justifies" instead of "faith alone"?

 

[JLB]

Justified is used in the Bible to, both, be 'made' righteous, and be 'shown' to be righteous. Obviously, James is using the word 'justified' in regard to 'showing' one to be righteous, not 'making' one to be righteous. The context plainly shows us that is what he is talking about: " I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

The believing that saves also must be expressed by an act of faith, or it is dead... like a body without the spirit is dead and can not produce anything.

A sinner who hears the Gospel, must obey the Gospel, that Paul says is calling on the name of the Lord.

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
Romans 10:13-14

and again

...and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Faith without this action of obedience is dead and can not save.


I'm still waiting for you to show me the scripture, that states Abraham was justified in Genesis 15.


Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, which was the first time he was justified, like those who are justified when the hear and obey the Gospel. Ungodly sinners who have received the forgiveness of sins and are made righteous, as if they had never sinned.

Abraham believed God, and it was accredited to him as righteousness.

Abraham was shown to be righteous, when he believed/obeyed God, and left his tent and looked up in the sky, at God's word, and it was accredited to him as righteousness.

This showed Abraham had ears to hear God, [how faith comes], when God said...
“Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:5-6

When Abraham was in his tent, being discouraged about being "childless", and he heard the Lord say...one who will come from your own body... did he remain there in his tent, and just believe in his heart?

But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” Genesis 15:2-4

Did he remain in his tent in discouragement, or did he obey the Lord and get up and go out... and look up, because he believed.

Abraham's act of getting up and going out, and looking up... because he responded to the Lord in faith, is how righteousness was credited to him. His act of believing.

Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:5-6

I personally believe Abraham was justified here in this example of those who walk in the righteousness of faith.
I also believe Abraham was justified for the first time in Genesis 12, leaving for us an example of those who hear and obey the Gospel,

as the scripture says...

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

In you all the nations shall be blessed is a direct quote from Genesis 12.


Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


JLB

 

[dadof10]

If we stop believing, then we die. If you're dead, you don't have to worry about justification anymore.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Do you mean actually cease to live, like stop breathing?

 

[MarkT]

Do you mean actually cease to live, like stop breathing?

Yes. The dead are dead. They are no longer alive.

 

[childeye]

This thread is an exercise in semantic futility. We are, or become spiritually, what we believe in, as pertains to God. Therefore, the way I look at it, is that sin entered into mankind through ignorance of who God is as a Person. This means mankind was vulnerable to unbelief, distrust, which is what facilitated disobedience. So it is that through belief in the Christ, and his life giving death in our place, there is justification, because it shows that the unbelief in God wherein sin entered into mankind was through ignorance and not through knowledge. Romans 5:19.

 

[smaller]

The process of justification, brought to us by the members of the council of Trent.. not by the word of God..

tob

rat ta tat tat

Who in their right mind tries to smear Abraham as an unbeliever?

This thread is absurdity. I wouldn't even consider such a sight even 'christian.'

Who's next? Jesus? Was Jesus devoid of faith, and had to be "re-justified?"

Such nonsense.