The Process Of Justification

[MarkT]

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

In you all the nations shall be blessed, is a reference to Genesis 12, and a foreshadowing of the Gospel in which Gentiles, [as represented by Abraham] are justified by faith, by turning away [repentance] from their old life [fathers house] and obeying the Lord.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Genesis 12:1-3


Genesis 12 is the first time the scriptures, associate Abraham being justified by faith.


Hebrews 11 says it this way -

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:7-8

Both Abraham and Noah obeyed God, and walked in the righteousness which is according to faith, as an example to us who would come afterward.


JLB

But were they justified before or after they did what they were supposed to do? I see Gen. 22 as a continuation of Ge, 12 and Gen. 15. And I think the order is important. So in Gen. 12 Abraham received the promise and he went out as the LORD commanded him. In Gen. 15 the LORD promised Abraham a son. Abraham believed the LORD and the LORD reckoned his belief as righteousness. In Gen. 21 God gave him a son, Isaac. In Gen. 22 the LORD tested Abraham to see if he would withhold his son. Is Gen. 22 not a continuation of Gen. 12 and Gen. 15?

What happens when we segment the life of Abraham into Ge. 12, 13, 14, 15 etc. We lose the story and everything becomes separated into micro justifications. I don't look at it that way. I see Abraham's faith was active in his life, and in the end, he was justified when he did what the LORD commanded him to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are always perfectly justified before God whether you allow Me to remove your sins or not or not.

That is not my argument.
You're showing me you do not understand my argument. I don't know if you're not listening, or if I'm failing to communicate my position adequately. I finally had to give up talking to JLB about various doctrinal things because he simply could not grasp what I was saying. Perhaps this is where this is headed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB is pretty clear here. You need to change YOUR terms for what works are and what Justify means and what must go with Faith.
Hear me out for a second.

I know the argument well. That's not the problem. The problem is getting Christians to stop interchanging 'justification' and 'salvation' as if they are categorically the exact same thing and can be freely interchanged in any and all sentences.

Jas_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Okay, James is talking about what you have to have to be saved. No problem here. Jesus explains this same thing--people showing up at the Judgment without any works to validate some kind of relationship with him. That hardly means those works are what made us righteous--that is, justified us. That happens through the forgiveness of sins all by itself--all by itself through the mercy of God (Luke 18:13-14).

 

[childeye]

I know the argument well. That's not the problem. The problem is getting Christians to stop interchanging 'justification' and 'salvation' as if they are categorically the exact same thing and can be freely interchanged in any and all sentences.


Okay, James is talking about what you have to have to be saved. No problem here. Jesus explains this same thing--people showing up at the Judgment without any works to validate some kind of relationship with him. That hardly means those works are what made us righteous--that is, justified us. That happens through the forgiveness of sins all by itself--all by itself through the mercy of God (Luke 18:13-14).

It's always semantic confusion that divides through misunderstanding. For what it's worth, I think you are right to request some clarity. But even the term 'justify' can carry more than one inference.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

even the term 'justify' can carry more than one inference.

You are absolutely correct.
And until a person knows this they will continue to invent erroneous doctrines to defuse what they perceive as a contradiction between Paul's 'justification by faith apart from works' (Romans 4:6) and James' 'justification by works' (James 2:24). It's only until a person realizes that 'justified' has at least two distinct Biblical (and secular) definitions that they can then understand that Paul and James are talking about two entirely different things.

 

[dadof10]

That is not my argument.
You're showing me you do not understand my argument. I don't know if you're not listening, or if I'm failing to communicate my position adequately. I finally had to give up talking to JLB about various doctrinal things because he simply could not grasp what I was saying. Perhaps this is where this is headed.

"We see another illustration of this concept of being always perfectly justified before God despite the stain of our sins here:

"8 Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” (John 13:8-10 NASB italics in orig.)

Peter doesn't need a whole bath all over again. He only needs his feet washed. The bath is justification. The washing of the feet is the stain of our daily sin that doesn't necessitate an entire re-washing (re-justification) of the believer."

