Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

  • Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?

    Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic

    https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?

    Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject

    https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042

The Process Of Justification

We know from the whole context of scripture that it is sinning that signifies unbelief that causes one to be cut out of the vine (Romans 11:20). Just as righteous deeds signify belief that causes one to be saved (Luke 7:46-50)
And because of belief can be grafted in again.

And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23 NASB)

People stop believing, they are "cut off", they return to the faith, they are grafted back in. Rejustification...

The problem is, if you want to insist it is the sinning itself that gets one cut out of the vine (each and every single instance of sin, no matter how small) you contradict other scriptures that say faith is the determining factor in whether or not we are in, and stay in, the vine.
And by insisting that it's faith alone, you are contradicting "other Scriptures" that say obedience and refraining from sin are other "determining factors" to retaining justification. Faith and refraining from sin are not in competition with each other. It's both/and. It's obedient faith that keeps us justified, otherwise we are "cut-off", but can be grafted back in again.
 
"but is completely clean" = remains justified
Exactly.
And he said this about them while their feet were dirty and in need of washing. That is clearly right in the passage itself:

"“He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean" (John 13:10 NASB)

And it says that the clean, justified Apostle who doesn't allow himself to have his feet washed then has no part of Jesus:

“If I do not wash you (you justified, clean person with dirty feet), you have no part with Me.” (John 13:8 NASB parenthesis mine)
 
Later generations of Isrealites can, and will be, grafted back into their native vine.
Long dead, unbelieving Isrealites are not the ones who will be grafted back in. They died in their sin. The damnation for their unbelief is the only thing they have to look forward to now (Hebrews 10:26-27).
Later generations of Israelites? Paul is talking about how the Israelites were cut off because they didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah ("because of unbelief"), and the Gentiles are now grafted in because of their faith. If the Israelites return to the faith, they will be grafted back in. How is this not a picture of the Israelites being rejustified? They were cut off (lost justification) because they didn't believe in the Messiah. If they accept Jesus as the Messiah, they will be grafted back in (rejustified).
 
And because of belief can be grafted in again.

And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23 NASB)

People stop believing, they are "cut off", they return to the faith, they are grafted back in. Rejustification...
The context of Romans 11:17-24 is the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel will once again be grafted into their native vine. Look at verse 25...

"a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:25 NASB)

We see he's talking about a future generation and nation of Israelites that will be grafted back into the vine when that place in history arrives when the "fullness of the Gentiles has come in". Obviously, this is speaking of Israel as a whole, as a nation, not individual Israelites who did not believe, were cut out of the vine as a result, and then believed later and were thus grafted back into the vine.
 
Later generations of Israelites? Paul is talking about how the Israelites were cut off because they didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah ("because of unbelief"), and the Gentiles are now grafted in because of their faith. If the Israelites return to the faith, they will be grafted back in. How is this not a picture of the Israelites being rejustified? They were cut off (lost justification) because they didn't believe in the Messiah. If they accept Jesus as the Messiah, they will be grafted back in (rejustified).
The point is, this is not talking about individual Israelites who did not believe, but who then later believed and were grafted back into the vine. As I've pointed out, the "fullness of the Gentiles", when the grafting occurs, is a future time. Innumerable generations of unbelieving Israelites have lived and died since Paul penned this and before. They will not be grafted back in. Future Israelites alive at some future time will turn to Christ in faith will be grafted back into the vine.
 
And by insisting that it's faith alone, you are contradicting "other Scriptures" that say obedience and refraining from sin are other "determining factors" to retaining justification. Faith and refraining from sin are not in competition with each other. It's both/and. It's obedient faith that keeps us justified, otherwise we are "cut-off", but can be grafted back in again.
I'm not in disagreement with this. What I'm in disagreement with is the belief that the works themselves are the agent of justification (making one righteous). But it's certainly true that the faith that justifies, all by itself, is the faith that can be seen in what it does. (Luke 7:44-50, Galatians 5:6b) But that hardly means the work that faith caused is the actual 'thing' that makes a person righteous. I don't know how that would work anyway.

I can see how the blood of Christ can make a person righteous, cleansing their spirit and transforming them into new creations. I don't see how doing righteous things has any power to make a person righteous. We have centuries of law keeping to prove that doesn't work. In fact, that's WHY we have centuries of law keeping--to prove that very truth:

Righteous works have no power to make a person righteous as Jesus is righteous. Only the cleansing of the blood of Christ can wash away unrighteousness and give a person a new nature. Righteous work has no power to do that. This is explained in Hebrews 7-10. The nature of a person is changed from unrighteous to righteous through the application of the blood of Christ, which is secured through believing in that blood, not working works of righteousness for that blood.
 
