The Process Of Justification

[MarkT]

Belief isn't an act? Having faith isn't an act of the will?

Abraham was righteous because he believed. He was justified because he did.

 

[MarkT]

In Gen. 12 Abraham left his father's country by faith. In Gen. 15 we see Abraham's faith count for righteousness. We can see by Gen. 22 he had not lost his faith. So Abraham's faith was never lost or regained. On the contrary, we can say Abraham's faith grew stronger over time.
Romans 4:20
No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,

Each incident or encounter with God made him stronger.

 

[smaller]

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Any notions of Abraham "justifying" himself, APART from Christ in him, is a futile sight.

Abraham assuredly never "justified" himself. No, not once, not twice, not ever.

In Abraham, we have a sight of the father of faith, coming before God, HONESTLY, about the "sights" of himself, and it surely was not on the ground of "self justification."

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

 

[JLB]

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Any notions of Abraham "justifying" himself, APART from Christ in him, is a futile sight.

Abraham assuredly never "justified" himself. No, not once, not twice, not ever.

In Abraham, we have a sight of the father of faith, coming before God, HONESTLY, about the "sights" of himself, and it surely was not on the ground of "self justification."

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

I can't see where anyone has claimed that Abraham justified himself.

Abraham was justified by God in Genesis 12, Genesis 15 and Genesis 22.

If you don't believe this to be true, then please post the scriptures as to why you don't believe Abraham was justified by God in Genesis 12,15 and 22.


JLB

 

[smaller]

I can't see where anyone has claimed that Abraham justified himself.

Abraham was justified by God in Genesis 12, Genesis 15 and Genesis 22.

The Spirit of Christ in Abraham means there was no "just" Abraham.

Our justification is always "in Him." He's not at lack of same for us.

 

[JLB]

The Spirit of Christ in Abraham means there was no "just" Abraham.

The scriptures indeed teach us that Abraham himself was justified... When he offered Isaac on the altar.
James 2:21


No, it certainly doesn't mean that a person is automatically justified [right with God] because they have the Spirit of Christ in them.

A person may be justified by God, through faith in Jesus Christ then later, go back to walking in the flesh and become entangled in the things of the world and overcome. 2 Peter 2:20-22

A person who has the Spirit of Christ in them must obey what the Spirit leads them to do.

They must choose to present themselves as obedient to God to do what is righteous.

as it is written

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Just as Balaam did not do what was right in the eyes of the Lord, when he sought to use sorcery against the children of Israel.

Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, he did not go as at other times, to seek to use sorcery, but he set his face toward the wilderness. Numbers 24:1


JLB

 

[smaller]

No, it certainly doesn't mean that a person is automatically justified [right with God] because they have the Spirit of Christ in them.

A believer dies the moment they accept Christ by faith. We do not and can not "make" ourselves into Christ by works.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

A person may be justified by God, through faith in Jesus Christ then later, go back to walking in the flesh and become entangled in the things of the world and overcome. 2 Peter 2:20-22

No believer became sinless after salvation. No, not one.

A person who has the Spirit of Christ in them must obey what the Spirit leads them to do.

Regardless of what anyone does they still never became sinless after salvation.

They must choose to present themselves as obedient to God to do what is righteous. as it is written

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

I might speculate that anyone who claims Christ will fail a believer on the basis of sin, and seeks their eternal death or eternal torture for sin certainly isn't obedient to the Spirit, but openly hates them and is a hypocrite about the fact of their own sin to boot. Christ will still prevail, even over these types of believers and their hypocritical claims.

Just as Balaam did not do what was right in the eyes of the Lord, when he sought to use sorcery against the children of Israel.

Balaam sought no differently than what works believers do when they vainly attempt to curse believers for sin into eternal damnation. He sought to curse Israel. This is how God saw and still sees Israel:

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, he did not go as at other times, to seek to use sorcery, but he set his face toward the wilderness. Numbers 24:1

JLB

Balaam had 3 failed attempts to curse Israel.