The Process Of Justification

I said: Jesus saying that unless he removes daily sin, we "have no part with" Him. According to you, Jesus says to justified forever people, that unless they have their daily sins removed by Him, they "have no part with" Him. Can a person who has "no part" with Jesus remain (or be) justified?

Your response: No, they do not remain justified. Because as I explained, a decision to continue in sin and not seek the washing of daily sin through Christ is just another way of saying the person has abandoned his faith in Christ. If he hadn't abandoned it that sin would not remain. Repenting of sin is the signature of having the forgiveness of Christ (even if that means repenting 70x7 times). Not repenting of sin signifies that the believer has stopped seeking the forgiveness of God in Christ for that sin. Instead, they have chosen to continue in it, not caring about the forgiveness of God they have received.

The Process Of Justification

"I'm saying that not coming to Jesus to have your feet washed will result in you losing your justification....forever. Having dirty feet doesn't rob you of your justification. The refusal to have your dirty feet washed will."

The Process Of Justification

Do justified believers remain justified "despite the stain of [their] sins" or is it necessary to have Jesus remove these sins in order to remain justified? You seem to be saying both.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No place in scripture did anyone getting saved it's Written.... "And they poundered to themselves the Lord Jesus, and were justified and given eternal life."
They confessed, they got dunked in Water, they sought to be filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. They did something that would make someone believe they really did believe in the Son of God.

No place?
Will you buy me lunch if I show you there is such a place in scripture?

 

[dadof10]

Well, Abraham did obey the voice of the LORD in Gen.12 But I believed he was not approved or justified until after he accomplished everything the LORD gave him to do.

James 2:18-24 refers to Gen. 22 where Abraham's faith was tested. If Abraham was justified in Gen. 12 and Gen. 15, there would have been no need for a test. But James specifically refers to Gen. 22 when he talks about being justified.

So let's stick to the way God ordered things. Gen. 12 Abraham left his father's house. Gen. 15 he believed God and his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. Gen. 22 his faith was tested and Abraham was justified.

Like I said, nobody approves a man's work until after he does what he is supposed to do.

So I think this proves justification comes at the end of our journey.

So, Abraham was "declared righteous" but not justified? Are you saying that justification only comes after death? Are there no justified people walking around alive, or are there people who have "accomplished everything the LORD gave him to do", and are just waiting to die?

 

[Brother Mike]

I know the argument well. That's not the problem. The problem is getting Christians to stop interchanging 'justification' and 'salvation' as if they are categorically the exact same thing and can be freely interchanged in any and all sentences.


Okay, James is talking about what you have to have to be saved. No problem here. Jesus explains this same thing--people showing up at the Judgment without any works to validate some kind of relationship with him. That hardly means those works are what made us righteous--that is, justified us. That happens through the forgiveness of sins all by itself--all by itself through the mercy of God (Luke 18:13-14).

There is a justification to be saved by Works. Talking about Salvation. I gave examples of it. Scripture even says, confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus. That is an action, a work, doing something according to what you believe.
Doing works to be saved is not anything.
Real faith will respond by speaking at least.

Now justification could be anything. I might be justified by faith that God will meet my need. I would qualify to have that need met. Some guy saying the bills will never get paid is not speaking what God said would happen. He would not be justified by Faith, as there is no faith there, evident by his own conversation.

The guys that did many great works in His name:
Jesus said those that produce fruit doing the will of my Father in Heaven will Reign in Heaven (Rule over things in that day, like the parable of the talents) "KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" Some translations.

The condition was, Fruit must be there, and that happens by doing the will of the Father.

When Jesus said I don't know you, depart as they showed up to get to Rule. They Gave Jesus their list of Works, which was impressive and did take faith and understanding in His name. Cast out devils, Prophecy, many wonderful works all being filled with the Holy Spirit.

They mentioned their Works, Jesus mentioned fruit produced by doing the Will of God. It's clear they used the free gifts and name of Jesus to do their own things and go where they wanted and do what they wanted.

So works did not get them justified.

