The Process Of Justification

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There is an extreme lack of understanding when people use Hebrews 10 to condemn believers of any sort.

The Rain, the Word of God, falls on both the just and the unjust. Both the righteous and the wicked. That is why the writer of Hebrews, particularly in the verses in question employs the terms of allegory. The writer references this here:

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Yes, the Word of God does fall on the evil conscience IN ALL, as well as the good. And, left unchecked or without recognition, that evil conscience can also grow in adversity to the things and ways of God in deceptions and sin, by the same Word of God. This is why the writer terms these as the activity of the parables in chapter 6:

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The Apostles noted this same fact in many places, as did Jesus. We know for example that the law actually lends the power of adversity to sin, from Paul, here:

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

and here:

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

And Paul shows this "knowledge" of sin, and the power of that sin has under the law in his own flesh/mind, here. And yes, this happened IN Paul's own flesh/mind. If any person is 'honest' they will instantly make the same discovery that Paul did:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

That, right there, is the operation of sin indwelling Paul, reacting in adversity to the LAW, the Word of God. And yes, it is a very REAL internal fact.

IF that Word of God, which DOES empower sin, grows in the ground, it will produce adversarily to the things of God in MANY ways. One of those ways that the writer of Hebrews directs us to is the claim of INSUFFICIENCY to Christ's Work and His Cross, again noted by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 10, here:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Noted also in chapter 6, same activity:

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There was only ONE SUFFICIENT SACRIFICE. And no, it is not and was not "ours."

But, the Heavenly Rain, The Spiritual Manna, The Word of God, can and does make indwelling sin grow in our own ground in the form of deception. This is a direct result of the evil conscience, activated to RESIST the sufficiency of God's sacrifice, noted above.

The voice that says "you can lose it" is in fact the voice of denial of the Cross and His Sufficiency and His Seed in them, which will be harvested to Heaven, regardless of claims to the contrary.

We can not and do not "make God in Christ" by our own works.

What does God say to Paul in this matter, when he bewailed to God, three times, about his own internal struggle with the adversary, the messenger of Satan, the "thorn" in his own flesh? God's Voice is cuttingly CLEAR:

2 Cor. 12:
he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

God's Desire is to have HIS MERCY. Is God in "need" of "our work" to "get" His Mercy? Sorry. Mercy reigns, eternal, regardless.

His Mercy resides on our weakness.

Every believer has "thorns and briars" that WILL be rejected.

 

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Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, 15, and 22.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


JLB

Not without Christ in him. Which is the claim all of you try quite vainly to prove.

The father of faith, Abraham, had Christ in Him. No one could remove Christ in him for all of the babbling vain attempts to do so in the world. There never was an Abraham justifying himself to start with:

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[dadof10]

Yep.


Trying to 'sensationalize' sin being of the devil isn't going to change the fact that sin is of the devil or change the fact that "all" are sinners.


There are two separate parties in view in that sight. Only 1 is saved. And that, from the "other" party. That is the finality of salvation, when we are "separated" from our enemies into the Body of Christ. In the meantime, we suffer with them in the same tent of flesh.



Trying to make the tempter legal, obedient, saved, under grace, forgiven, faithful, or anything else Godly is an entire waste of time. God knows how we're put together. We aren't fooling Him by trying to put a cover on our internal adversary.

Paul did an excellent job "exposing" himself, and thoroughly explains how sin operates in himself. He does an identical job, basing that understanding with the life of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael,

EXPLAINING that Ishmael, like Isaac, is also figurative of the FLESH which can not be part of the family of God in Christ.

4 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

It's the same statement, repeated, here:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Abraham had two sons. They were both figurative of Abraham himself. The old man and the new man in Christ. The former was lost.

When we are "saved" we are "divided" from our internal enemy, and called to rule OVER, in essence, the tempter who operated internally, blinding us prior to salvation. 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

We're not about to save that party no matter what is done by works.

Do human beings "have tempters within" them, yes or no.

 

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Do human beings "have tempters within" them, yes or no.

Does the tempter tempt? And does the tempter tempt internally, in mind?

Any believer should be able to do their own math on that theological question.

Jesus tells us "how" this works, in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables.

 

[dadof10]

Yes. Abraham was faithful both times. So what?

