The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

All you're doing is saying the same thing twice. Abraham was justified by faith when he did this and when he did that. Abraham was justified by faith; that's true. But he was never rejustified.

And what does this have to do with being born again?

Two simple questions.

Was Abraham justified when he had obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 12?

Was Abraham justified when he had obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 15?

 

[dadof10]

There is no justification for the flesh. It is contrary to the Spirit. Again, this is not a one or the other deal. It is impossible to justify the flesh by works. And it is equally impossible to condemn the Son of Promise that we have by faith.



Divide the parties and you shouldn't have any problem perceiving this matter. You are not your own tempter. And if you think you are, I can assure you NO TEMPTER will be in heaven.

I have honesty. I honestly don't think any works are capable of conjuring up Jesus or by "doing works, making" ourselves into Jesus. That is, to me, an insane sight of theological madmen.

This has nothing to do with the obvious teaching of Heb. 11, which says Abraham had a justifying faith in Gen. 12. Because you say it's "impossible" doesn't make it so. I have shown your argument to be illogical. Because having "the Spirit of Christ" within you does not mean you can't lose justification any more than having a "demon within" you doesn't mean it's lost. Is this all you have, "it's impossible because it's impossible"?

 

[MarkT]

Two simple questions.

Was Abraham justified when he had obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 12?

Was Abraham justified when he had obedient, trusting faith in Gen. 15?

Abraham was justified by faith, not when he had faith. Abraham's faith was shown in Gen. 12 and tested in Gen. 22

 

[dadof10]

Abraham was justified by faith, not when he had faith.

Huh? So he was justified by faith before or after he first "had faith"?

Abraham's faith was shown in Gen. 12 and tested in Gen. 22

So, he had faith before Gen. 12?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

“He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean" John 13:10 NASB
The pre-resurrection Apostles did not need to be washed twice. Abraham did not either. Justification only needs to occur once. We do not lose our justification--our right standing with God--after being justified that it needs to be reinstated. If that were true we'd have to be completely washed again. Jesus said that is not necessary.

Only unbelief can remove a legal declaration of right standing with God (legal right standing because right standing with God is not, and can not be, secured through righteous behavior-Titus 3:5). And the author of Hebrews made it clear that if you do lose your right standing with God it's impossible to be renewed to it (Hebrews 6:4-6).

Re-justification: 1) Not necessary. And 2) impossible for God to perform.

 

[JLB]

The only way sin, even willful sin, can condemn a person is if they no longer believe in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Not without Christ in him. Which is the claim all of you try quite vainly to prove.

The father of faith, Abraham, had Christ in Him. No one could remove Christ in him for all of the babbling vain attempts to do so in the world. There never was an Abraham justifying himself to start with:

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

All these scriptures have nothing to do with the fact that Abraham was Justified, in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and again in Genesis 22, when He offered his son Issac on the altar.

Abraham was justified three different times.


5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you,does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[Genesis 15]”7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[Genesis 12] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:5-9

and again

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar [Genesis 22]? James 2:21


Abraham was justified three different times.


JLB

 

[JLB]

“He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean" John 13:10 NASB
The pre-resurrection Apostles did not need to be washed twice. Abraham did not either. Justification only needs to occur once. We do not lose our justification--our right standing with God--after being justified that it needs to be reinstated. If that were true we'd have to be completely washed again. Jesus said that is not necessary.

Only unbelief can remove a legal declaration of right standing with God (legal right standing because right standing with God is not, and can not be, secured through righteous behavior-Titus 3:5). And the author of Hebrews made it clear that if you do lose your right standing with God it's impossible to be renewed to it (Hebrews 6:4-6).

Re-justification: 1) Not necessary. And 2) impossible for God to perform.

