The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

Right, you are not getting it.
I'm showing you that God is patient in turning the former believer over to the consequence of their unbelief--lose of justification. Your argument is that they lost it the second they did not believe anymore. The letters to the churches in the Bible do not support your doctrine. They support mine as I am showing you.

As I showed you, the author is exhorting these believers not to give into persecution. To take the "great conflict of sufferings", the "partly by being made a public spectacle", the "reproaches and tribulations" and the "becoming sharers with those who were so treated" out of your exegesis of Heb 10 is to miss the entire point, which is what you are doing.

No.
Behavior only signifies the belief that effects justification all by itself. As John point out in 1 John 3:7-10, your righteousness shows you are righteous (justified). Your unrighteousness shows you are not righteous (not justified).

Sorry, but the exact words are "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26 NASB)

It doesn't say "if we stop believing" we lose justification, but "if we go on sinning" we lose justification. Again, to imply, for no textual reason, that the author means "behavior only signifies the belief that effects justification all by itself", is to miss the entire point here, which is what you are doing.

 

[dadof10]

I explained already that the Hebrew church, despite their loss of confidence (faith) in Christ, are not being exhorted to be re-justified, but rather are being reminded about what they already have in Christ, but which they will lose if they 'keep on sinning' (Hebrews 10:26).

They will lose justification ("what they already have in Christ") if they do what? Stop believing? Nope...

 

[dadof10]

I said they are dead. Breathing or not breathing, they are dead.

Then you mean spiritually dead, not actually dead?

 

[dadof10]

I have never said such nonsense.

You are putting words in my mouth that I have not said.

Why don't you actually address what is being presented here.

Welcome to the club.

 

[dadof10]

reply to a deleted post.. reba

 

[JLB]

No matter what "work" or act of "obedience" that Abraham did, it would not and could not "justify" that which is CONTRARY to the Spirit. This is also "why" we are only justified on the basis of faith in Christ. Because we all bear that which is CONTRARY to the Spirit.

You just stated God in Christ was in Abraham, so who is it that Abraham had faith in, if not Christ?

The Lord that was speaking to Abraham and leading him, was the Lord Jesus Christ, before He became flesh.

So again, I ask you, If you believe Abraham was not justified by faith, in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22, then please show us why, from the scriptures.


JLB

 

[JLB]

As I showed you, the author is exhorting these believers not to give into persecution. To take the "great conflict of sufferings", the "partly by being made a public spectacle", the "reproaches and tribulations" and the "becoming sharers with those who were so treated" out of your exegesis of Heb 10 is to miss the entire point, which is what you are doing.

That is definitely the context, and a continuation of this statement...

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Hebrews 3:12-14

As well as -

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

The context is about departing from faith in Jesus Christ, under the threat of persecution and pressure to turn back to the law.


JLB

 

[smaller]

You just stated God in Christ was in Abraham, so who is it that Abraham had faith in, if not Christ?

The Spirit of Christ was IN Abraham, leading him and speaking through him.

Gen. 20:7, 1 Peter 1:10-12

This man, Abraham, MINISTERED the things of Christ to us, The Spirit of Christ working through him and in him.

It is pointless to try to deride Abraham as "losing his faith" or "not being justified" by faith, ALONE. Abraham was never alone in the matter of faith. Nor did Abraham "attain" anything on his own, of himself, by any action of "his alone."

 

[JLB]

The Spirit of Christ was IN Abraham, leading him and speaking through him.

Gen. 20:7, 1 Peter 1:10-12

This man, Abraham, MINISTERED the things of Christ to us, The Spirit of Christ working through him and in him.

It is pointless to try to deride Abraham as "losing his faith" or "not being justified" by faith, ALONE. Abraham was never alone in the matter of faith. Nor did Abraham "attain" anything on his own, of himself, by any action of "his alone."

If you believe Abraham was not justified by faith, in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22, then please show us why, from the scriptures.


None of what you are saying addresses the OP, nor does it address the question.

If you don't know the answer then say so.

So again, I ask you, If you believe Abraham was not justified by faith, in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22, then please show us why, from the scriptures.


JLB

 

[smaller]

It's unfortunate that there remains a multitude of morphed "salvation by works" doctrines, which were largely dispelled by Protestant reformers, continues to propagate.

If you believe Abraham was not justified by faith, in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22, then please show us why, from the scriptures.

The claim that was postured by the opening poster was cited many times now. That being that Abraham "lost his justification" and had to be "re-justified." Or "lost his faith" and had to reattain it.

