The Process Of Justification

[JLB]

I guess that means you don't have any scripture to share with us, that shows Abraham wasn't justified in Genesis 12.


JLB

 

[ezra]

nahhh just means not worth the effort . (Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah.)

 

[dadof10]

Yes. The dead are dead. They are no longer alive.

Yeah...OK. You know there are apostates who are living, right? There are people walking around breathing who were once devout Christians and now hate Christ.

 

[dadof10]

Who in their right mind tries to smear Abraham as an unbeliever?

This thread is absurdity. I wouldn't even consider such a sight even 'christian.'

Who's next? Jesus? Was Jesus devoid of faith, and had to be "re-justified?"

Such nonsense.

This just shows how tiny of a grasp you have on what the argument actually is. At the beginning of this thread I tried to get a simple yes or no answer out of you on whether you thought Abraham was justified in Gen. 12. You still haven't answered because your, shall we say "unique", doctrine that states every person is possessed by satan, gets in the way of any common sense argument anyone, including myself, can make. To actually have a conversation with you over ANY doctrinal point is pointless because you would have to completely convert to a mainline Protestant denomination (or I would have to convert to your "unique" religion) before we could even be on the same page.

 

[smaller]

This just shows how tiny of a grasp you have on what the argument actually is. At the beginning of this thread I tried to get a simple yes or no answer out of you on whether you thought Abraham was justified in Gen. 12. You still haven't answered because your, shall we say "unique", doctrine

In case you missed it my first post in this thread devoted a considerable number of scriptures regarding our justification being "in Christ" as a "past/present" tense application.

I understand that it was a convenient bypass on your end, of those citings.

that states every person is possessed by satan, gets in the way of any common sense argument anyone, including myself, can make.

I have no "special" understandings on what I cite from scriptures. They speak for themselves.

I do however point out quite frequently that it is utterly pointless to try to remedy the factual contrariness that "scriptures" state exists between the Spirit and the flesh. And, I likewise "examine" the conditions of why this is for the flesh on the basis of scripture. Whether it's acknowledged or accepted, the fact is that the flesh is subject to lusts and temptations of the tempter. Any attempt to justify the workings of lusts and temptations is futile and it is equally futile to (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) say we don't all have that malady of the flesh.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, do not refer to other members as liars. Obadiah)

 

[reba]

hey guys things are getting personal

 

[dadof10]

Allow me to stop you right there:
Faith does not have to have works attached to justify. Faith does that all by itself. The proper argument is, the faith that justifies (all by itself) will have works attached.

So it is in that sense that the faith that justifies is the faith that works. John says it this way: "9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." (1 John 3:9 NIV). Works follow the born again experience, because that's what born again people who now have the righteous nature of Christ in them through their faith do.

And if it has no "works attached" it is not a faith that justifies, correct?

 

[dadof10]

That is what I believe because Hebrews speaks of the effectiveness of Jesus' ministry being in the fact that "he always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25 NIV). The implication from the passage being that if his ministry ever ceased, so would that which it accomplishes cease. So if Christ's ministry which is applied to our account by our faith stops because we don't believe and trust in it anymore, so will what it accomplishes for us also cease. Just as if he had stopped living and was not able to continue to intercede on our behalf.

If you mean the common struggle of the weak and/or ignorant believer, 'no', that will not stop the work of Christ's justifying blood on our behalf (thank God). When we are faithless (but still believing) Christ remains faithful (2 Timothy 2:13). As opposed to actually denying him. In which case Christ will deny us (2 Timothy 2:12). In that case we don't belong to him anymore that he would have some kind of an obligation to not deny his own body as he did when we did belong to him.

That is part of it, but the "lack of faith" I see EVERYWHERE goes further, but not to outright apostasy, which is what I think the author of Hebrews is talking about. Some people just kind of fade away (which is a better term than "fall away", I think) from their initial conversion all the time. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matt. 13

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. {Mat 13:19-22 NIV}

I think the verses you posted from Hebrews doesn't refer to people like these. These people are not "trampling on" Christ, just kind of fading away. These people have actually lost their justification by losing their "obedient, trusting faith" but can be justified again because they have not rejected Christ outright.

Yes, it has to be a blatant and willing and knowledgeable denial of Christ, whether that occurs through careless neglect, or an outright rejection of the blood that sanctified the person. So, yes, I see a BIG difference. There is the sin of our daily struggles and doubts, and then there is the entirely different matter of rejecting the grace of God in Christ altogether.

I agree, but I also think there is another "category" which is in between the two. It doesn't seem that Jesus is describing "apostates" nor is he describing the "sin of our daily struggles".

No. He doesn't categorically lose his justification because of the cares of this world, riches, etc. The reason the cares of the world have overcome the person is what determines if he has lost his justification. If he is overcome because of a rejection of Christ, he will indeed lose his justification. If he is overcome because of weakness and ignorance he remains Christ's and Christ remains faithful to his own.

Don't the words "last only as short time" and "quickly fall away" refer to accepting "the word" and imply (that word again ) that the person stops believing? And if he stops believing, he stops being justified, right? But, he has not apostatized, so doesn't fall under the condemnations of Hebrews. That's the way I see it.