I know people like this, several. They understand faith, healing and the power of the Name of Jesus, but they won't go or do what God told them to do. They settle for less as they know their called, but they won't sell their house or budge as the Lord directed them long ago.

So, justification does not = Salvation in all cases, so not an absolute.
In some scripture it does though, but still not Salvation.

Rom_4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Brother Mike]

No place?
Will you buy me lunch if I show you there is such a place in scripture?

Sounds like a deal. A place in scripture someone was saved and there was no following action. I am talking about a person who we see the process, not scripture that says, "Many were saved in that day."
They all had evidence of some type that came out due to being saved.

If you win, I Hope you like Mcdonalds drive through. dollar menu of course.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A place in scripture someone was saved and there was no following action. I am talking about a person who we see the process

Maybe I didn't understand what you were saying.
I'll show you in scripture those who did nothing except hear the gospel, believe it, and got filled with the Holy Spirit. No process, no actions as preconditions for getting justified/saved, they just believed what was being spoken and God accepted them. We know that happened by what they then did. But you seem to be suggesting that the doing that came after is a precondition that must be met first in order to be justified.

Believing is the only condition for being justified (made righteous). Now to be saved on the Day of Wrath, that believing, that faith, must still be there as evidenced in the change of life faith brings to a person's behavior. And so it is we must be justified that way, too, in order to be saved. But the behavior is not that which secures our justification or our salvation. It is only the expected and obligatory outcome of being changed into a new creation of God. And so what we do justifies us in regard to showing (not making) us to have the "righteousness (that comes by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

 

[Brother Mike]

Maybe I didn't understand what you were saying.
I'll show you in scripture those who did nothing except hear the gospel, believe it, and got filled with the Holy Spirit. No process, no actions as preconditions for getting justified/saved, they just believed what was being spoken and God accepted them. We know that happened by what they then did. But you seem to be suggesting that the doing that came after is a precondition that must be met first in order to be justified.

Believing is the only condition for being justified (made righteous). Now to be saved on the Day of Wrath, that believing, that faith, must still be there as evidenced in the change of life faith brings to a person's behavior. And so it is we must be justified that way, too, in order to be saved. But the behavior is not that which secures our justification or our salvation. It is only the expected and obligatory outcome of being changed into a new creation of God. And so what we do justifies us in regard to showing (not making) us to have the "righteousness (that comes by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

OK, we need to get on the same page.

The Spirit (Christ anointed one) dwells in our heart by faith.

A man believes in his heart (First) and with the mouth confession is made.

No belief on Jesus, no Holy Spirit, Jesus saying how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask. God must be Father first.

I see what your saying. So now then faith without works is dead.

So then the question is.......... Does what someone believe become true then? Or does it become true after corresponding action to the belief?

Scripture, it only became true after an action was taken because of the belief.

Staff goes down, Red sea splits.
Foot goes in Jordan, River splits.
March around city, it falls down.
Wash the eye's out, get to see again.
Expecting something from Peter, Rise up and walk again.
Paul perceiving a man had faith to be healed, tells him to rise and walk.

Believe on Jesus, confess with mouth.
Believe on Jesus, go get dunked in water.
Believe on Jesus, expect to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Do you see where I am coming from? All these have to be real enough inside (Faith) to step out and expect something to happen.

Lunch still sounds good though.

Mike.

 

[MarkT]

So, Abraham was "declared righteous" but not justified? Are you saying that justification only comes after death? Are there no justified people walking around alive, or are there people who have "accomplished everything the LORD gave him to do", and are just waiting to die?

Gen. 15 says he believed and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness. Was he justified in believing the LORD? Yes. What I mean is he was right to do so. But then why was he tested if he was righteous? God reckoned his belief as righteousness, but in the end, he was still tested. Did Abraham fear God? Would Abraham fall into unbelief? Would he do what the LORD told him to do?

People are tested and they do fall away.

 

[turnorburn]

How does one stop believing in Christ?
Psalm 14:1; "The fool says in his heart, there is no God"
The same root word used for fool is also used for insanity.
So what does that tell you about someone who claims to believe in Christ and then changes his mind?

