The Process Of Justification

[JLB]

There are no sinless christians, period. There are some schools of thought that describe the Justification as "imputed" but not yet fully complete, until we pass from our present corrupted by sin body into our Final Body, that of Christ.


That doesn't apply to the flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit. Previously cited in Gal. 5:17


Jesus in "hell" is a whole nother subject. And one that I don't buy into.



Well, bravo for at least making that distinction. There is no justification available for the body. It is flesh and it is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. And the Spirit is likewise against the flesh.

Every believer bears, in their own flesh, the state of "contrariness." Just as Paul taught us. There is no way to justify that which is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. It won't and can not happen.

God is no respecter of any person exactly on this ground, because "all" bear the contrary state of the flesh. And that, because of indwelling sin.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:7-10

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

If we confess our sin, He is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


If I walk in the light and the blood of Jesus cleanses me from all sin, what sin does His blood not cleanse me of?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To do a proper exegesis, a person has to use the words in the text, not just substitute the word "faith" whenever something is said to effect justification, because "scripture teaches justification is by faith alone".

This is a thread about if justification is a process, or a one-time event:

I believe justification is a process, not a one time event

I've been showing from several passages that it is indeed a one-time event, with John 13:5-10 being the teaching that Jesus himself gave us that shows us that the bathed person is COMPLETELY CLEAN despite his dirty feet:

“He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean" (John 13:10 NASB)

IOW, the 'dirty' believer does not lose his justification because of his dirty feet. As Jesus said, he is "completely clean". So it's not the dirty feet that makes the COMPLETELY clean person in Christ not COMPLETELY clean in Christ anymore. It's refusing to get your feet washed that does that:

“Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” (John 13:8 NASB)

It's right there in plain words in our Bibles for us to see. Your dirty feet is not what puts you at risk of losing one's place in Christ. Refusing to get your dirty feet washed is what does that.

 

[WIP]

Actually that is the definition of justified... made just as if you never sinned.

We are given His righteousness, and heaven which we didn't deserve.

He was given our unrighteousness, and hell in which He didn't deserve.


The only way we will be allowed into heaven is because we have been made sinless, not our bodies for which He condemned sin in the flesh, but our inner man.

If we have one sin, then we are guilty of all.


JLB

Hmm... I hope to read more between you and smaller on this point. I've understood that justification is being counted as righteous.

Sort of like when a president issues a pardon. The person being pardoned is still guilty but in the eyes of the government, ergo the law, that person is no longer considered guilty and their record is wiped clean. That still does not remove the actual guilt.

Or here's another example to explain my understanding...forgiveness. If I sin against another and then that person forgives me, the transgression still exists nonetheless, but it is no longer counted against me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

a person has to use the words in the text, not just substitute the word "faith" whenever something is said to effect justification, because "scripture teaches justification is by faith alone". Again, you are begging the question or assuming the conclusion.

You are the one using the 'faith/works vs. faith alone' argument to make your point. Not me. You're the one using works of faith to show when justification happens. But if just the suggestion comes up in my argument that justification happens by faith all by itself then you jump on me for using the 'faith/works vs. faith alone' argument to prove my point. I don't need to settle that question to defend what Jesus said about the completely clean, but dirty footed believer, only being able to lose his place in Christ by refusing to have his feet washed, not by simply having dirty feet (John 13:5-10).

 

[smaller]

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:7-10

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

It seems you have transposed cleansing from "unrighteousness" to cleansing from sin.

Fact remains, every believer remains a sinner til the day our flesh dies, as a reality.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

If we confess our sin, He is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We, as believers, do not have the "accounting" of sin placed to us. That doesn't mean sin/evil won't be accounted for.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

If I walk in the light and the blood of Jesus cleanses me from all sin, what sin does His blood not cleanse me of?

The blood of Jesus made zero believers sinless, that's a certainty.

You can settle the issue from your end and just leap headlong into a claim of being sinless. I think you know in advance that 99.99% of believers will see that as an obvious lie.

The contrary to the Spirit flesh is never justified, can't be and won't be. And all believers have this contrariness because of sin indwelling the flesh.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness.)

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Trying to justify that which is openly stated as contrary is not going to happen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If I sin against another and then that person forgives me, the transgression still exists nonetheless, but it is no longer counted against me.

Right. That's why our justification is a legal justification (you aren't actually ever completely righteous in deed). This point of legal righteousness being what dadof10 resisted.

And this legal declaration is never removed, even when we are unrighteous again. The only thing being able to remove our legal declaration of 'right standing' is our repeated refusal to get the outward unrighteousness of our Christian walk (our dirty feet) washed away.

 

[smaller]

Right. That's why our justification is a legal justification (you aren't actually ever completely righteous in deed). This point of legal righteousness being what dadof10 resisted.