 

[dadof10]

The gospel is so awesome.
It's like a beautiful song that fills the soul.
Thank you, God, for the greatest news mankind has ever heard.

 

[turnorburn]

Yeah...OK. You know there are apostates who are living, right? There are people walking around breathing who were once devout Christians and now hate Christ.

What do you mean by once devout Christians, how about these folks.. were they considered to be once devout?

http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

tob

 

[dadof10]

In regard to the emboldened part: No works signify there WAS no justification, not 'will be no' justification. John says it this way: "8 the one who practices sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8 NASB).
IOW, the unrighteous person is simply showing himself to have never been justified by the blood of Christ, while the person growing up into the righteous acts of Christ (even if ever so slowly) is showing himself to have indeed already been justified and made righteous by the blood of Christ.

In regard to "even if there is faith", the person who says they have faith but has no discernible pattern or lifestyle of righteous works is deceived. They do not have the faith that justifies even though they may claim they do. Faith without works is like saying you went swimming but remain bone dry. Those who have been baptized into the Christ via the Holy Spirit will exhibit some kind of evidence of that submersion, even if it's only negligible in the beginning. Don't be deceived: You can't become a new creation without that new nature becoming evident somewhere somehow: "Make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:7-8 NASB bold mine)

Remember what we are talking about here. It's not about whether a person has to have "works attached" to their obedient, trusting faith at initial justification, but that if the "works" cease and the "obedience" ceases and the "trust" ceases won't the justification cease also? If all a person has left is "dead faith" because the conversion "last{s} only a short time" or because their obedient trusting faith "quickly fall{s} away" there are only two options. Either he loses his justification through something other than outright apostasy or "dead faith" still justifies.

 

[dadof10]

Who in their right mind tries to smear Abraham as an unbeliever?

This thread is absurdity. I wouldn't even consider such a sight even 'christian.'

Who's next? Jesus? Was Jesus devoid of faith, and had to be "re-justified?"

Such nonsense.

i have a hard time even to begin to understand all this multiple justification. all most sound like the 12 step program in alcoholics anonymous

All of you can think what you want about "this thread" and the irrefutable Biblical logic contained within, but until you actually take a stab at exegesis of the verses provided that prove Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, you are all simply engaging in opinionated rock throwing. The only person who has stepped up and tried here is Jethro Bodine. I don't think he succeeded, but at least he gave us some food for thought and earned some respect. All you have to do is take the verses mentioned in the OP and explain how my view is wrong, that's all. Until you do that you will shine no light on your view because the premise still stands.

 

[smaller]

All of you can think what you want about "this thread" and the irrefutable Biblical logic contained within, but until you actually take a stab at exegesis of the verses provided that prove Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, you are all simply engaging in opinionated rock throwing. The only person who has stepped up and tried here is Jethro Bodine. I don't think he succeeded, but at least he gave us some food for thought and earned some respect. All you have to do is take the verses mentioned in the OP and explain how my view is wrong, that's all. Until you do that you will shine no light on your view because the premise still stands.

There is no basis to condemn anyone with faith in Christ as their Savior.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[dadof10]

In case you missed it my first post in this thread devoted a considerable number of scriptures regarding our justification being "in Christ" as a "past/present" tense application.

I understand that it was a convenient bypass on your end, of those citings.

Your "citings" didn't address the verses I posted at all, as anyone can see here. The Process Of Justification

It was just a bunch of verses mingled with your typical we-are-possessed-by-demons-so-aren't-responsible-for-our-own-actions rhetoric.

When you're ready to actually address the OP, let me know, thanks.

 

[smaller]

Your "citings" didn't address the verses I posted at all, as anyone can see here. The Process Of Justification

It was just a bunch of verses mingled with your typical we-are-possessed-by-demons-so-aren't-responsible-for-our-own-actions rhetoric.

When you're ready to actually address the OP, let me know, thanks.

Colossians 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[dadof10]

Colossians 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Might I ask you a personal question, totally off topic? Why do you quote Nietzsche in your Signature?

“In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” – Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[smaller]

Might I ask you a personal question, totally off topic? Why do you quote Nietzsche in your Signature?

“In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” – Friedrich Nietzsche

Some like to find any cause possible to condemn. It's a form of group insanity in many cases.

 

[dadof10]

Some like to find any cause possible to condemn. It's a form of group insanity in many cases.

Ok, so you like the quote? You know he was an anti-Christian, atheist who coined the term "God is dead"?

 

[smaller]

Ok, so you like the quote? You know he was an anti-Christian, atheist who coined the term "God is dead"?

Funny how even unbelievers can speak truthfully on some matters.
Imagine that? Thankfully we don't have to run truthful observations through some other guys sect or we'd still be standing on flat earth.

 

[dadof10]

Funny how even unbelievers can speak truthfully on some matters.
Imagine that? Thankfully we don't have to run truthful observations through some other guys sect or we'd still be standing on flat earth.

You know, the funny part is that this "individual" went insane, which says a lot about his opinion of "groups, parties, nations and epochs". He is looking upon these normal, natural human things with a diseased mind.

Funny "peculiar", not funny "ha-ha". His life was sad, really.