But that hardly means the work that faith caused is the actual 'thing' that makes a person righteous. I don't know how that would work anyway.

When God speaks to a person, to do something, they now have faith.

If the person does not do what they hear God tell them to do, then their faith, that they have from God is dead.

Faith all by itself produces nothing.

People who hear God tell them to do something, and do not do what they hear God tell them to do, are not righteous because they have faith.

Only people who hear God, (thus have faith from God), and obey what they hear God tell them to do, are righteous.

How can a person who hears God, and now has faith, but does not do what God says, (rebellion), be considered "righteous" even though they have faith, but are disobedient?

The only people who are made righteous by faith, are those who obey what they hear.

Thats how it works.

Thanks the only way it works.

Faith without the act of obedience is dead, and can not save.


JLB
 
Nope, didn't say that.
I'm saying that not coming to Jesus to have your feet washed will result in you losing your justification....forever. Having dirty feet doesn't rob you of your justification. The refusal to have your dirty feet washed will.

Exactly.
And he said this about them while their feet were dirty and in need of washing. That is clearly right in the passage itself:

"“He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean" (John 13:10 NASB)

And it says that the clean, justified Apostle who doesn't allow himself to have his feet washed then has no part of Jesus:

“If I do not wash you (you justified, clean person with dirty feet), you have no part with Me.” (John 13:8 NASB parenthesis mine)
This was your entire reason for introducing these verses in the first place:

"We see another illustration of this concept of being always perfectly justified before God despite the stain of our sins here:

"8 Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." (John 13:8-10 NASB italics in orig.)

This is what I'm responding to, that "completely clean" does not mean "always perfectly justified before God despite the stain of our sins". This is what you have been saying and the entire reason you brought it up. The verse then reads like this:

Peter said to Him, “Never shall You remove my daily sin!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not remove your daily sin, you have no justification.

So, it is not "despite the stain of our sins". The stain of our sins effects our justification, and is contingent upon it. If I do not remove your daily sin, you have no justification." means justification is contingent upon the removal of sin. So, Jesus says Peter has to have his sins removed or he loses justification.

9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.10 Jesus said to him, “He who has been justified needs only to have his daily sin removed, but is justified; and you are justified, but not all of you.

Jesus just said that justification was contingent upon having daily sins removed, then turns around in the next sentence and says he is "always perfectly justified despite the stain of those sins"? Nope. To interpret verse 10, "He who has been justified needs only to have his daily sin removed, but is justified" contradicts v. 8. If you believe that Jesus is saying that justification is contingent upon having daily sins removed (v.8), he couldn't possibly, in the next breath, say "but whether you do or not, you are justified anyway", which is what you mean by "being perfectly justified before God despite the stain of our sins". He just got done saying that if He did not remove the sins, Peter had "no part with" Him, which we both agree means "lose justification".

To interpret "completely clean" as "perfectly justified, despite the stain of our sins" is to contradict the meaning of verse 8.
 
I'm not in disagreement with this. What I'm in disagreement with is the belief that the works themselves are the agent of justification (making one righteous). But it's certainly true that the faith that justifies, all by itself, is the faith that can be seen in what it does. (Luke 7:44-50, Galatians 5:6b)
Kinda like the faith Abraham has in Gen. 12, an obedient, trusting faith with works attached. BTW, you still have not shown where "commendable faith" is taught in Scripture--an obedient, trusting faith, with works attached that does not justify.
 
The only people who are made righteous by faith, are those who obey what they hear.
Only people who HAVE BEEN made righteous by faith are those who obey what they hear.

"make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous" (1 John 3:7 NASB)

"we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" (Ephesians 2:10 NASB bold mine)


That's what the transformation is all about--now being able to do righteous things because you have the righteous nature of Christ through faith in his blood. We don't do righteous things to get the righteousness of Christ (that's the damnable 'works' gospel Paul warns us about). We do righteous things BECAUSE we have the righteousness of Christ.
 
Peter said to Him, “Never shall You remove my daily sin!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not remove your daily sin, you have no justification.

So, it is not "despite the stain of our sins". The stain of our sins effects our justification, and is contingent upon it. If I do not remove your daily sin, you have no justification." means justification is contingent upon the removal of sin. So, Jesus says Peter has to have his sins removed or he loses justification.
You aren't reading carefully enough. Before Jesus even touches their dirty feet he explains to them they are clean.