It never happened. From the moment God came to Abraham in Gen. 12, it was no longer a matter of "only Abraham." But of God and Abraham. There never was a "just Abraham" working to attain anything.

None of what you are saying addresses the OP, nor does it address the question.

If you don't know the answer then say so.

Do I believe Abraham did anything on his own? Never. It's one of the problems that "works salvation" brings. It tries, quite vainly, to separate God out of the process and equations, when no such thing can be "forensically" proven to start with.

So again, I ask you, If you believe Abraham was not justified by faith, in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and Genesis 22, then please show us why, from the scriptures.

JLB

Abraham was not alone. God in Christ was with him and in him from the beginning of Gen. 12, and that's the end of that matter.

To try to see Abraham apart from God's Working isn't possible, logical or credible.

 

[JLB]

It never happened. From the moment God came to Abraham in Gen. 12, it was no longer a matter of "only Abraham." But of God and Abraham. There never was a "just Abraham" working to attain anything.

I guess you can't answer the question I asked.

It's unfortunate that there remains a multitude of morphed "salvation by works" doctrines, which were largely dispelled by Protestant reformers, continues to propagate.


The claim that was postured by the opening poster was cited many times now. That being that Abraham "lost his justification" and had to be "re-justified." Or "lost his faith" and had to reattain it.

It never happened. From the moment God came to Abraham in Gen. 12, it was no longer a matter of "only Abraham." But of God and Abraham. There never was a "just Abraham" working to attain anything.


Do I believe Abraham did anything on his own? Never. It's one of the problems that "works salvation" brings. It tries, quite vainly, to separate God out of the process and equations, when no such thing can be "forensically" proven to start with.



Abraham was not alone. God in Christ was with him and in him from the beginning of Gen. 12, and that's the end of that matter.

To try to see Abraham apart from God's Working isn't possible, logical or credible.

No one is asking about anything you are talking about.

I will take your silence on my questions as, you simply don't know what we are discussing.

JLB

 

[dadof10]

The Spirit of Christ was IN Abraham, leading him and speaking through him.

Gen. 20:7, 1 Peter 1:10-12

This man, Abraham, MINISTERED the things of Christ to us, The Spirit of Christ working through him and in him.

It is pointless to try to deride Abraham as "losing his faith" or "not being justified" by faith, ALONE. Abraham was never alone in the matter of faith. Nor did Abraham "attain" anything on his own, of himself, by any action of "his alone."

So, the Spirit of Christ was "in Abraham", therefore he could not possibly have lost his justification, correct? Don't you also believe that there was a "tempter" within him too? Using your logic, if there was a "tempter" within him, a demon, how could he possibly remain justified? Was the demon "leading him and speaking through him" also? Did Abraham ever "minister the things of the devil to us"? Was the "spirit of the demon working through him and in him"? If it's impossible to lose justification because of Who is within us, is it also impossible to remain justified because of who is within us? Let's see how consistent your "unique" doctrine is.

 

[smaller]

So, the Spirit of Christ was "in Abraham", therefore he could not possibly have lost his justification, correct?

So, you think God's Purpose was to burn him alive forever instead? lol

Don't you also believe that there was a "tempter" within him too? Using your logic, if there was a "tempter" within him, a demon, how could he possibly remain justified?

The flesh of "all" (other than God Himself in the flesh) is/was subject to "internal" temptations and lusts. Of that there is no doubt. The flesh is contrary to the Spirit on this basis. We've done the drill often enough for you to see the scriptural basis of this that is found in Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, 1 Tim. 1:15 to name just a FEW.

Was the demon "leading him and speaking through him" also? Did Abraham ever "minister the things of the devil to us"? Was the "spirit of the demon working through him and in him"? If it's impossible to lose justification because of Who is within us, is it also impossible to remain justified because of who is within us? Let's see how consistent your "unique" doctrine is

Unique? Who are you kidding? Satan himself spoke to Jesus directly from Peter's own mouth, showing and proving the reality of Mark 4:15. Satan entered Judas. Satan is connected to EVERY, yes EVERY sin, 1 John 3:8, and ALL mankind are sinners. When anyone is "saved" we are, in effect, turned from Satan's power. Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2. That doesn't mean we are "released" from contentions of same in the flesh, duly noted by the reality of sin and being sinners.

Is that scriptural math so hard to figure out? Jesus came to "save us from our sins" which are of the devil. Apparently it's so obvious that few see it.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Abraham assuredly "didn't" save himself. Having a Savior requires having a Savior and that which to be saved from by that Savior.