Abram the ungodly, who served the gods of other nations, along with his fathers house, [Joshua 24:2] received the Gospel in Genesis 12, and obeyed by turning away from his fathers house, and followed the Lord. This example of faith is for all who would come after him, who would believe and be justified by faith in Jesus Christ. This is an old testament example of obeying the Gospel and walking by faith in Jesus Christ.

This is when Abram was first justified by the obedience of faith, and was given the promise through obeying Gospel.

For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:14

and again

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9


Here is the reference to the promise that Abraham would be heir of the world.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation; I will bless you
And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;


Abram, the ungodly Gentile was made righteous, when he obeyed God, and turned away from his father gods, and followed the Lord.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How does one stop believing in Christ?
Psalm 14:1; "The fool says in his heart, there is no God"
The same root word used for fool is also used for insanity.
So what does that tell you about someone who claims to believe in Christ and then changes his mind?

 

[MarkT]

Huh? So he was justified by faith before or after he first "had faith"?


So, he had faith before Gen. 12?

I believe Abraham was created with a believing heart and he was given a measure of faith. That faith was shown in Ge. 12 and Gen. 15 That faith was tested in Gen. 22 Abraham was Abraham. He wasn't faithful Abraham one day and unfaithful Abraham another day. Abraham was justified by faith. What I mean is he was approved because he never doubted. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God. Romans 4:20

 

[smaller]

All these scriptures have nothing to do with the fact that Abraham was Justified, in Genesis 12, Genesis 15, and again in Genesis 22, when He offered his son Issac on the altar.

Abraham was justified three different times.

There was no "just Abraham." There was Abraham and the Spirit of Christ in Abraham.

Is this a difficult concept in basic theology?

 

[smaller]

This has nothing to do with the obvious teaching of Heb. 11, which says Abraham had a justifying faith in Gen. 12. Because you say it's "impossible" doesn't make it so. I have shown your argument to be illogical. Because having "the Spirit of Christ" within you does not mean you can't lose justification any more than having a "demon within" you doesn't mean it's lost. Is this all you have, "it's impossible because it's impossible"?

The reason "works" salvation will never compute is because no matter what any person does, ALL are still and will remain, an internal compilation of good and evil.

That is "why" people can only be saved by faith with "The Spirit of Christ IN THEM to save them."

 

[JLB]

How does one stop believing in Christ?
Psalm 14:1; "The fool says in his heart, there is no God"
The same root word used for fool is also used for insanity.
So what does that tell you about someone who claims to believe in Christ and then changes his mind?

It's the same with the person who says it's impossible for someone to stop believing.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There was no "just Abraham." There was Abraham and the Spirit of Christ in Abraham.

Is this a difficult concept in basic theology?

So you believe there was no messanger of Satan in his flesh?

JLB

 

[smaller]

Jesus saves sinner's last time I checked. 1Tim 1:15

 

[dadof10]

“He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean" John 13:10 NASB
The pre-resurrection Apostles did not need to be washed twice. Abraham did not either. Justification only needs to occur once. We do not lose our justification--our right standing with God--after being justified that it needs to be reinstated. If that were true we'd have to be completely washed again. Jesus said that is not necessary.

Only unbelief can remove a legal declaration of right standing with God (legal right standing because right standing with God is not, and can not be, secured through righteous behavior-Titus 3:5). And the author of Hebrews made it clear that if you do lose your right standing with God it's impossible to be renewed to it (Hebrews 6:4-6).

You said earlier in this thread that the "feet washing" is the "removal of daily sins". The apostles are already justified, so all they need is their daily sins removed. Do I have your view right? Let's look at the context.

Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head." Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." (Jhn 13:8-10 NASB)

Jesus saying that unless he removes daily sin, we "have no part with" Him. According to you, Jesus says to justified forever people, that unless they have their daily sins removed by Him, they "have no part with" Him. Can a person who has "no part" with Jesus remain (or be) justified? Is being "part with" Jesus contingent on faith alone, or on having "daily sins" removed?