"He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." (John 13: NASB bold mine)

Understand? It isn't their dirty feet that makes them unclean. Jesus said to the dirty footed Apostles that they are clean. It's their refusal to have their feet cleaned that puts them at risk of losing their place in Christ. But you say they are unclean with their dirty feet, while Jesus says they are clean with their dirty feet.
 
Only people who HAVE BEEN made righteous by faith are those who obey what they hear.

"make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous" (1 John 3:7 NASB)

"we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" (Ephesians 2:10 NASB bold mine)


That's what the transformation is all about--now being able to do righteous things because you have the righteous nature of Christ through faith in his blood. We don't do righteous things to get the righteousness of Christ (that's the damnable 'works' gospel Paul warns us about). We do righteous things BECAUSE we have the righteousness of Christ.


No sir! That's how faith works unto righteousness, for salvation.

Those who hear the Gospel, must act in obedience upon the command to repent, otherwise the faith they have from hearing the Gospel message is dead, and will not produce a divine result.

In order for the divine result of being forgiven of sins, and made righteous [justified], there must be an obedient turning to God in direct response to the Gospel command repent.

What you don't seem to understand is, the principle that governs the law of faith must be employed for salvation as well as healing or anything else, in order to produce a divine result.

Faith is what brings the invisible into the natural realm.

The way faith works is by obedience.

IOW; Faith works the same way for healing and miracles, raising the dead.... as it does for salvation ie: obedience.

Faith comes by hearing God.

Faith must do what it hears to produce a result.


8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:8-13

The faith action of repenting by confessing Jesus as Lord, together with believing God raised Him from the dead, produces the divine result of salvation by faith.


JLB





 
No sir! That's how faith works unto righteousness, for salvation.
You're going to have to start discerning the difference between 'justification' and 'salvation' in these discussions. Since you don't do that, it's really impossible to discuss this with you.
 
You're going to have to start discerning the difference between 'justification' and 'salvation' in these discussions. Since you don't do that, it's really impossible to discuss this with you.

I would ask you to consider what I'm actually saying in regard to faith, and how faith produces a divine result.

If you can see that faith for salvation works the same as faith for healing or anything else, then you will understand that faith all by itself, if it does not have the corresponding act of obedience is dead.

Are you teaching this Forum that a person can have salvation, apart from justification, which is to say being made righteous?

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 3:27- 4:5

The same Paul in the same letter to the Romans goes on to write -

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:8-13


These two things together, not one of them "all by itself", produces salvation by the righteousness according to faith.

Being declared righteous, [justified] by faith leading to Salvation.


JLB
 
Scripture says he was justified in Gen. 12, then again in Gen. 15. It doesn't say "his faith never wavered" from Gen. 12 onward. Look at the context.

"Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. (Rom 4:19-21 NASB)

When confronted with the promise coming through Sarah instead of Hagar (Gen. 17), he didn't "waver", but was "assured" that God could do it, even though it seemed impossible. This episode comes in Gen. 17, after Ishmael has been born and Abraham assumed the promise would come through him. This is the context, and does not address Abraham's faith up to that point in time.

Well, Abraham did obey the voice of the LORD in Gen.12 But I believed he was not approved or justified until after he accomplished everything the LORD gave him to do.

James 2:18-24 refers to Gen. 22 where Abraham's faith was tested. If Abraham was justified in Gen. 12 and Gen. 15, there would have been no need for a test. But James specifically refers to Gen. 22 when he talks about being justified.

So let's stick to the way God ordered things. Gen. 12 Abraham left his father's house. Gen. 15 he believed God and his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. Gen. 22 his faith was tested and Abraham was justified.

Like I said, nobody approves a man's work until after he does what he is supposed to do.

So I think this proves justification comes at the end of our journey.
 
Last edited:
Well, Abraham did obey the voice of the LORD in Gen.12 But I believed he was not approved or justified until after he accomplished everything the LORD gave him to do.

James 2:18-24 refers to Gen. 22 where Abraham's faith was tested. If Abraham was justified in Gen. 12 and Gen. 15, there would have been no need for a test. But James specifically refers to Gen. 22 when he talks about being justified.

So let's stick to the way God ordered things. Gen. 12 Abraham left his fathers house. Gen. 15 he believed God and his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. Gen. 22 his faith was tested and Abraham was justified.

Like I said, nobody approves a man's work until after he does what he is supposed to do.

So I think this proves justification comes at the end of our journey.


