The Process Of Justification

[Jethro Bodine]

Dadof10: "Jesus saying that unless he removes daily sin, we "have no part with" Him. According to you, Jesus says to justified forever people, that unless they have their daily sins removed by Him, they "have no part with" Him. Can a person who has "no part" with Jesus remain (or be) justified?"

Jethro: "No, they do not remain justified. Because as I explained, a decision to continue in sin and not seek the washing of daily sin through Christ is just another way of saying the person has abandoned his faith in Christ. If he hadn't abandoned it that sin would not remain. Repenting of sin is the signature of having the forgiveness of Christ (even if that means repenting 70x7 times). Not repenting of sin signifies that the believer has stopped seeking the forgiveness of God in Christ for that sin. Instead, they have chosen to continue in it, not caring about the forgiveness of God they have received."

I hope you can see why I'm a little confused.

Maybe it's confusing because you equate daily sin with a lack of faith in the blood of Christ to justify?
It's only when our daily sin signifies an underlying loss of faith in the blood of Christ to justify that we then are in danger of in fact losing that justification. Daily sin doesn't remove our place in Christ (good Lord, if that were true we'd all be lost). Loss of faith in Christ will (eventually) rob us of our place in Christ. Paul explains this in Hebrews 11...

" they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. " (Romans 11:20-23 NASB)

See, people are cut out of Christ by God because of a lack of faith, not because they sinned the common sins of mankind. Like I say, if that were true there would be no such thing as salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." (Jhn 13:8 NASB)

We both agree that to "have no part with" Jesus means to lose justification and to "wash you" means removal of daily sin. Jesus is saying "unless you let me remove your daily sin, you will lose your justification". It's no more complicated than that. Certainly, faith is taken for granted, but it is removal of daily sins, not faith alone, that keeps a person from losing his justification.

This does not explain that the believer who has dirty feet that needs washing "is completely clean" (John 13:10 NASB).

 

[MarkT]

He believed in Gen. 12 and was justified. He believed in Gen. 15 and was justified. Yes or no?

Gen. 12 is an example of faith. Abraham believed and he obeyed the voice of the LORD. However Gen. 15 doesn't say he believed and he was justified; rather it says his faith was counted to him as righteousness.

So it's not being justified twice.

 

[MarkT]

He believed in Gen. 12 and he believed in Gen. 15 If he believed, and his faith never wavered, does that mean every time the Bible says he believed, it means he was rejustified? Or did his faith justify him for all time?

 

[dadof10]

Maybe it's confusing because you equate daily sin with a lack of faith in the blood of Christ to justify?

No, I'm confused because you have put forth two contradicting interpretations of the same verse.

"Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." (Jhn 13:8 NASB)

On the one hand you say that "despite their sin, which they are still in" they remain justified, then, on the other hand, you say "No, they do not remain justified."

If "have no part with Me" means "lose justification" and "wash you" means "remove daily sin", then they can't "remain justified" unless they have their daily sins removed. Justification is contingent upon whether we allow Jesus to remove daily sin or not. In this verse, faith has nothing to do with it.

It's only when our daily sin signifies an underlying loss of faith in the blood of Christ to justify that we then are in danger of in fact losing that justification.

Where does this verse say this?

Daily sin doesn't remove our place in Christ (good Lord, if that were true we'd all be lost). Loss of faith in Christ will (eventually) rob us of our place in Christ.

Then "have no part with Me" can't possibly mean "lose justification" or "wash you" can't possibly mean "remove daily sin". For this new (old?) interpretation to make sense, either "wash you" means clean you from "loss of faith in the blood of Christ to justify" and not "daily sins" or it's possible to "have no part with" Christ and still remain justified.

Paul explains this in Hebrews 11...

" they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. " (Romans 11:20-23 NASB)

Hummm...graft them in AGAIN. So, if a "former believer" doesn't "continue in...unbelief", they can be justified again?

See, people are cut out of Christ by God because of a lack of faith, not because they sinned the common sins of mankind. Like I say, if that were true there would be no such thing as salvation.

Yes, I do see that lack of faith will make someone unjustified. I also see that a justified believer (like Peter) not coming to Christ to have his daily sins removed accomplishes the same thing (Jn. 13:8). What makes you think the two are mutually exclusive? It's both/and. I also see, that if a believer is "cut off" by unbelief (loses justification), he can be "grafted in" (be justified again), if he believes again.

 

[dadof10]

This does not explain that the believer who has dirty feet that needs washing "is completely clean" (John 13:10 NASB).