Obviously, "completely clean" here doesn't mean "justified forever, never to lose that justification", otherwise it is possible for a justified forever person to "have no part" with Jesus. What you want it to say is "completely clean, and never in need of washing, no matter how dirty you get because you are a snow covered dung heap", but it doesn't. In fact, it doesn't say anything about future "cleanliness" at all. Jesus tells (ostensibly justified forever) Peter that unless he allows Jesus to remove his sins, he "has no part with" Jesus, an obvious reference to losing justification. Read that again, and let it sink in...

Re-justification: 1) Not necessary.

Only if you believe that justified forever people can "have no part with" Jesus and still remain justified, which is ridiculous.

And 2) impossible for God to perform.

Really?

 

[dadof10]

I believe Abraham was created with a believing heart and he was given a measure of faith. That faith was shown in Ge. 12 and Gen. 15 That faith was tested in Gen. 22 Abraham was Abraham. He wasn't faithful Abraham one day and unfaithful Abraham another day. Abraham was justified by faith. What I mean is he was approved because he never doubted. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God. Romans 4:20

Please see JLB's post above. Abram was NOT "created with a believing heart" nor "given a measure of faith". He was called by God AFTER "serving other Gods" (Joshua 24:2). He repented and followed the true God in Gen. 12 and was justified then, when he had faith in God.

 

[dadof10]

The reason "works" salvation will never compute is because no matter what any person does, ALL are still and will remain, an internal compilation of good and evil.

That is "why" people can only be saved by faith with "The Spirit of Christ IN THEM to save them."

And a demon IN THEM to damn them, right? Consistency please...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You said earlier in this thread that the "feet washing" is the "removal of daily sins". The apostles are already justified, so all they need is their daily sins removed. Do I have your view right?

You got it right.
After we are transformed into new creatures through the washing of re-birth, what Christ does from there is cleanse the outer stain of all our 'out of character' behavior. Christ cleanses the stain of our sin from the sinless and perfect person we really are inside via the new birth, and whom God sees us as (as indicated by the fact that we are now no longer under the Judgment of God).

Hebrews explains this change of nature in the way of now receiving a clear conscience, indicating a change of nature. As opposed to being forgiven your sin under the inferior way of the blood of animals where your sins were indeed forgiven on the outside (the ones that could be forgiven) but you remained the thief, or the liar, or whatever it is that you are, and did not change who you are by nature in the very core of your being (Hebrews 9:13-14). And thus your guilty conscience remained.

Not so with Christ's sacrifice. It does change the very nature of the sinner into the nature of a clean and righteous person (Titus 3:5). And so now when we sin, we are sinning contrary to what we really are within, and in the sight of God. That sinning is the outer dirtying of our feet that Christ is speaking about. We don't need a whole new bath again when that happens. We're already changed on the inside and before God in heaven. What we need is an outer cleansing. The inside of the cup is already clean. We need to learn how to act like the sanctified cups set apart for the service of God that we really are.

Jesus saying that unless he removes daily sin, we "have no part with" Him. According to you, Jesus says to justified forever people, that unless they have their daily sins removed by Him, they "have no part with" Him. Can a person who has "no part" with Jesus remain (or be) justified?

No, they do not remain justified. Because as I explained, a decision to continue in sin and not seek the washing of daily sin through Christ is just another way of saying the person has abandoned his faith in Christ. If he hadn't abandoned it that sin would not remain. Repenting of sin is the signature of having the forgiveness of Christ (even if that means repenting 70x7 times). Not repenting of sin signifies that the believer has stopped seeking the forgiveness of God in Christ for that sin. Instead, they have chosen to continue in it, not caring about the forgiveness of God they have received.

Is being "part with" Jesus contingent on faith alone, or on having "daily sins" removed?

It is contingent on faith......a faith that drives a person to seek forgiveness and repentance. Faith alone secures the forgiveness. A change in works is the expected and obligatory result of wanting, and receiving, the forgiveness of your sins.