So let's stick to the way God ordered things. Gen. 12 Abraham left his fathers house.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

In you all the nations shall be blessed, is a reference to Genesis 12,
and a foreshadowing of the Gospel in which Gentiles, [as represented by Abraham] are justified by faith, by turning away [repentance] from their old life [fathers house] and obeying the Lord.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Genesis 12:1-3


Genesis 12 is the first time the scriptures, associate Abraham being justified by faith.


Hebrews 11 says it this way -

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:7-8

Both Abraham and Noah obeyed God, and walked in the righteousness which is according to faith, as an example to us who would come afterward.


JLB










 
Here is a good exegesis on the unforgivable sin and Hebrews 6. I'll link the whole article, and copy the relevant paragraphs here.

"Hebrews 6:1-6 reads like this:

"1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
"

The first two verses tell us about "the elementary teachings of Christ"—that is, the basic truths of the Christian faith. This is important because it will set us up for the discussion of apostasy.

Note that they walk us through an ordo salutis—the stages of the Christian life: repentance, faith, baptism, laying on of hands (i.e., confirmation), resurrection, and judgment. Two truths preceding Christian initiation (repentance and faith), two truths at initiation (baptism and confirmation), and two truths at the end of the Christian life (resurrection and judgment).

The author says he won't go over the basic teachings of Christ again because it is impossible to renew to repentance those who have fallen away. This is often a very problematic verse (especially for those who believe it is impossible to lose one's salvation), and is often thought to pertain to the unforgivable sin. However, this is not the case.

To see why, we must first eliminate a dodge that is often used to render this verse a counterfactual hypothetical. As it appears in many English translations, v. 6 is often opened with the clause "if they fall away." However, this is not an accurate rendering of the Greek text, as even eternal securitists (such as Kendall) will admit. The Greek is simply kai parapesontas, which of course means "and (kai) have fallen away (parapesontas)"—parapesontas being an aorist—just like in the other four clauses in the preceding two verses, of which this clause is the final link in the chain of parallel aorist clauses identifying the apostates. The passage, correctly translated, thus reads:

"It is impossible for those who (a) have once been enlightened, (b) have tasted the heavenly gift, (c) and have been made partakers in the Holy Spirit, (d) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, (e) and have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are re-crucifying the Son of God and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Or more shortly:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened . . . and have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are re-crucifying the Son of God and subjecting him to public disgrace."

The Greek of the passage presents the falling away as an accomplished fact, not a hypothetical possibility. (Thus an eternal securitist would have to say that they were never inwardly a Christian to begin with, only outwardly.)

Nevertheless, the passage does not pertain to the unforgivable sin. Many have misread the passage, being misled by the hypothetical ("if . . .") translation of v 6, and have argued: "If a person did fall away then they could not come back because they would have to re-crucify Christ, and that is impossible since he died only once!"

But this is simply not what the passage says. It does not say that if one tried to come back one would have to re-crucify Christ. It does not present the re-crucifixion as something that would need to happen if someone came back. It presents the re-crucifixion as a present reality. Just read the text: "because to their loss they are re-crucifying [present tense, active voice in both Greek and English] the Son of God and subjecting him to public disgrace." The text says that the apostates are re-crucifying Christ now, not that they would need to if they came back.

This is where understanding the Jewish context (and content) of the letter is so important. By returning to Judaism, the apostates are declaring that Jesus was a false Messiah (else they would not leave faith in him as the true Messiah). But by declaring Jesus to be a false Messiah, they are declaring that he deserved what he got when he was crucified—because it is axiomatic that every false Messiah deserves death and public humiliation. They, like the fox in Aesop's fable "The fox and the grapes," are having an attack of sour grapes and were running around saying: "Well, he wasn't the real Messiah. He deserved what he got. He deserved to be crucified and put to public humiliation. As it says in the Torah, 'Cursed is every man who is hung upon a tree!'"

Thus the re-crucifixion and humiliation of Christ was something the apostates were doing while they were maintaining their rebellion against the Messiah they had once accepted. This indicates an enormous hardness of heart, which is why the author tells us, "It is impossible for those . . . to be brought back to repentance." The hardness of their hearts prevents it.

This is, of course, a practical rule rather than a dogmatic (absolute) rule. Because of the hardness of heart the Jewish apostates are displaying by publicly denouncing Jesus, declaring that he deserved crucifixion and humiliation, it is as a practical matter impossible to renew them to repentance and faith in Christ. This does not in any way mean it is an absolute impossibility to renew them to repentance, for "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God" (Mark. 10:27).
"

https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/UNFORGIV.HTM

(Coloring and bolding of the text, not in original article)
Thanks for this post. It seems a worthwhile pursuit to comment on.
While I tend to agree with the explanation of what it means to re-crucify the Christ, it still remains to me, a figurative form of expression, since Christ cannot be crucified more than once. Therefore it is relevant to point out, that scripture seems to be saying that one cannot move on from the elementary principles of repentance and faith, and unto the deeper things of Christ, without first being firmly established in these vital and elementary foundational phases of growth. Therefore the difference between "if they fall away" and, "and fall away" doesn't really alter the premise which is, Hebrews 6:3, And God permitting, we will do so.
 