And this legal declaration is never removed, even when we are unrighteous again. The only thing being able to remove our legal declaration of 'right standing' is our repeated refusal to get the outward unrighteousness of our Christian walk (our dirty feet) washed away.

The supposed washing of dirty feet makes zero believers sinless.

There is no way to make the flesh, which is openly shown and proven outright to be contrary to the Spirit, NOT contrary to the Spirit. And that's what's being attempted.
(Edit, ToS 2.4, implying a member is dishonest without justification. Obadiah) deal with the scriptural facts of having contrary flesh, rather than (Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness, Obadiah) trying to coverup this factual contrariness and
(Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness, Obadiah) trying to justify this contrariness.

God respects NO PERSON and does not because of the fact of this contrariness.

This is also why "works" salvation, as it is commonly proposed, will never work because NO WORK removes this contrariness to the Spirit either.

Believers are saved by Grace through the FULLY COMPLETED work of Christ Alone through their faith in His Ability to SAVE us. We have faith in our Savior to actually SAVE, because we can not save ourselves. NOR can we make ourselves sinless. Nor can we "justify" ourselves. Nor can we remove our contrariness by any means or measures including OBEDIENCE.

It is exactly on this ground that we are shown and PROVEN our NEED of our Savior.

 

[smaller]

Will our Savior SAVE our contrariness? Uh, no.

Will our Savior make our contrariness OBEDIENT? Uh, no.

Will our Savior JUSTIFY our contrariness? NEVER! Not in a gazillion years will any contrariness to the Spirit be bailed out or allowed into God's Grace. It will never ever happen.

What will happen is this. Our body will DIE and it will so because it is contrary.

At the completion of the full number of believers who have lived their lives, and the entire compilation of those members of faith IN HIM is completed, THEN the current exercises of this present world will be WRAPPED UP and CHRIST WILL BE FULLY REVEALED, us inclusive, IN HIS PERFECT BODY.

Until then, we wait this full unveiling, planted in a genuine real contrary to the Spirit condition of our own flesh.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Trying to make our vile body justified, obedient, faithful, under Mercy, Graced, forgiven or anything of the Spirit is factually impossible, because it is VILE and CONTRARY to the SPIRIT.

My personal standard of "associations" with REAL believers entails such to actually be HONEST about this real conflict.

Trying to play the innumerable "religious games" to REMOVE this conflict/contrariness is just a patent waste of time by believers trying to perform the IMPOSSIBLE.

Does God in Christ save us? Yes. Does He save our contrariness?

NEVER.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The supposed washing of dirty feet makes zero believers sinless.

It does until the next time you sin. Then you get your feet washed again. But none of this has any effect on the fact that the believer is completely clean already in the sight of God (John 13:5-10).

Believers are saved by Grace through the FULLY COMPLETED work of Christ Alone through their faith in His Ability to SAVE us.

That's why your dirty feet can't rob you of your justification. Only rejecting the faith that secured the completed work of Christ for you can rob you of justification and salvation. And that rejecting of the faith will be signified by the believer not coming to Christ for the washing of his dirty feet. IOW, signified by a continuing lifestyle of unrepentant sin. Just as John said in 1 John 3:7-10.

 

[smaller]

It does until the next time you sin. Then you get your feet washed again. But none of this has any affect on the fact that the believer is completely clean already in the sight of God (John 13:5-10).

I find it hard to believe that any believer can believe such an exercise as "footwashing" makes them sinless.

Were that really the case we'd all be standing in a perpetual washbin and never move.

Same with any other exercise that is proposed to make us sinless. IF there is such a format, that's ALL we would do.

The fact is my friend, NOBODY makes themselves sinless because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit and this factual contrariness can not be make into something that it's not.

Gal. 5:17

For what it's worth, I FELL into the LIE of a particular religious organization, a big and fleshly popular one that's been around for a long time that sold me the lie that by doing certain exercises or rituals, that I, big old I, big old prideful ME ME ME could make himself sinless.

I utterly failed. Then, I was "made" honest by The Spirit pointing out the obvious problem.

Oh sez "I." I get it!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does He save our contrariness?

NEVER.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I see Paul talking about people who aren't what they used to be, contrary to your doctrine that says we will always be the thieves and adulterers and drunks, etc. that we once were. What a hopeless gospel you preach.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I find it hard to believe that any believer can believe such an exercise as "footwashing" makes them sinless.

Get serious.
Do you really think this has been about literal foot washing?
(Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness, Obadiah)

 

[smaller]

Get serious.
Do you really think this has been about literal foot washing?
(Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness, Obadiah)

Whether by physical footwashing or some supposed "encounter" with the imaginations of a psuedo religious charade engaging The Spirit REMOVING the factual contrariness of our flesh doesn't matter.

It's still contrary regardless of the religious imaginations of the contrary FLESH.