I don't need to explain it, you do. You have said that if a person refuses to have their daily sins removed, he is no longer justified. You need to explain how a person can lose justification, yet still keep it (be "completely clean"). This seems like a contradiction to me, so I'll wait for you to respond before I comment.

 

[dadof10]

Gen. 12 is an example of faith. Abraham believed and he obeyed the voice of the LORD. However Gen. 15 doesn't say he believed and he was justified; rather it says his faith was counted to him as righteousness.

So it's not being justified twice.

Romans 4 does say he was justified in Gen. 15. That's what "credited as righteousness" means.

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Rom 4:1-5 NASB)

Even if you see some kind of difference between "justification" and the infusing of "righteousness", it still begs the question, why did God wait 13 years to finally give Abraham righteousness? If righteousness is given through faith alone, then why wasn't this righteousness given in Gen. 12, when he first believed?

 

[dadof10]

He believed in Gen. 12 and he believed in Gen. 15 If he believed, and his faith never wavered, does that mean every time the Bible says he believed, it means he was rejustified? Or did his faith justify him for all time?

Scripture says he was justified in Gen. 12, then again in Gen. 15. It doesn't say "his faith never wavered" from Gen. 12 onward. Look at the context.

"Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. (Rom 4:19-21 NASB)

When confronted with the promise coming through Sarah instead of Hagar (Gen. 17), he didn't "waver", but was "assured" that God could do it, even though it seemed impossible. This episode comes in Gen. 17, after Ishmael has been born and Abraham assumed the promise would come through him. This is the context, and does not address Abraham's faith up to that point in time.

 

[JLB]

A believer dies the moment they accept Christ by faith. We do not and can not "make" ourselves into Christ by works.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is Paul giving testimony about Himself.

This isn't necessarily true for everyone the moment they first believe.

Paul continually had to warn believers about walking in the flesh and practicing the works of the flesh.

Not everyone has their mind renewed to the degree Paul did.

Not everyone is led by the Spirit the way Paul was, because he had chosen to "put to death the deeds of the flesh".
...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin...
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:4-6,11-12

It's a choice...

WE are called to be transformed into the image of God's Son, That Christ would be formed within us to all the fullness and the stature of a complete man, just like Christ.

13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:13

This does not happen "automatically", but is a process.

That's why the scripture says -

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." (Jhn 13:8 NASB)

On the one hand you say that "despite their sin, which they are still in" they remain justified, then, on the other hand, you say "No, they do not remain justified."

Dirty feet do not forfeit the justification one has in the blood of Christ. Losing your faith, as signified in no longer seeking Christ for the forgiveness of daily sins does.

Jesus himself said the dirty footed Apostles did not need a bath because they are clean, they're whole body is clean (John 13:10). Their dirty feet did not cause them to lose their justified position with God. Unbelief after you have been justified, as signified in a willful, unrepentant sinning, that stops seeking the forgiveness of God is what will lose your justification (eventually). No contradiction here. The dirty feet are only the sign of that which loses your justification--your unbelief.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If "have no part with Me" means "lose justification" and "wash you" means "remove daily sin", then they can't "remain justified" unless they have their daily sins removed. Justification is contingent upon whether we allow Jesus to remove daily sin or not. In this verse, faith has nothing to do with it.

We know from the whole context of scripture that it is sinning that signifies unbelief that causes one to be cut out of the vine (Romans 11:20). Just as righteous deeds signify belief that causes one to be saved (Luke 7:46-50).

The problem is, if you want to insist it is the sinning itself that gets one cut out of the vine (each and every single instance of sin, no matter how small) you contradict other scriptures that say faith is the determining factor in whether or not we are in, and stay in, the vine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hummm...graft them in AGAIN. So, if a "former believer" doesn't "continue in...unbelief", they can be justified again?

Later generations of Isrealites can, and will be, grafted back into their native vine.
Long dead, unbelieving Isrealites are not the ones who will be grafted back in. They died in their sin. The damnation for their unbelief is the only thing they have to look forward to now (Hebrews 10:26-27).

 

[dadof10]

Dirty feet do not forfeit the justification one has in the blood of Christ. Losing your faith, as signified in no longer seeking Christ for the forgiveness of daily sins does.

Jesus himself said the dirty footed Apostles did not need a bath because they are clean, they're whole body is clean (John 13:10). Their dirty feet did not cause them to lose their justified position with God. Unbelief after you have been justified, as signified in a willful, unrepentant sinning, that stops seeking the forgiveness of God is what will lose your justification (eventually). No contradiction here. The dirty feet are only the sign of that which loses your justification--your unbelief.