Nehemiah 13:2
Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing.

Salvation was never a matter of man's ability. Man HAS NONE. The ability of God in Christ to save is the only matter in view.

At the moment of faith, this happens for all who call upon Him. It is no longer "just them" nor is "just the person" ever justified in and of themselves. God in Christ doesn't need "our justification" to add to His sufficiency.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The continual claim that is being pawned off in this thread is that there is a believer, alone. The scriptural fact is, there is no person after the moment they believe. There is Christ, in them.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

No believer on any basis of works eliminates this present reality either:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Even Abraham retained this contrariness of the flesh, after God in Christ came INTO Him in Gen. 12. As do all.

 

[dadof10]

Hebrews 10:26-29 is not talking about just one specific sin that tramples on the blood of Christ. I see it often enough among Christians to know what the passage is addressing. It's about people who have this flippant, careless attitude about their sin because they think that grace means Christ will always be there ready to forgive it and fall all over himself to keep them safe when they need to have that forgiveness. It makes me so angry to see Christians do this. They think God is this wimpy milk toast kind of parent who picks up everything after their kids without requiring the disciplines of the faith from them. But God is not mocked.

I know. I agree, and it bothers me too. I have recently read up on the subject and the sin which can't be forgiven is impenitence. Refusing to repent, up until death.

The person who tramples on the grace of God that way has started the clock ticking toward the time God says, 'enough!', and he shuts the door in their faces.

I disagree with you here. I don't think God "shuts the door" on anyone. I think we shut the door on Him, but the door is always unlocked, with God calling us back from the other side.

I'm not talking about the weak sinner who seems to live in constant defeat, continually coming back to Christ for forgiveness. I'm talking about the person who has accepted his sin as a way of life and does not seek God about it because he thinks grace means God is winking at it. I mean if he is even thinking about grace at all.

So, impenitence, then? If he repents on his deathbed, will he be forgiven? There have been millions of documented deathbed reversion stories, where people who have strayed from the faith (sometimes FAR away, even to Satan worship) have come back and repented on their deathbed. Do you think that God rejects these people with ostensibly sincere faith, coming back to Christ after re-conversion?

The sin being spoken of certainly includes the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in it's most obvious form (openly denouncing and denying the Holy Spirit's ministry of testifying to the Christ). But when you understand that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is nothing more than the sin of unbelief (deciding not to believe the Holy Spirit's testimony, thus calling the Holy Spirit a liar--1 John 5:10) you can see how the sin that tramples on and mocks the grace of God in the blood of Christ is any sin that is flagrantly and willingly done because of unbelief in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Paul speaks of this denial of the power of God here:

5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power" (2 Timothy 3:5 NASB)


It isn't covered by the blood because there is no sacrifice given by God to cover the sin of rejecting the forgiveness of God. Persist in it and you will die with no remedy for that sin. Because there isn't one. The sacrifice of Christ doesn't remain for the 'believer' who sins because of a trampling of the blood of Christ in unbelief.

I think we agree here also, if by "the sin of unbelief" you mean willful rejection of Christ and If we persist in this unbelief (living in sin), until death, we are lost and can not be justified again. It is the only "unforgivable sin" because it carries with it an assumption of impenitence. Up until our last breath, however, we can be brought back into God's Grace by repentance, no matter how far we stray. Impenitence is the unforgivable sin, because it carries with it a hardness of heart that rejects God. I have heard of people dying in this state, where they "will not serve" even when they can feel the fires of Hell. They have rejected Christ in life and their pride won't let them accept Him in death.

But the sin that is not brought to Christ can't be forgiven either. What sacrifice is there to forgive the sin that a person knows is sin but won't bring to Christ? I only know of Christ's sacrifice existing and remaining to cover sins that people bring to him to be forgiven. And what I mean by 'bring to him' is they have every intention of being rid of it through a relationship with God by the Holy Spirit, not coexisting with it.