My argument is Christ was crucified for our justification. By faith we are acquitted, By faith we are approved. By faith we can enter the eternal habitations.
I see nothing wrong with this explanation. It makes perfect sense with all of scripture, particularly concerning the conscience, and the humility of accepting the shortfalls of the corruptible flesh existence without hypocrisy. Hebrews 10:22.
 
Last edited:
You're going to have to start discerning the difference between 'justification' and 'salvation' in these discussions. Since you don't do that, it's really impossible to discuss this with you.

JLB is pretty clear here. You need to change YOUR terms for what works are and what Justify means and what must go with Faith.
Hear me out for a second.

Jas_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The answer to this will always be no, Faith alone is dead, won't save a person, won't justify a person.

There are two ways to activate what you believe inside. You can speak and/or take actions.
Speak and/or Take Action.

Mat_10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
What happens if you don't want to cause problems and don't confess His name before men? Confessing is works according to what you believe. ACTION.

No place in scripture did anyone getting saved it's Written.... "And they poundered to themselves the Lord Jesus, and were justified and given eternal life."
They confessed, they got dunked in Water, they sought to be filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. They did something that would make someone believe they really did believe in the Son of God.

Works:
Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul lets us know that Works does not save, but Paul is not talking about the works/action that accompany's faith in the Lord Jesus. He is talking about keeping a law, or doing your own thing to get approval.

Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Faith is activated when we speak and/or Take action to what we believe. They went to show themselves to the priest, on their way still full of leprosy. It's a big life threatening deal if you show up in the office of the priest full of Leprosy. They believed Jesus and headed on their way to the priest though, that action in their faith made it possible that they were healed on the way the scripture says.

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Choices to be blessed, cursed, to have life or death are made by speaking and/or taking an action. What you really believe in your heart, is how your going to respond to questions about Jesus, and those times you need healed, protected, pay bills, find job, so on.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
(Mat 12:34-37 KJV)

Words are so important, because they tell on us, and tell what is really the abundance in our heart. Idle Words mean non-working in the Greek. It's what is really in us and get activated when put under stress or giving some other response in a situation or emotional drama that normally does not come up.

We can confess all day in church God meets our needs. It' looks a whole lot different at Home when the shut off notices pile up and your not in Church.

So, your justified by faith that must have a corresponding action. You don't get to pick those actions, because what lies dormant the most in your heart will just come out. It's all about the heart.

You can change what is in the heart, by staying laser focused on the Word and replacing all the doubt and junk.
 
You aren't reading carefully enough. Before Jesus even touches their dirty feet he explains to them they are clean.

"He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." (John 13: NASB bold mine)


Of course Jesus was referring to justified people, however "completely clean" and "you are clean" here doesn't mean "always perfectly justified before God despite the stain of [their] sins", which is what you are saying and I am disagreeing with. I hope you will "carefully" read this so we have no more misunderstandings.

Understand? It isn't their dirty feet that makes them unclean. Jesus said to the dirty footed Apostles that they are clean. It's their refusal to have their feet cleaned that puts them at risk of losing their place in Christ. But you say they are unclean with their dirty feet, while Jesus says they are clean with their dirty feet.
Yes, I understand. Do you? Let me try this one more time.

You have Jesus making back-to-back contradictory statements.

1) “If I do not remove your daily sin, you have no justification.”

The first sentence means to you: Unless daily sin is removed, you are not justified. I agree with this.

2) Jesus said to him, “He who has been justified needs only to have his daily sin removed, but is justified; and you are justified, but not all of you.

The second sentence means to you: "always perfectly justified before God despite the stain of our sins". If it means this, it contradicts v.8 because He just said (and you agreed) that unless your daily sins are removed, you lose justification. We disagree here.

How can ongoing justification be contingent upon removing daily sins and despite removing daily sins at the same time?


First sentence: ONGOING justification is contingent upon Me removing your daily sins to REMAIN JUSTIFIED. (We agree)
Second sentence: You are always perfectly justified before God whether you allow Me to remove your sins or not or not. (We disagree)
 
Back
Top