The Process Of Justification

[JLB]

Were they justified by hearing the gospel, or because they believed what they heard? That's the point. The doing has no power to justify. Only the believing part has the power to secure justification. Believing does that all by itself. That's Paul's point.

Only obedience has the power to secure justification, as without it faith is dead.

Paul teaches this principle clearly, as it takes the divine formula of believing in the heart and confessing with your mouth, to produce a divine result.

We can not disregard the principle of how faith works, which is the corresponding act of obedience, in which we do what we hear, that will cause faith to produce a divine result.

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

Without the action of her faith, by touching the hem of His Garment, this woman would not have been healed.


Let's look at another perspective of this same story.


But as He went, the multitudes thronged Him. 43 Now a woman, having a flow of blood for twelve years, who had spent all her livelihood on physicians and could not be healed by any, 44 came from behind and touched the border of His garment. And immediately her flow of blood stopped.

And Jesus said, “Who touched Me?”

When all denied it, Peter and those with him said, “Master, the multitudes throng and press You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’”

But Jesus said, “Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power going out from Me.” 47 Now when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling; and falling down before Him, she declared to Him in the presence of all the people the reason she had touched Him and how she was healed immediately. Luke 8:42-47

Many people were touching Him, but it was the woman who believed in heart, If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well... and acted with faith/obedience that was granted a divine result.


Likewise Paul teaches this principle concerning salvation by faith.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:8-13


The message of faith that Paul preached: believe and confess.

"Believing all by itself" is not the message of faith Paul preached.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Only obedience has the power to secure justification, as without it faith is dead.

Pure blasphemy. Not a chance. Not even remotely.

In the very moment one believes and receives the gospel his faith is technically 'dead' having no works (that's the definition of 'dead faith'). No one can argue that point. Cornelius is the premier Biblical example of that. His story demonstrates how faith all by itself secures the effect of Jesus' blood in justification. But, surely, it is faith that remains that way that can not save on the day of Wrath. If Cornelius had not ever lifted a finger to be baptized, love others, etc. he would be showing he lost the justification he received through his believing all by itself, and so he will not be saved on the Day of Wrath.

This is why it is important that the church start recognizing the difference between being justified and being saved. You can't interchange them in any and all sentences and contexts as if they are categorically the exact same word. Justification (being made righteous) is by faith alone. That justification qualifies one to then be saved. Works are what Christ will use to validate us as having the faith that justifies all by itself, or not, on the Day of Wrath. So in that sense works are indeed 'required' to be saved, but not in order to 'make' us righteous (justify us), but in order to 'show' us to have the righteousness of Christ by faith (also called being justified). Works have zero power to make a person righteous. They are only the expected and obligatory outcome of the faith that makes righteous all by itself "apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can not disregard the principle of how faith works, which is the corresponding act of obedience, in which we do what we hear, that will cause faith to produce a divine result.

Two things:
You need to stop applying certain truths that apply to justification to matters of healing, the receiving of gifts, etc.
And you need to start defining exactly what 'divine result' you are talking about, because justification, salvation, healing, the gifts, etc. are all divine results that spring from faith, but which can hardly all be lumped together with justification in regard to works.

 

[JLB]

Pure blasphemy. Not a chance. Not even remotely.

In the very moment one believes and receives the gospel his faith is technically 'dead' having no works. No one can argue that point. Cornelius is the premier Biblical example of that. His story demonstrates how faith all by itself secures the effect of Jesus' blood in justification. But, surely, it is faith that remains that way that can not save on the day of Wrath. If Cornelius had not ever lifted a finger to be baptized, love others, etc. he would be showing he lost the justification he received through his believing all by itself, and so he will not be saved on the Day of Wrath.

This is why it is important that the church start recognizing the difference between being justified and being saved. You can't interchange them in any and all sentences and contexts as if they are categorically the exact same word. Justification (being made righteous) is by faith alone. That justification qualifies one to then be saved. Works are what Christ will use to validate us as having the faith that justifies all by itself, or not, on the Day of Wrath. So in that sense works are indeed 'required' to be saved, but not in order to 'make' us righteous (justify us). Works have zero power to make a person righteous. They are only the expected and obligatory outcome of the faith that makes righteous all by itself "apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB).

His story demonstrates how faith all by itself secures the effect of Jesus' blood in justification.

As you have been shown clearly from the bible, Cornelius was saved the same way as everyone, through repentance.

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:18

This is why it is important that the church start recognizing the difference between being justified and being saved.

Where do "justified" people who are not saved end up, heaven or hell?

Pure blasphemy. Not a chance. Not even remotely.