Agreed, again impenitence. If the person on his deathbed was suddenly cured, there would be the expectation of total conversion (like the Thief on the cross). And this too has happened. I'm not talking about a person who makes a deal with God to save his skin. I'm talking about a person who truly repents because he thinks he's going to die, then survives. After that, the person totally changes his life. I think this is the rule, not the exception for people in this situation.

They do if those daily sins represent an unbelief and a turning away from the forgiveness that they know about through the ministry and testimony of the Holy Spirit. The unrepentant person who sins defiantly and willfully is in effect rejecting God's call through the Holy Spirit to forgiveness and repentance through the blood of Christ and choosing to trample it underfoot in a careless and/or contemptuous rejection of that blood. IOW, he is unbelief.

IF HE PERSISTS IN UNBELIEF, as you rightly said above. This is what Jesus is talking about.

Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." (Jhn 13:8 NASB)

Unless we bring our "daily sins" to Jesus, we lose justification. We agree on this and the analogy Jesus is drawing. The "feet" represent "our daily walk", the "washing" represents Jesus removing the sins of our daily walk, and refusal to allow Jesus to do so results in loss of justification. Think about this, Jethro. Jesus tells justified believers, Apostles, that unless they come to Him to remove the sins of their daily walk, they will lose their justification. He doesn't say "unless you die in apostasy" or "unless you lose faith". Removal of daily sins (dirt) we accumulate on our daily walk, is necessary for continued justification.

And I agree. But where we disagree is I say you only lose the one-time justification you received in the cleansing of your whole body eventually after you resist and resist in unbeief God's call to forgiveness and repentance for daily sin. That is when you lose the justification--the cleanliness of the whole body---but which God says is impossible to have done again.

I agree, if a person dies in this state he will lose justification forever. Do you think are there people walking around in the course of their daily lives that have been justified, have rejected that justification and can never get it back, no matter how remorseful they are or how often they repent, and that it's God Who is the One "locking them out"?

 

[dadof10]

In the passage we see daily sin is not talking about the issue of having been made clean in Christ itself, but only the dirtying of the feet. That is, until you reject Christ and don't allow him to cleanse the daily sin, which I'm saying means you are, or have, departed the faith. Then it does become a matter of losing the one-time body cleansing justification you received, which we agree Jesus refers to as 'having no part of him'.

But I'm saying you never lose your justification in this scenario unless you persist in it. As Jesus says, the body remains wholly clean despite the dirty feet. So it isn't' the dirty feet that rob one of justification. It's when you raise daily sin to the level of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (unbelief) that you can then lose justification. And you lose it forever with no chance given to get it back.

I thought the refusal to allow Jesus to clean the "dirty feet" does rob one of justification. Don't we agree on this?

I need some clarification here. You say these verses teach we can lose justification if we persist in sinning, which I agree with. Here is what you said earlier about these same verses, which seem to say we can't lose justification, even if we persist in "daily sin".

"So it's plainly obvious he's not talking to the pollution of false brethren among them as you claim. He's addressing the actual believing church, calling them brothers 'in Christ'. And he says they have the leaven of jealousy and strife. Yet, legally speaking, he says they are unleavened and are perfect before God. So, despite their sin, which they are still in, their unleavened perfection still stands. He said so. Their sinning did not remove that so that they need to be re-justified.

We see another illustration of this concept of being always perfectly justified before God despite the stain of our sins here:

"8 Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”" (John 13:8-10 NASB italics in orig.)

Peter doesn't need a whole bath all over again. He only needs his feet washed. The bath is justification. The washing of the feet is the stain of our daily sin that doesn't necessitate an entire re-washing (re-justification) of the believer. Note, Jesus did distinguish between the truly washed, but stained, Apostles, and the Apostle that was stained, but was not washed, Judas. For your understanding of 'unleavened' to be correct, the Apostles would not even need their feet washed, or else they would be in the same category as Judas, representing the leaven that is in the lump."