How does one stop believing in Christ? They don't Rollo, its impossible..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see what your saying. So now then faith without works is dead.

So then the question is.......... Does what someone believe become true then? Or does it become true after corresponding action to the belief?

Scripture, it only became true after an action was taken because of the belief.

Staff goes down, Red sea splits.
...

The household of Cornelius did not do any outward action to receive the Holy Spirit. We know they believed (as evidenced by the tongues). That's all they did:

"44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. " (Acts 10: NASB)

Even in my own conversion, the Holy Spirit entered me when I believed in my heart, accepting the message of the gospel, before I did anything. I know countless Christians (okay, maybe I can count them, lol) who have the same testimony.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you see where I am coming from? All these have to be real enough inside (Faith) to step out and expect something to happen.

True to some extent in the various things you've been using as examples, but not an absolute truth in regard to what one has to do to be justified. The forgiveness of sins does all the justifying. We don't have to perform to be justified. We have to believe. That's all. But that has nothing to do with the fact that once we are justified by simply believing, the righteousness of the new creation we have become must be evident in what we do if we expect to be saved on the Day of Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46).

I liken it to having to be soaking wet in order to be accepted as one who has been swimming. The being wet part is simply the expected and obligatory outcome of one who has been swimming in the water as claimed. Without that evidence we have no choice but to conclude that person has NOT been in the water. So it will be on the Day of Wrath. Jesus will be looking for the righteous work of love as the evidence upon which he will grant entry into the kingdom. It doesn't earn you passage into the kingdom. That love, that work is simply what he will use to validate the faith that qualifies you for passage into the kingdom.

 

[Brother Mike]

The household of Cornelius did not do any outward action to receive the Holy Spirit. We know they believed (as evidenced by the tongues). That's all they did:

"44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. " (Acts 10: NASB)

Even in my own conversion, the Holy Spirit entered me when I believed in my heart, accepting the message of the gospel, before I did anything. I know countless Christians (okay, maybe I can count them, lol) who have the same testimony.

I actually looked at Acts and that passage.

So, we are way off the topic of just having faith for some process of Justification. We are trying to find what came first to (Justify, make come to pass, activate what the Word said)

Pretty clear Faith has to be first, it's listed first.
Jame still said, Faith without Works is dead. We don't ignore any scriptures.

Tongues, you have to step out and speak. For me it was what I heard on the Movie caveman, I was not going to give up. Glad God has a sense of Humor.

What is spirit is spirit, and what is physical is physical. For the two to connect legally, there must be some type of action by faith. God just did not think of animals. He grabbed some dirt and made them, fully expecting them to be alive. God did not just think of The land separating from water, He spoke.

So I guess, why did you go to, or stop and listen to some Gospel that caused faith? The act of going, stopping to listen is an action that expects. Let him have ears to hear, is a hearing physical action. It's acting on what you expect. If it was just faith alone, then we hook up the loud speaker and get everyone saved, then get the heck outta here.

And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
(Act 3:5-6 KJV)

What happens to him if He just ignores them, thinking there goes those cheap skate preachers again. They never have money on them, I hope they don't stop and talk to me about Jesus again.

I hope I made sense.

Blessings to you.

Mike.

 

[dadof10]

Gen. 15 says he believed and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness. Was he justified in believing the LORD? Yes. What I mean is he was right to do so. But then why was he tested if he was righteous? God reckoned his belief as righteousness, but in the end, he was still tested. Did Abraham fear God? Would Abraham fall into unbelief? Would he do what the LORD told him to do?

People are tested and they do fall away.

Could it be possible that he was "tested" to see if he would REMAIN faithful, and therefore REMAIN justified? The fact that he was tested doesn't necessarily mean that God wanted to see if he was worthy of justification. It could be that He was testing His justified servant to see if he would obey and stay justified.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So I guess, why did you go to, or stop and listen to some Gospel that caused faith? The act of going, stopping to listen is an action that expects. Let him have ears to hear, is a hearing physical action. It's acting on what you expect. If it was just faith alone, then we hook up the loud speaker and get everyone saved, then get the heck outta here.