My argument is with your conclusion. It's not with the author of Hebrews.

Your argument is with neither, because you agree with both of us. If "Abraham was faithful both times", he was justified both times. Wasn't he justified by obedient, trusting faith? Didn't he have obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 12? Therefore, he was justified in Gen. 12. If you also believe that he was justified in Gen. 15:6, when he "believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness", then that makes two. I know this is a foreign concept to most "born again Christians" because you look at justification (being born again) as a one-time-never-to-be-repeated event. But Scripture, highlighted by Abraham, disagrees with you.

 

[dadof10]

Does the tempter tempt? And does the tempter tempt internally, in mind?

Any believer should be able to do their own math on that theological question.

Jesus tells us "how" this works, in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables.

Of course we are tempted by suggestions in the mind, but these demons don't reside within us, like the "Spirit of Christ" does. Whenever the conversation gets around to the topic of sin, you have repeatedly said demons do reside within us, this is a fact. You have repeatedly said that we are not responsible for our own sin, that it's "the tempter inside" who is responsible. Why can't you simply answer "yes" to this question, everyone here knows this is what you believe. This is your pet doctrine.

So, now that it's been established that there is the "Spirit of Christ" and also a "tempter" within each person, your only argument against the possibility of Abraham losing his justification has been rendered illogical. Any other arguments?

 

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Of course we are tempted by suggestions in the mind, but these demons don't reside within us, like the "Spirit of Christ" does.

You can tell yourself that all you want. There is no "one or the other" when it's both.

The fact is, temptation transpires internally, and that places the tempter internal to do so. The "tempter" has been given access to the flesh inclusive of the mind, and that's all there is to this subject.

Since all have sinned Romans 3:23, have sin 1 John 1:8, and sin is of the devil, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, the spiritual math here is unavoidable to the "truthful and faithful." We do not "love" ourselves exactly on this basis, because it's not a question of "just and only us" in our own skin.

There is another party that is not us as believers in view in matters of SIN. The tempter in NO believer will be spared by "works." Nor covered up, except by the attempts of that lying poser to start with.

 

[dadof10]

You can tell yourself that all you want. There is no "one or the other" when it's both.

The fact is, temptation transpires internally, and that places the tempter internal to do so. The "tempter" has been given access to the flesh inclusive of the mind, and that's all there is to this subject.

Since all have sinned Romans 3:23, have sin 1 John 1:8, and sin is of the devil, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, the spiritual math here is unavoidable to the "truthful and faithful." We do not "love" ourselves exactly on this basis, because it's not a question of "just and only us" in our own skin.

There is another party that is not us as believers in view in matters of SIN. The tempter in NO believer will be spared by "works." Nor covered up, except by the attempts of that lying poser to start with.

Then, if it's impossible to lose justification because Christ is within us, it's also impossible to remain justified because there is a demon within us. Your argument is illogical. Do you have anything else?

 

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Paul takes, as his basis, the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael as the basis for understanding "works of the flesh OR the law" for which no believer will be justified, to The Spirit of Promise, of Christ revealed in us.

We are the children of Promise, not works.

Sarah knew she did WRONG in taking God's Words of Promise, and trying to "make it happen" with Hagar, giving Hagar to Abram to have a child. She despised Hagar after her conception, and her own implication in that matter in Gen. 16. They were both WRONG in making this happen, and the results of this "contrariness" of their flesh continues to plague the world to this day in the Middle East.

But Ishmael is a picture of our own contrary flesh works as well, epitomized here, even guaranteed by God's Statement of fact:

Genesis 16:12
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Is Ishmael's hand against you and I? Yes it is. It is the produce of our own contrary flesh, which Paul cited here, using Ishmael as the basis of his sight. It was the Word of God that produced this "contrary" showing in Ishmael, by the carnal mind trying to "make" a son of Promise out of God's Word, when that was never possible to start with.

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This PERSECUTION is not about "some other person" persecuting us as believers. It is our OWN FLESH because of lusts and temptations of the tempter, therein and the SIN that is thereby produced by the carnal flesh/mind.

Paul really hammers this point home, here, showing that the persecution contained in our own flesh is NOT from someone else, but is our own FLESH:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Flesh men can work all they please. This much is SURE:

They'll NEVER produce JESUS by works.