The Process Of Justification

This seems inconsistent with your view in your last post and this one, that a person who doesn't come to Christ to get his feet washed, can lose justification ("have no part with" Christ). You seem to be saying in the red above, that whether we allow Jesus to remove our daily sins or not, it doesn't effect our justification. We are "completely clean" and will always remain so "despite the stain of our sins", because we have had the "bath" of justification.

Yes, 'through repentance'. But if you don't repent asking forgiveness you are guilty of sin that can not be forgiven. Both, the sin of your unbelief, and the sin displayed as a result of that unbelief. Remain in that unrepentant, willfully sinning state and you have nothing to look forward to but the damnation of the enemies of God.

Amen...

Remain in it long enough and God will make it so you can not come back.

I don't think "God makes it" that way. We do. God will forgive all sins except those we don't bring to Him, that's why impenitence is the unforgivable sin, the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". "I will not repent", which is another way of saying that infamous line, "I will not serve".

 

[dadof10]

Here is a good exegesis on the unforgivable sin and Hebrews 6. I'll link the whole article, and copy the relevant paragraphs here.

"Hebrews 6:1-6 reads like this:

"1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

The first two verses tell us about "the elementary teachings of Christ"—that is, the basic truths of the Christian faith. This is important because it will set us up for the discussion of apostasy.

Note that they walk us through an ordo salutis—the stages of the Christian life: repentance, faith, baptism, laying on of hands (i.e., confirmation), resurrection, and judgment. Two truths preceding Christian initiation (repentance and faith), two truths at initiation (baptism and confirmation), and two truths at the end of the Christian life (resurrection and judgment).

The author says he won't go over the basic teachings of Christ again because it is impossible to renew to repentance those who have fallen away. This is often a very problematic verse (especially for those who believe it is impossible to lose one's salvation), and is often thought to pertain to the unforgivable sin. However, this is not the case.

To see why, we must first eliminate a dodge that is often used to render this verse a counterfactual hypothetical. As it appears in many English translations, v. 6 is often opened with the clause "if they fall away." However, this is not an accurate rendering of the Greek text, as even eternal securitists (such as Kendall) will admit. The Greek is simply kai parapesontas, which of course means "and (kai) have fallen away (parapesontas)"—parapesontas being an aorist—just like in the other four clauses in the preceding two verses, of which this clause is the final link in the chain of parallel aorist clauses identifying the apostates. The passage, correctly translated, thus reads:

"It is impossible for those who (a) have once been enlightened, (b) have tasted the heavenly gift, (c) and have been made partakers in the Holy Spirit, (d) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, (e) and have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are re-crucifying the Son of God and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Or more shortly:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened . . . and have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are re-crucifying the Son of God and subjecting him to public disgrace."

The Greek of the passage presents the falling away as an accomplished fact, not a hypothetical possibility. (Thus an eternal securitist would have to say that they were never inwardly a Christian to begin with, only outwardly.)

Nevertheless, the passage does not pertain to the unforgivable sin. Many have misread the passage, being misled by the hypothetical ("if . . .") translation of v 6, and have argued: "If a person did fall away then they could not come back because they would have to re-crucify Christ, and that is impossible since he died only once!"

But this is simply not what the passage says. It does not say that if one tried to come back one would have to re-crucify Christ. It does not present the re-crucifixion as something that would need to happen if someone came back. It presents the re-crucifixion as a present reality. Just read the text: "because to their loss they are re-crucifying [present tense, active voice in both Greek and English] the Son of God and subjecting him to public disgrace." The text says that the apostates are re-crucifying Christ now, not that they would need to if they came back.

This is where understanding the Jewish context (and content) of the letter is so important. By returning to Judaism, the apostates are declaring that Jesus was a false Messiah (else they would not leave faith in him as the true Messiah). But by declaring Jesus to be a false Messiah, they are declaring that he deserved what he got when he was crucified—because it is axiomatic that every false Messiah deserves death and public humiliation. They, like the fox in Aesop's fable "The fox and the grapes," are having an attack of sour grapes and were running around saying: "Well, he wasn't the real Messiah. He deserved what he got. He deserved to be crucified and put to public humiliation. As it says in the Torah, 'Cursed is every man who is hung upon a tree!'"