Gal. 5:17 nails this matter dead in it's tracks.

 

[smaller]

I see Paul talking about people who aren't what they used to be, contrary to your doctrine that says we will always be the thieves and adulterers and drunks, etc. that we once were. What a hopeless gospel you preach.

Yeah, religious people always see it's a problem of the other guy and never the reality of our own contrary flesh.

We are to rule over our own sin, NOT deny we have same to rule over by lying about having sin or being sinners or having this contrary condition of the flesh.

We are not to "let" sin reign in our mortal body, but sin IS there, IN the mortal body, to reign over.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness, Obadiah) By doing exactly that, claiming we have no sin, or claiming our contrary flesh is obedient or saved or whatever (Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness, Obadiah) we claim about this contrariness, we have been deceived by that contrary flesh and the sin indwelling it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Whether by physical footwashing or some supposed "encounter" with the imaginations of a psuedo religious charade engaging The Spirit REMOVING the factual contrariness of our flesh doesn't matter.

It's still contrary regardless of the religious imaginations of the contrary FLESH.

Gal. 5:17 nails this matter dead in it's tracks.

Good grief, smaller. Don't you know anything about the flesh being put to death by the Spirit? We were not given the Spirit to continue to languish unabated in our sinful flesh. No, the Spirit was given to crucify the flesh.

"if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13 NASB)

Or do you believe that the Spirit can not crucify the flesh? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yeah, religious people always see it's a problem of the other guy and never the reality of our own contrary flesh.

We are to rule over our own sin, NOT deny we have same to rule over by lying about having sin or being sinners or having this contrary condition of the flesh.

We are not to "let" sin reign in our mortal body, but sin IS there, IN the mortal body, to reign over.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

There is no reign in lying. By doing exactly that, claiming we have no sin, or claiming our contrary flesh is obedient or saved or whatever ungodly nonsense we claim about this contrariness, we have been deceived by that contrary flesh and the sin indwelling it.

YOU are the one making it into a self-righteous argument of 'religious' people. You got burned by some losers who thought they were sinless and you're projecting that experience onto every Christian that dare suggest that one can actually not be the adulterer, fornicator, or drunkard they used to be. Arguing for that does NOT mean you think you are sinless and perfect and above temptation. Shame on you for trying to make us who defend the power of the Spirit feel that way. That's some contrariness that needs to die....now.

 

[smaller]

Or do you believe that the Spirit can not crucify the flesh? Is that what you're saying?

I don't believe ANY exercise of the Spirit will ever justify the flesh because it is factually contrary to the Spirit and the Spirit of TRUTH, SAYS it is like it is.

That is exactly why we aim our own body to our own respective cross. That is why Paul accounted himself as DEAD DAILY. Because he had contrary FLESH to put to death.

Just like the rest of us do.

1 Corinthians 15:31
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't believe ANY exercise of the Spirit will ever justify the flesh because it is factually contrary to the Spirit and the Spirit of TRUTH, SAYS it is like it is.

That is exactly why we aim our own body to our own respective cross. That is why Paul accounted himself as DEAD DAILY. Because he had contrary FLESH to put to death.

Just like the rest of us do.

1 Corinthians 15:31
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Honestly, I think it's time to address the mods about this continual hijacking of threads with this ridiculously misguided doctrine of yours. Sorry bro. You're really provoking us to anger with this tearing down of the power of the Christian faith.

I don't want to see this thread get closed over this derailment, so I'm not touching it again. I hope everyone else will leave it alone too, so this thread stays open. Thank you.

 

[smaller]

YOU are the one making it into a self-righteous argument of 'religious' people. You got burned by some losers who thought they were sinless

YEP. That's exactly right. And I got sucked into their pseudo christian religious LIES and was, in the process, made into a LIAR myself by simply not being HONEST about the contrariness to the Spirit of my own sorry hide.

and you're projecting that experience onto every Christian that dare suggest that one can actually not be the adulterer, fornicator, or drunkard they used to be.

Do I buy the claims that sin is only what shows up on the outside? Again, never! Never again will I buy this open lie that is fostered like Santa Clause in many christian institutions. They are simply liars about their own factual contrary flesh, shown on the outside OR NOT, the flesh remains contrary to the Spirit.

Arguing for that does NOT mean you think you are sinless and perfect and above temptation.

We can paint up our flesh in any fashion we please. It's STILL contrary to the Spirit.

Shame on you for trying to make us who defend the power of the Spirit feel that way. That's some contrariness that needs to die....now.

Well, shame on me for being HONEST.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I thought washing the feet was "removing daily sin", now it's "having faith"??? Sorry, you are moving the goal posts.

How does a person get their proverbial 'dirty feet' washed if not by faith in the forgiveness of God to do that? Obviously, not getting your feet washed is a rejection of faith in God to do that.