Obviously, "completely clean" here doesn't mean "justified forever, never to lose that justification", otherwise it is possible for a justified forever person to "have no part" with Jesus.

It does mean forever....like a lifetime supply of free groceries a person has won at the local super market. And it will continue forever just as promised.....as long as the person keeps showing up to receive them. They last forever for the person who possesses them. So it is with salvation.

It's entirely possible for a person justified one time/ forever to lose that justification. I've been saying this all along. A willful abandoning of the faith that secured the forgiveness of God in Christ, as indicated in a willful return to sin, will end the ministry of Christ's justification on behalf of that person that saved him.

Is being "part with" Jesus contingent on faith alone, or on having "daily sins" removed?

Both. But not in the way you understand that and the way many Protestants 'protest' against.
The removal of daily sin being a contingency upon which we remain a part of Jesus is only that in the sense that the removal of our daily sin is the evidence of our continuing faith in Christ. A willful return to sin happens when a person stops seeking God's forgiveness, not when they do seek God's forgiveness. If they sought it, they would be forgiven, not condemned for that willful sin, as Hebrews 10:26-29 explains happens to the willful--now unbelieving--sinner/former believer.

Jesus tells (ostensibly justified forever) Peter that unless he allows Jesus to remove his sins, he "has no part with" Jesus, an obvious reference to losing justification. Read that again, and let it sink in...

I agree. And the reason he will lose his place in Christ is because a decision to remain in sin (aka, willful sin) is a decision to reject the rebirth he has received through the cleansing forgiveness of Christ. Think about it.

Only if you believe that justified forever people can "have no part with" Jesus and still remain justified, which is ridiculous.

Which I don't believe. So this is not a point of contention between us that we need to even discuss it. And a point where I depart from the belief of the majority of Protestant believers.

Really?

Yes. Hebrews says it is 'impossible' for those who "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit", who then fall away, to be brought back to repentance.

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

The repentance that a person can be brought back to is the washing away of sin that stains the new righteous creation that the one-time, forever cleansed believer has become. But the person who rejects this forgiveness for the outer stain of sin is signifying his abandonment of the faith that transformed his inner man into what it was. The person who persists in that unbelief will be subject to the damnation of the enemies of God, not saved with the people of God (Hebrews 10:26-29).

 

[JLB]

You got it right.
After we are transformed into new creatures through the washing of re-birth, what Christ does from there is cleanse the outer stain of all our 'out of character' behavior. Christ cleanses the stain of our sin from the sinless and perfect person we really are inside via the new birth, and whom God sees us as (as indicated by the fact that we are now no longer under the Judgment of God).

Hebrews explains this change of nature in the way of now receiving a clear conscience, indicating a change of nature. As opposed to being forgiven your sin under the inferior way of the blood of animals where your sins were indeed forgiven on the outside (the ones that could be forgiven) but you remained the thief, or the liar, or whatever it is that you are, and did not change who you are by nature in the very core of your being (Hebrews 9:13-14). And thus your guilty conscience remained.

Not so with Christ's sacrifice. It does change the very nature of the sinner into the nature of a clean and righteous person (Titus 3:5). And so now when we sin, we are sinning contrary to what we really are within, and in the sight of God. That sinning is the outer dirtying of our feet that Christ is speaking about. We don't need a whole new bath again when that happens. We're already changed on the inside and before God in heaven. What we need is an outer cleansing. The inside of the cup is already clean. We need to learn how to act like the sanctified cups set apart for the service of God that we really are.

We are responsible to keep ourselves unspotted and undefiled, as well as to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit.... as Paul says -

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation,what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter. 2 Corinthians 7:8-11

The inside of the cup is already clean.

The "inside of the cup", a reference to the inner man,

19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

If we cleanse ourselves... we will be a vessel of honor, sanctified...


We must not assume that we have no responsibility to cleanse our inner man from the things that may defile us within.



JLB