Thus the re-crucifixion and humiliation of Christ was something the apostates were doing while they were maintaining their rebellion against the Messiah they had once accepted. This indicates an enormous hardness of heart, which is why the author tells us, "It is impossible for those . . . to be brought back to repentance." The hardness of their hearts prevents it.

This is, of course, a practical rule rather than a dogmatic (absolute) rule. Because of the hardness of heart the Jewish apostates are displaying by publicly denouncing Jesus, declaring that he deserved crucifixion and humiliation, it is as a practical matter impossible to renew them to repentance and faith in Christ. This does not in any way mean it is an absolute impossibility to renew them to repentance, for "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God" (Mark. 10:27)."

https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/UNFORGIV.HTM

(Coloring and bolding of the text, not in original article)

 

[dadof10]

Abraham was righteous because he believed. He was justified because he did.

And back around we go...You're talking in circles. When asked if Abraham was justified when he believed, you said "No. Acts are justified. There has to be an act. For instance Abraham left his country." Now belief is an act that does justify????

 

[MarkT]

And back around we go...You're talking in circles. When asked if Abraham was justified when he believed, you said "No. Acts are justified. There has to be an act. For instance Abraham left his country." Now belief is an act that does justify????

In Gen. 12 Abraham did what the LORD commanded him to do because he had faith and he feared the LORD. So when the word of the LORD came to him, he left his father's country. So Abraham was approved through faith when he did what the LORD said he should do.

 

[dadof10]

In Gen. 12 Abraham did what the LORD commanded him to do because he had faith and he feared the LORD. So when the word of the LORD came to him, he left his father's country. So Abraham was approved through faith when he did what the LORD said he should do.

He believed in Gen. 12 and was justified. He believed in Gen. 15 and was justified. Yes or no?

 

[MarkT]

My argument is Christ was crucified for our justification. By faith we are acquitted, By faith we are approved. By faith we can enter the eternal habitations.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I disagree with you here. I don't think God "shuts the door" on anyone. I think we shut the door on Him, but the door is always unlocked, with God calling us back from the other side.

I disagree:
"God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NASB)

So, impenitence, then? If he repents on his deathbed, will he be forgiven? There have been millions of documented deathbed reversion stories, where people who have strayed from the faith (sometimes FAR away, even to Satan worship) have come back and repented on their deathbed. Do you think that God rejects these people with ostensibly sincere faith, coming back to Christ after re-conversion?

Depends on whether they had been turned over to the lie per the 2 Thessalonians scripture I cited above.

Do you think are there people walking around in the course of their daily lives that have been justified, have rejected that justification and can never get it back, no matter how remorseful they are or how often they repent, and that it's God Who is the One "locking them out"?

Yes. Hebrews warns us not to be like Esau:
"16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12:16-17 NASB)

 

[dadof10]

My argument is Christ was crucified for our justification. By faith we are acquitted, By faith we are approved. By faith we can enter the eternal habitations.

Thanks anyway...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Unless we bring our "daily sins" to Jesus, we lose justification. We agree on this and the analogy Jesus is drawing. The "feet" represent "our daily walk", the "washing" represents Jesus removing the sins of our daily walk, and refusal to allow Jesus to do so results in loss of justification. Think about this, Jethro. Jesus tells justified believers, Apostles, that unless they come to Him to remove the sins of their daily walk, they will lose their justification. He doesn't say "unless you die in apostasy" or "unless you lose faith". Removal of daily sins (dirt) we accumulate on our daily walk, is necessary for continued justification.