"Have no part with" Jesus means lose justification, right? Here are the verses again:

Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head." Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." (Jhn 13:8-10 NASB)

Even if you want to assign the loss of justification to "losing faith" (which is nowhere in the text), you have still have a contradiction. You have Jesus saying "lack of faith will make you lose your justification, but you will remain justified." Once you admit that "have no part with me" means "lose justification", you whole construct is contradictory.

"Have no part with me" = lose justification
"but is completely clean" = remains justified

 

[smaller]

This is Paul giving testimony about Himself.

This isn't necessarily true for everyone the moment they first believe.

God in Christ "within" anyone by faith is not 'in need' of our improvements. He's not going to get any more Perfect by our "individual" intents.

Paul continually had to warn believers about walking in the flesh and practicing the works of the flesh.

For our own benefits, yes. We are called away from "slaveship" to sin. The big BUT here is that we are not called into being liars about "having sin." That is not domination over sin/works of the flesh.

Not everyone has their mind renewed to the degree Paul did.

There are no degrees of differences "in Christ." That is the posture of some, sadly.

Paul warned against doing what is being postured in this thread:

2 Corinthians 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

[JLB]

God in Christ "within" anyone by faith is not 'in need' of our improvements. He's not going to get any more Perfect by our "individual" intents.

Agreed. Christ is perfect.

However, we are not. We must choose to "by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh", and to "present ourselves as slaves of God", and "our members as slaves of righteousness".

We must choose to, "walk after the Spirit", and "set our mind on the things of the Spirit".

These are just a few of the choices we have to make if we are to "walk in the Spirit" and to "be led by the Spirit".


These are these that refer to "exercising godliness".

These things speak of growth, and of strengthening our inner man, so as to continually walk in dominion over the sinful desires of the flesh.

Labor to enter His rest, whereby He has formed Himself within the believer, [because the believer has made a conscience choice to yield himself to the work of the Spirit, in exercising godliness, to add to his faith..., and to cooperate with the Spirit in the renewing of the mind] to the point that "the life I live, is the literal life of Christ within me, living His life through me, in which I have become crucified, that is to say dead to the things of this world.

This is not "automatic" as you would presume.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Agreed. Christ is perfect.

However, we are not. We must choose to "by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh", and to "present ourselves as slaves of God", and "our members as slaves of righteousness".

We must choose to, "walk after the Spirit", and "set our mind on the things of the Spirit".

These are just a few of the choices we have to make if we are to "walk in the Spirit" and to "be led by the Spirit".


These are these that refer to "exercising godliness".

These things speak of growth, and of strengthening our inner man, so as to continually walk in dominion over the sinful desires of the flesh.

Labor to enter His rest, whereby He has formed Himself within the believer, [because the believer has made a conscience choice to yield himself to the work of the Spirit, in exercising godliness, to add to his faith..., and to cooperate with the Spirit in the renewing of the mind] to the point that "the life I live, is the literal life of Christ within me, living His life through me, in which I have become crucified, that is to say dead to the things of this world.

This is not "automatic" as you would presume.

JLB

God in Christ can "reveal" Himself, IN FULL, anytime He Pleases to do so. We're not going to "beat Him" out of our vile flesh by our actions. It's not possible.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have Jesus saying "lack of faith will make you lose your justification, but you will remain justified.

Nope, didn't say that.
I'm saying that not coming to Jesus to have your feet washed will result in you losing your justification....forever. Having dirty feet doesn't rob you of your justification. The refusal to have your dirty feet washed will.

 

[MarkT]

Romans 4 does say he was justified in Gen. 15. That's what "credited as righteousness" means.

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Rom 4:1-5 NASB)

Even if you see some kind of difference between "justification" and the infusing of "righteousness", it still begs the question, why did God wait 13 years to finally give Abraham righteousness? If righteousness is given through faith alone, then why wasn't this righteousness given in Gen. 12, when he first believed?

Why not? Wouldn't it make sense God would approve him after he did as the LORD commanded him to do in Gen. 12? Who approves someone before they do what they are supposed to do?

 

[JLB]

God in Christ can "reveal" Himself, IN FULL, anytime He Pleases to do so. We're not going to "beat Him" out of our vile flesh by our actions. It's not possible.
.

I have not idea what your talking about, here. Your statement makes no sense.



JLB

 

[smaller]

I have not idea what your talking about, here. Your statement makes no sense.

JLB

Works do not "make" people into Jesus.