The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

this will open up a big can of worms... i dont see a born again child of GOD demon possessed

Well, this is one thing we agree on, Ezra. Your argument is with Smaller on this one, not me.

 

[MarkT]

I knew I should have made the disclaimer. I came this close. So, let me make it now.

This topic is not about WHAT justifies (i.e. faith alone, obedient faith, faith and works, works alone, all of the above), but about whether justification (however you personally want to define it) can be lost and regained and whether Abraham was re-justified in Gen. 15 . I know we go off on tangents, and they are instructive at times. But I would ask that everyone please address my arguments concerning Abraham. Thanks.

"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Ro. 4:3 What does that mean? It means he was right with God. So because Abraham was right with God, because he feared the LORD Ps. 111:10, and wisdom is justified by her deeds Mt.11:19, Abraham did what the LORD told him to do. And because he did those deeds, he received divine approval.

Was he justified? Yes he was justified by faith. What does that mean? It means he believed God would keep his promises.

Abraham never lost his faith, so he was never re-justified. How can a man be rejustified when he is already justified? For he was justified by faith. He wasn't re-given his faith. Faith isn't something you can regain.

 

[dadof10]

"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Ro. 4:3 What does that mean? It means he was right with God. So because Abraham was right with God, because he feared the LORD Ps. 111:10, and wisdom is justified by her deeds Mt.11:19, Abraham did what the LORD told him to do. And because he did those deeds, he received divine approval.

Abraham also received "divine approval" for his faithful actions in Gen. 12

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. (Heb 11:1-2 RSV)

When did he have this faith that "received divine approval"?

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. (Heb 11:8 RSV)

This episode happened in Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. As you can plainly see, the author of Hebrews says that Abraham had and obedient, trusting faith that was approved by God in Gen. 12.

Was he justified? Yes he was justified by faith. What does that mean? It means he believed God would keep his promises

Right. In Gen. 12 and Gen. 15. He had obedient, trusting faith both of these times.

Abraham never lost his faith, so he was never re-justified. How can a man be rejustified when he is already justified? For he was justified by faith. He wasn't re-given his faith. Faith isn't something you can regain.

Your argument isn't with me, it's with the author of Hebrews, who plainly says that Abraham had a justifying faith in Gen. 12.

 

[JLB]

It's unfortunate that there remains a multitude of morphed "salvation by works" doctrines, which were largely dispelled by Protestant reformers, continues to propagate.


The claim that was postured by the opening poster was cited many times now. That being that Abraham "lost his justification" and had to be "re-justified." Or "lost his faith" and had to reattain it.

It never happened. From the moment God came to Abraham in Gen. 12, it was no longer a matter of "only Abraham." But of God and Abraham. There never was a "just Abraham" working to attain anything.


Do I believe Abraham did anything on his own? Never. It's one of the problems that "works salvation" brings. It tries, quite vainly, to separate God out of the process and equations, when no such thing can be "forensically" proven to start with.



Abraham was not alone. God in Christ was with him and in him from the beginning of Gen. 12, and that's the end of that matter.

To try to see Abraham apart from God's Working isn't possible, logical or credible.

Ok. So I guess Abraham did not ha

Your discussing an imposed sight on Abraham that doesn't exist and it has been answered thoroughly for and in behalf of Abraham by God in Christ within him. 1 Peter 1:10-12

When "works for salvation" readers read the accounts, they have this insistent press to see how they can "work to save themselves."

There is only ONE Savior and it's not us.

If you believe Abraham was not justified in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, And Genesis 22, please share the scriptures you have that supports your belief that he wasn't.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Abraham also received "divine approval" for his faithful actions in Gen. 12

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. (Heb 11:1-2 RSV)

When did he have this faith that "received divine approval"?

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. (Heb 11:8 RSV)

This episode happened in Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. As you can plainly see, the author of Hebrews says that Abraham had and obedient, trusting faith that was approved by God in Gen. 12.


Right. In Gen. 12 and Gen. 15. He had obedient, trusting faith both of these times.


Your argument isn't with me, it's with the author of Hebrews, who plainly says that Abraham had a justifying faith in Gen. 12.

Furthermore Paul teaches us in Galatians 3 -

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

"In you all the nations of the earth shall be blessed"... is a direct reference to Genesis 12, in which the Gospel was preaches, being foreshadow in the life of Abraham, as he "represented" in this foreshadowing, an ungodly Gentile whose family and fathers served other gods, [Joshua 24:2] obeyed the voice of God and turned away from them and his former life and followed the Lord.