I guess the part that I've failed to communicate in my argument is that the "is completely clean" (John 13:10 NASB) is not lost even though our feet get dirty. We don't lose our justification in our daily sinning. We remain completely clean before God. But if we trample on that gracious fact of our salvation and redemption we do risk losing our "is completely clean" status before God and will once again--like before we got saved--become subject to the damnation of the enemies of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Peter doesn't need a whole bath all over again. He only needs his feet washed. The bath is justification. The washing of the feet is the stain of our daily sin that doesn't necessitate an entire re-washing (re-justification) of the believer. Note, Jesus did distinguish between the truly washed, but stained, Apostles, and the Apostle that was stained, but was not washed, Judas. For your understanding of 'unleavened' to be correct, the Apostles would not even need their feet washed, or else they would be in the same category as Judas, representing the leaven that is in the lump."

The Process Of Justification

This seems inconsistent with your view in your last post and this one, that a person who doesn't come to Christ to get his feet washed, can lose justification ("have no part with" Christ). You seem to be saying in the red above, that whether we allow Jesus to remove our daily sins or not, it doesn't effect our justification. We are "completely clean" and will always remain so "despite the stain of our sins", because we have had the "bath" of justification.

No. If we stop relying on Christ for the washing of our feet in a cleansing of sin after we have been justified, we show we are losing, or have lost, faith in Christ--the faith that justifies us before the Father in heaven, believing and trusting in the continuing sacrifice and ministry of Christ on our behalf (Hebrews 7:25).

The daily sin itself doesn't rob us of the justifying work of Christ on our behalf. That can, and is, forgiven when we have faith. But it is when our faith fails, as evidenced in daily sin now going unconfessed and unrepented of, that is what robs us of the effect of Christ's justifying blood. And it is God that determines when he's had enough trampling of his blood and removes that justification and that person is now beyond hope of recovery.

 

[dadof10]

I guess the part that I've failed to communicate in my argument is that the "is completely clean" (John 13:10 NASB) is not lost even though our feet get dirty. We don't lose our justification in our daily sinning. We remain completely clean before God. But if we trample on that gracious fact of our salvation and redemption we do risk losing our "is completely clean" status before God and will once again--like before we got saved--become subject to the damnation of the enemies of God.

Dadof10: "Jesus saying that unless he removes daily sin, we "have no part with" Him. According to you, Jesus says to justified forever people, that unless they have their daily sins removed by Him, they "have no part with" Him. Can a person who has "no part" with Jesus remain (or be) justified?"

Jethro: "No, they do not remain justified. Because as I explained, a decision to continue in sin and not seek the washing of daily sin through Christ is just another way of saying the person has abandoned his faith in Christ. If he hadn't abandoned it that sin would not remain. Repenting of sin is the signature of having the forgiveness of Christ (even if that means repenting 70x7 times). Not repenting of sin signifies that the believer has stopped seeking the forgiveness of God in Christ for that sin. Instead, they have chosen to continue in it, not caring about the forgiveness of God they have received."

I hope you can see why I'm a little confused.

 

[dadof10]

No. If we stop relying on Christ for the washing of our feet in a cleansing of sin after we have been justified, we show we are losing, or have lost, faith in Christ--the faith that justifies us before the Father in heaven, believing and trusting in the continuing sacrifice and ministry of Christ on our behalf (Hebrews 7:25).

The daily sin itself doesn't rob us the justifying work of Christ on our behalf. That can, and is, forgiven when we have faith. But it is when our faith fails, as evidenced in daily sin now going unconfessed and unrepented of, that is what robs us of the effect of Christ's justifying blood. And it is God that determines when he's had enough trampling of his blood and removes that justification and that person is now beyond hope of recovery.

"Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." (Jhn 13:8 NASB)

We both agree that to "have no part with" Jesus means to lose justification and to "wash you" means removal of daily sin. Jesus is saying "unless you let me remove your daily sin, you will lose your justification". It's no more complicated than that. Certainly, faith is taken for granted, but it is removal of daily sins, not faith alone, that keeps a person from losing his justification.