The son of the flesh of everyone of us is in fact DOOMED because of the presence of indwelling sin in the flesh.

Yet, from Abraham's own bowels, also came forth the 'son of promise' as a FIGURE of what was to come in Christ. That is the picture of the SON OF PROMISE contained in each of us, by FAITH. Not a one of us CAN produce the Son of Promise by "works." It can not and will not happen.

 

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Then, if it's impossible to lose justification

There is no justification for the flesh. It is contrary to the Spirit. Again, this is not a one or the other deal. It is impossible to justify the flesh by works. And it is equally impossible to condemn the Son of Promise that we have by faith.

because Christ is within us, it's also impossible to remain justified because there is a demon within us. Your argument is illogical. Do you have anything else?

Divide the parties and you shouldn't have any problem perceiving this matter. You are not your own tempter. And if you think you are, I can assure you NO TEMPTER will be in heaven.

I have honesty. I honestly don't think any works are capable of conjuring up Jesus or by "doing works, making" ourselves into Jesus. That is, to me, an insane sight of theological madmen.

 

[dadof10]

I will give you, both, the actual textual reason in the passage itself, and the overall Biblically contextual reason why Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to a loss of faith as the reason why a believer can be subject to the damnation of the lost, and that the lack of works is simply signatory of that loss of faith.

The passage makes reference to the fact that there "no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" for the willful sinner (Hebrews 10:26 NASB). It isn't that grace can't cover a willful sin, because it certainly can (Acts 13:39) if we ask forgiveness for that sin (1 John 1:9). What grace can't cover is the sin you won't bring to God.

Right, in context, apostasy. Complete rejection of Christ for something (or someone) else, or nothing at all. This certainly would include the loss of faith in Christ, how could it not?

So, the willful sin being spoken of here that brings the condemnation of the unbelieving (vs.27) is the sin that is committed willingly with no thought for the forgiveness of God they have already and can receive for their sin. IOW, an absence of faith and trust in the forgiveness of God. It's sinning arrogantly and carelessly in the face of the grace they have received in Christ and which is always available to them, but which they have chosen to now reject.

Ok. We agree. As I've always said, it's both/and. Faith and deeds, or in this case, faith and rejection of sin.

And in the overall context of the scriptures, Jesus speaks about deeds being the evidence for, or against, our faith in Luke 7.

Ahhh...The old "overall context" argument, eh Chief? "In the overall context" means "the verses teach the opposite of what I'm saying, but here are other Scriptures that don't". The verses say "For if WE go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. (Heb 10:26-27 NASB). It seems, from the actual text here, that if believers ("we") continue in sinful behavior that "insulted the Spirit of grace" then "we" will lose justification ("terrifying expectation of judgment"). Whether you accept this or not, the fact remains that there is no mention that "willful sinning" is "signatory of that loss of faith".

It is there that the sinful woman breaks the alabaster jar of perfume, anointing and kissing the feet of Jesus. He says the reason she loves is because "her sins, which are many, have been forgiven" (vs.47). IOW, her deed is signifying her faith in the forgiveness of God.

Jesus also points out that the person who loves little, loves little because they have been forgiven little (vs. 47). So there is indeed this direct connection between works and faith such that our deeds are the billboard of our faith that advertises the quality and depth of our faith in the forgiveness of Christ. A lack of deeds, or a willful sinning, signifying a loss of faith in the blood of Christ.

Yes, faith and works, or lack of sin, go together. The point is, that Heb. 10:26 shows that it's not faith alone that justifies. The "works part" (or "lack of sin" part) has to be there for continuing justification.

So, Hebrews 10:26-29 is indeed speaking of a loss of faith as the reason why a believer can somehow become subject to the wrath of God once again. It can happen because of a loss of faith as signified in a willful turning away from the only sacrifice for sin there is and back to the sins they had been cleansed from.

No, it doesn't. Heb. 10:26-29 says nothing about losing faith, only about "willfully sinning". Obviously loss of faith goes along with it, otherwise apostasy can't happen, but this verse (and others) show that justification isn't solely based upon faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ahhh...The old "overall context" argument, eh Chief? "In the overall context" means "the verses teach the opposite of what I'm saying, but here are other Scriptures that don't".