We are not our own Savior.

 

[smaller]

I guess you can't answer the question I asked.

No one is asking about anything you are talking about.

I will take your silence on my questions as, you simply don't know what we are discussing.

JLB

Your discussing an imposed sight on Abraham that doesn't exist and it has been answered thoroughly for and in behalf of Abraham by God in Christ within him. 1 Peter 1:10-12

When "works for salvation" readers read the accounts, they have this insistent press to see how they can "work to save themselves."

There is only ONE Savior and it's not us.

 

[dadof10]

So, you think God's Purpose was to burn him alive forever instead? lol

The flesh of "all" (other than God Himself in the flesh) is/was subject to "internal" temptations and lusts. Of that there is no doubt. The flesh is contrary to the Spirit on this basis. We've done the drill often enough for you to see the scriptural basis of this that is found in Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, 1 Tim. 1:15 to name just a FEW.

Unique? Who are you kidding? Satan himself spoke to Jesus directly from Peter's own mouth, showing and proving the reality of Mark 4:15. Satan entered Judas. Satan is connected to EVERY, yes EVERY sin, 1 John 3:8, and ALL mankind are sinners. When anyone is "saved" we are, in effect, turned from Satan's power. Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2. That doesn't mean we are "released" from contentions of same in the flesh, duly noted by the reality of sin and being sinners.

Is that scriptural math so hard to figure out? Jesus came to "save us from our sins" which are of the devil. Apparently it's so obvious that few see it.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Abraham assuredly "didn't" save himself. Having a Savior requires having a Savior and that which to be saved from by that Savior.

We are not our own Savior.

Answer the simple question posed. Here it is again.

Using your logic, if there was a "tempter" within him, a demon, how could he possibly remain justified?

 

[dadof10]

So, you think God's Purpose was to burn him alive forever instead? lol

The flesh of "all" (other than God Himself in the flesh) is/was subject to "internal" temptations and lusts. Of that there is no doubt. The flesh is contrary to the Spirit on this basis. We've done the drill often enough for you to see the scriptural basis of this that is found in Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, 1 Tim. 1:15 to name just a FEW.

Unique? Who are you kidding? Satan himself spoke to Jesus directly from Peter's own mouth, showing and proving the reality of Mark 4:15. Satan entered Judas. Satan is connected to EVERY, yes EVERY sin, 1 John 3:8, and ALL mankind are sinners. When anyone is "saved" we are, in effect, turned from Satan's power. Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2. That doesn't mean we are "released" from contentions of same in the flesh, duly noted by the reality of sin and being sinners.

Is that scriptural math so hard to figure out? Jesus came to "save us from our sins" which are of the devil. Apparently it's so obvious that few see it.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Abraham assuredly "didn't" save himself. Having a Savior requires having a Savior and that which to be saved from by that Savior.

We are not our own Savior.

Since you are having comprehension problems here, let me break it down even further.

Spirit of Christ within= Impossible to lose justification.

Demon within= Impossible to remain justified.

 

[smaller]

Answer the simple question posed. Here it is again.

Using your logic, if there was a "tempter" within him, a demon, how could he possibly remain justified?

The 'basis' of the need for salvation resides on the fact that we are sinners (too many to cite), and sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, FROM WHICH we are "eventually" saved in totality from, in a NEW BODY that is not subject to our current state of affairs.

This is exactly what Paul speaks about deploying the "allegories" of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

No man removes this contrariness by "any" work.

 

[smaller]

Since you are having comprehension problems here, let me break it down even further.

Spirit of Christ within= Impossible to lose justification.

Demon within= Impossible to remain justified.

Bingo. The same sight applies to Paul, here:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Only ONE of the parties above were saved and it wasn't the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

 

[dadof10]

Bingo. The same sight applies to Paul, here:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Only ONE of the parties above were saved and it wasn't the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

Bingo? Your entire argument against the process of justification rests on your contention that, because Abraham has the "Spirit of Christ within" that it's impossible to lose justification. I have just pointed out that the logic is faulty because, in your warped view, Abraham also has a demon within.

So, if "Spirit of Christ within" equates to "impossible to lose justification" then "demon within" equates to "loss of justification". Does this make any sense at all to you? What I'm saying is that your main (only?) argument against Abraham losing his justification has been rendered illogical by your strange, extreme, possessed-by-demons doctrine.

 

[ezra]

Demon within= Impossible to remain justified.

this will open up a big can of worms... i dont see a born again child of GOD demon possessed