He was given a promise, in which if he obeyed the condition, he would receive the promise... leaving for us an example of what it means to be justified by faith.

Abraham was justified for the first time in Genesis 12, meaning he was declared righteous, when he obeyed by turning from his old life to God... foreshadowing that God would justify ungodly Gentiles by faith in Jesus Christ the same way.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Bingo? Your entire argument against the process of justification rests on your contention that, because Abraham has the "Spirit of Christ within" that it's impossible to lose justification.

Yep.

I have just pointed out that the logic is faulty because, in your warped view, Abraham also has a demon within.

Trying to 'sensationalize' sin being of the devil isn't going to change the fact that sin is of the devil or change the fact that "all" are sinners.

So, if "Spirit of Christ within" equates to "impossible to lose justification" then "demon within" equates to "loss of justification".

There are two separate parties in view in that sight. Only 1 is saved. And that, from the "other" party. That is the finality of salvation, when we are "separated" from our enemies into the Body of Christ. In the meantime, we suffer with them in the same tent of flesh.

Does this make any sense at all to you? What I'm saying is that your main (only?) argument against Abraham losing his justification has been rendered illogical by your strange, extreme, possessed-by-demons doctrine.

Trying to make the tempter legal, obedient, saved, under grace, forgiven, faithful, or anything else Godly is an entire waste of time. God knows how we're put together. We aren't fooling Him by trying to put a cover on our internal adversary.

Paul did an excellent job "exposing" himself, and thoroughly explains how sin operates in himself. He does an identical job, basing that understanding with the life of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael,

EXPLAINING that Ishmael, like Isaac, is also figurative of the FLESH which can not be part of the family of God in Christ.

4 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

It's the same statement, repeated, here:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Abraham had two sons. They were both figurative of Abraham himself. The old man and the new man in Christ. The former was lost.

When we are "saved" we are "divided" from our internal enemy, and called to rule OVER, in essence, the tempter who operated internally, blinding us prior to salvation. 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

We're not about to save that party no matter what is done by works.

 

[smaller]

Ok. So I guess Abraham did not ha

If you believe Abraham was not justified in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, And Genesis 22, please share the scriptures you have that supports your belief that he wasn't.

There is no use repeating an invalid question to start with. It was Christ "in" Abraham from the moment God came to him in Gen. 12. At that moment Abraham became part of His Body.

When we see Abraham from that moment on, we should recognize him as part of Christ, and no longer Abraham. Just as if we looked at Paul. We don't see Paul. We see a part of Christ's Body.

Paul didn't "recognize" himself.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[smaller]

this will open up a big can of worms... i dont see a born again child of GOD demon possessed

It has nothing to do with "possession." Sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, all have sin, 1 John 1:8. This reality of sin/the devil is recognized the instant we sense "internal temptation" via the tempter, as noted by Paul in Romans 7:7-13, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, 1 Tim. 1:15

Having internal temptations via the tempter is common to ALL. Prior to salvation we NEVER recognized we were being pawned. Eph. 2:2, 2 Cor. 4:4.

AFTER salvation, our battle begins, and that starts on our own flesh turf.

 

[JLB]

There is no use repeating an invalid question to start with. It was Christ "in" Abraham from the moment God came to him in Gen. 12. At that moment Abraham became part of His Body.

When we see Abraham from that moment on, we should recognize him as part of Christ, and no longer Abraham. Just as if we looked at Paul. We don't see Paul. We see a part of Christ's Body.

Paul didn't "recognize" himself.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You have yet to actually address the OP and the discussion at hand.

We are discussing the process of justification.


Paul teaches us in Galatians 3 -

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,“In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

"In you all the nations of the earth shall be blessed"... is a direct reference to Genesis 12, in which the Gospel was preaches, being foreshadow in the life of Abraham, as he "represented" in this foreshadowing, an ungodly Gentile whose family and fathers served other gods, [Joshua 24:2] obeyed the voice of God and turned away from them and his former life and followed the Lord.

He was given a promise, in which if he obeyed the condition, he would receive the promise... leaving for us an example of what it means to be justified by faith.

Abraham was justified for the first time in Genesis 12, meaning he was declared righteous, when he obeyed by turning from his old life to God... foreshadowing that God would justify ungodly Gentiles by faith in Jesus Christ the same way.


He was Justified again in Genesis 15, and Genesis 22.