It's sad that you did not read my post.
Eventually I stop talking to people who simply can't hear anything except what comes out of their own mouth.
You are real close to being one of those.
Now go back and actually read my post and see l showed you from both the passage itself and the rest of the Bible that what I said is true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Heb. 10:26-29 says nothing about losing faith, only about "willfully sinning".

You're not getting it.
The only way sin, even willful sin, can condemn a person is if they no longer believe in Christ. If they still believed in Christ that sin wouldn't be counted against them. It would be forgiven and erased from the record with no chance of them coming into the judgment of God because of it. It's when you stop having faith in Christ that the warning of sinning in Hebrews 10:26-29 applies.

 

[dadof10]

It's sad that you did not read my post.
Eventually I stop talking to people who simply can't hear anything except what comes out of their own mouth.
You are real close to being one of those.
Now go back and actually read my post and see l showed you from both the passage itself and the rest of the Bible that what I said is true.

All you have to do then, is show me the exact words from the verses in question that say ANYTHING about faith. Isn't that what "from the passage itself" means? Again, I agree that faith is necessary for justification and that there are places within Scripture that teach it, as my post above says. I just don't see anything within the text itself, that says willful sinning is "signatory of that loss of faith". I'll give you another chance. Let me post them again for your convenience.

For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Heb 10:26-27 KJV)

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. (Heb 10:26-27 NASB)

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26-27 NIV)

Where is faith even mentioned here? Where is willful sinning being "signatory of that loss of faith" mentioned? It's not, is it? If you do "eventually stop talking" to me, Jethro, it won't be because I "can't hear anything", but because you can't admit mistakes. To say that "the passage itself" teaches willful sinning is "signatory of that loss of faith" is to make a HUGE mistake. A little humility is needed here.

 

[dadof10]

You're not getting it.
The only way sin, even willful sin, can condemn a person is if they no longer believe in Christ. If they still believed in Christ that sin wouldn't be counted against them. It would be forgiven and erased from the record with no chance of them coming into the judgment of God because of it. It's when you stop having faith in Christ that the warning of sinning in Hebrews 10:26-29 applies.

Where does Heb. 10:26-27 say this? If you want to discuss other verses, fine. You made a bogus claim that you won't admit to. All I'm doing is holding your feet to the fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

this verse (and others) show that justification isn't solely based upon faith.

So this really is a defense of works justification.
Should we expect anything less from a Catholic?

Where does Heb. 10:26-27 say this? If you want to discuss other verses, fine. You made a bogus claim that you won't admit to. All I'm doing is holding your feet to the fire.

I showed you, but perhaps pride is not letting you acknowledge I've been nailing your arguments over and over and over again. You're flailing. You keep grasping for any argument that can somehow frustrate the arguments being set forth that defeat your arguments.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here.....another jab in the bloodied face of your doctrine that it can't defend itself against....
“He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean" John 13:10 NASB

Your doctrine can't fight the plain teaching of scripture of this one-time legal declaration of right standing with God that does not have to be repeated.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does Heb. 10:26-27 say this? If you want to discuss other verses, fine. You made a bogus claim that you won't admit to. All I'm doing is holding your feet to the fire.

Hold 'em all you want, baby. Here it is again:

The only way sin, even willful sin, can condemn a person is if they no longer believe in Christ. If they still believed in Christ that sin wouldn't be counted against them. It would be forgiven and erased from the record with no chance of them coming into the judgment of God because of it. It's when you stop having faith in Christ that the warning of sinning in Hebrews 10:26-29 applies.

 

[MarkT]

Your argument is with neither, because you agree with both of us. If "Abraham was faithful both times", he was justified both times. Wasn't he justified by obedient, trusting faith? Didn't he have obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 12? Therefore, he was justified in Gen. 12. If you also believe that he was justified in Gen. 15:6, when he "believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness", then that makes two. I know this is a foreign concept to most "born again Christians" because you look at justification (being born again) as a one-time-never-to-be-repeated event. But Scripture, highlighted by Abraham, disagrees with you.

All you're doing is saying the same thing twice. Abraham was justified by faith when he did this and when he did that. Abraham was justified by faith; that's true. But he was never rejustified.

And what does this have to do with being born again?

 

[dadof10]

I'll be happy to continue, Jethro Bodine when you calm down.