Were they justified by hearing the gospel, or because they believed what they heard? That's the point. The doing has no power to justify. Only the believing part has the power to secure justification. Believing does that all by itself. That's Paul's point.

See, we really don't need to split hairs on exactly what constitutes 'works' in Paul's "righteousness apart from works" teaching (Romans 4:6 NASB) in order to inch some of our 'doings' over to the faith side of what justifies. Why? Because what he contrasts those works with rules all of them out. The nature of believing in the heart and securing God's forgiveness that way instantly differentiates that way to be justified with doing something to be justified. You don't get forgiven by doing something. You get forgiven (and, thus, justified) by believing...believing that God will keep his promise that Christ's blood will cleanse away your sin. Doing something does not secure that. Only believing does that. That's why justification is described as being by God's grace, not by something we do.

Now enter what you have been saying: Corresponding actions are expected from the one who has now believed God has forgiven their sins. Not because those actions have power to justify (make righteous) and faith can't justify all by itself and are needed for that reason, as is being suggested in this thread. But because those actions are what people who believe they have already been forgiven by the grace of God do. Their actions being the expected and obligatory outcome of that believing. Loving others being the single most expected obedience of the now forgiven and justified believer. And again not because love is somehow needed to make a person righteous, forgiven, and justified in God's sight (that's exactly the damnable works gospel Paul warns against), but because the expected response to already possessing God's love by faith is to then give that same love out to others:

"her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”" (Luke 7:47 NASB)

"We love, because He first loved us. " (1 John 4:19 NASB)

See, his love, his grace comes first, through our faith in that love. Then we do things commensurate with the love we have already received. But the argument being put forth here in this thread is we have to do things first to solicit that love. No, believing in God's promise of the blood to cleanse your sin all by itself secures that promise. All by itself. No 'doing' required. Works from that point onward being the expected evidence of having secured the promise of God's love. And so works only being required for salvation in that sense.

 

[JLB]

But were they justified before or after they did what they were supposed to do? I see Gen. 22 as a continuation of Ge, 12 and Gen. 15.

Just like our journey of Salvation starts with turning to God, and ends at the end of our life with receiving the promise, ie; the salvation of our soul. 1 Peter 1:9

But were they justified before or after they did what they were supposed to do? I see Gen. 22 as a continuation of Ge, 12 and Gen. 15. And I think the order is important. So in Gen. 12 Abraham received the promise and he went out as the LORD commanded him. In Gen. 15 the LORD promised Abraham a son. Abraham believed the LORD and the LORD reckoned his belief as righteousness. In Gen. 21 God gave him a son, Isaac. In Gen. 22 the LORD tested Abraham to see if he would withhold his son. Is Gen. 22 not a continuation of Gen. 12 and Gen. 15?

What happens when we segment the life of Abraham into Ge. 12, 13, 14, 15 etc. We lose the story and everything becomes separated into micro justifications. I don't look at it that way. I see Abraham's faith was active in his life, and in the end, he was justified when he did what the LORD commanded him to do.

I agree with you he was justified when he did what the Lord commanded him to do. Where I think you and I differ in perspective, is I see each and everything the Lord commanded him to do [being justified by faith along the way] as an integral building block of the overall purpose of God, bringing to pass His promise to him to make him a great nation and in him all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. [ie: Jesus Christ]

• If Abraham doesn't get out and go.... there is no receiving the promised land, no great nation, no Messiah.
• If Abraham doesn't believe the Lord while looking up at the stars, then he won't have relations with his wife Sarah, and there will be no foreshadowing of the miracle birth of Christ.
• The sacrifice of Issac foreshadows the sacrifice of God only Son.

Without the initial step of faith, there is no receiving the fulfillment of the promise.

That's why the scripture says from faith to faith... the just will live [have eternal life] by faith, that is to say from one step of faith to the next.

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” Romans 1:17


Not just one act of faith, but a lifestyle of faith to the end, in which we will receive the salvation of our soul.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9


JLB