If you don't believe this to be the case, then please show us why you don't believe from the scriptures that pertain to this subject matter.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

Abraham also received "divine approval" for his faithful actions in Gen. 12

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. (Heb 11:1-2 RSV)

When did he have this faith that "received divine approval"?

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. (Heb 11:8 RSV)

This episode happened in Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. As you can plainly see, the author of Hebrews says that Abraham had and obedient, trusting faith that was approved by God in Gen. 12.


Right. In Gen. 12 and Gen. 15. He had obedient, trusting faith both of these times.


Your argument isn't with me, it's with the author of Hebrews, who plainly says that Abraham had a justifying faith in Gen. 12.

Yes. Abraham was faithful both times. So what?

My argument is with your conclusion. It's not with the author of Hebrews.

 

[smaller]

You have yet to actually address the OP and the discussion at hand.

We are discussing the process of justification.

The fatal flaw remains in the posture that the Spirit of Christ in Abraham NEEDS a process.

There are no "flaws" in His Spirit.

 

[ezra]

 

[JLB]

There is no use repeating an invalid question to start with. It was Christ "in" Abraham from the moment God came to him in Gen. 12. At that moment Abraham became part of His Body.

So you agree that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The fatal flaw remains in the posture that the Spirit of Christ in Abraham NEEDS a process.

There are no "flaws" in His Spirit.

The fatal flaw in you answer is that it doesn't address the question.

It's not whether Christ in anyone needs a process, but the justification itself.


JLB

 

[smaller]

So you agree that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12?

Yes or No?

JLB

I agree that the Spirit of Christ was IN Abraham from Gen. 12 and ONWARD.

There was no "just Abraham."

Genesis 12
1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[smaller]

We ALL died at the Cross the moment we entered into faith in Christ.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry, but the exact words are "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26 NASB)

It doesn't say "if we stop believing" we lose justification, but "if we go on sinning" we lose justification. Again, to imply, for no textual reason, that the author means "behavior only signifies the belief that effects justification all by itself", is to miss the entire point here, which is what you are doing.

I will give you, both, the actual textual reason in the passage itself, and the overall Biblically contextual reason why Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to a loss of faith as the reason why a believer can be subject to the damnation of the lost, and that the lack of works is simply signatory of that loss of faith.

The passage makes reference to the fact that there "no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" for the willful sinner (Hebrews 10:26 NASB). It isn't that grace can't cover a willful sin, because it certainly can (Acts 13:39) if we ask forgiveness for that sin (1 John 1:9). What grace can't cover is the sin you won't bring to God. So, the willful sin being spoken of here that brings the condemnation of the unbelieving (vs.27) is the sin that is committed willingly with no thought for the forgiveness of God they have already and can receive for their sin. IOW, an absence of faith and trust in the forgiveness of God. It's sinning arrogantly and carelessly in the face of the grace they have received in Christ and which is always available to them, but which they have chosen to now reject.

And in the overall context of the scriptures, Jesus speaks about deeds being the evidence for, or against, our faith in Luke 7. It is there that the sinful woman breaks the alabaster jar of perfume, anointing and kissing the feet of Jesus. He says the reason she loves is because "her sins, which are many, have been forgiven" (vs.47). IOW, her deed is signifying her faith in the forgiveness of God.

Jesus also points out that the person who loves little, loves little because they have been forgiven little (vs. 47). So there is indeed this direct connection between works and faith such that our deeds are the billboard of our faith that advertises the quality and depth of our faith in the forgiveness of Christ. A lack of deeds, or a willful sinning, signifying a loss of faith in the blood of Christ.

So, Hebrews 10:26-29 is indeed speaking of a loss of faith as the reason why a believer can somehow become subject to the wrath of God once again. It can happen because of a loss of faith as signified in a willful turning away from the only sacrifice for sin there is and back to the sins they had been cleansed from.

 

[JLB]

We ALL died at the Cross the moment we entered into faith in Christ.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Does that mean you don't need to eat anymore.

What part of you is dead?

What part do you claim Satan can dwell in?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The passage makes reference to the fact that there "no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" for the willful sinner (Hebrews 10:26

The willful sinner who has turned away from Christ and departed the living God, therefore has no sacrifice for sins.

That's the context.


Someone who has tasted the heavenly gift, and turned back to Judaism, under the duress of persecution.

as we read later in Hebrews 10...

But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who [continue to] believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39



JLB

 

[JLB]

There was no "just Abraham."

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, 15, and 22.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


JLB