If you want to teach people that it's blasphemy to confess Jesus as YHWH, the Lord of the Old Testament, then that's on you.


Here is what the scriptures plainly teach.


8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved... But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:8-13,16-17

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Direct quote from Joel 2, and is a direct reference to YHWH.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where do "justified" people who are not saved end up, heaven or hell?

No such thing.
Justification precedes salvation.
You have to be justified in order to be saved.
Lose your justification and you lose your salvation.

 

[reba]

not necessarily direct at the last poster OK you guys this has been a long and good discussion lets leave it that way ..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As you have been shown clearly from the bible, Cornelius was saved the same way as everyone, through repentance.

Your big problem here is you think repentance only means a change in ones behavior. But the Bible speaks of the need for actions to be conformed to one's repentance (Acts 26:20), showing us that repentance is also a change of heart about the gospel, not just a change in behavior as you can only understand it. The point being, the only repentance required by Cornelius to be saved, and the only repentance he had in order to be justified (as evidenced by him receiving the Holy Spirit) was a change of heart and mind about the gospel. His repentant actions (i.e. baptism) came AFTER he was justified.

 

[JLB]

Two things:
You need to stop applying certain truths that apply to justification to matters of healing, the receiving of gifts, etc.
And you need to start defining exactly what 'divine result' you are talking about, because justification, salvation, healing, the gifts, etc. are all divine results that spring from faith, but which can hardly all be lumped together with justification in regard to works.

I am teaching the principle of the law of faith.

Faith only works by obedience.

If you disobey what you hear from God, that produces faith in your heart, your faith is dead.

Divine result that is produce by faith, ie; spiritual birth, healing, miracles, receiving a job, contracts, food, an Ark to save your household... anything God desires to bless you with.

Anything that is received from God by faith; divine result is the obtaining of the thing from God.


JLB

 

[reba]

watching

 

[JLB]

Your big problem here is you think repentance only means a change in ones behavior. But the Bible speaks of the need for actions to be conformed to one's repentance (Acts 26:20), showing us that repentance is also a change of heart about the gospel, not just a change in behavior as you can only understand it. The point being, the only repentance required by Cornelius to be saved, and the only repentance he had in order to be justified (as evidenced by him receiving the Holy Spirit) was a change of heart and mind about the gospel. His repentant actions (i.e. baptism) came AFTER he was justified.

Repent means to turn to God [in committed submission], by turning away from Satan as lord.

Look at the language carefully in what Jesus commissioned Paul to do.

16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:16-18

in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins...

The way we are forgiven our sins is by repentance. That is to say turning to God to serve Him, by turning away from serving Satan.

It doesn't say repenting of your sins, it says repent, or repentance.

Repent means to turn away from serving Satan, by turning to God to serve Him as Lord.

It is a change of heart and mind who you will serve as your Lord and Master, and whose kingdom you will be a part of.

It doesn't say "repent of your sins", for no one can do that until they have God's Spirit within them.

The way you are given God's Spirit is by repenting, turning to God, and confessing Jesus as your Lord, which means you will now serve Him in His Kingdom.

It's a life long commitment that is demonstrated by the initial act of obedience to confess with your mouth, Jesus as Lord.

By doing this you are translated out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of God's Son.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14



JLB

 

[JLB]

Your big problem here is you think repentance only means a change in ones behavior.

Please show me the post where I mentioned the word behavior.

The act of confessing Jesus as Lord, is the act of repentance.

But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:6-9


But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart...

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”... that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart...

Why do you want to separate this divine formula of the righteousness of faith?


Read it again -

But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way... There is your justification. The righteousness of faith.

Faith that produces justification.... But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart...

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”... that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart...


The Message of the righteousness of faith in your mouth and in your heart”.

This is a two part divine recipe called the righteousness of faith... in your mouth and in your heart”.

Change this into "believing all by itself", is like taking a dollar bill and tearing it in half and expecting to buy something worth 50 cents.

It's worthless and can not buy anything.

Likewise faith or believing all by itself is dead and can not save, nor produce a divine result.


JLB

 

[JLB]

watching

 

[Brother Mike]

Were they justified by hearing the gospel, or because they believed what they heard? That's the point. The doing has no power to justify. Only the believing part has the power to secure justification. Believing does that all by itself. That's Paul's point.

See, his love, his grace comes first, through our faith in that love. Then we do things commensurate with the love we have already received. But the argument being put forth here in this thread is we have to do things first to solicit that love. No, believing in God's promise of the blood to cleanse your sin all by itself secures that promise. All by itself. No 'doing' required. Works from that point onward being the expected evidence of having secured the promise of God's love. And so works only being required for salvation in that sense.

Had to read through this a couple times.
Then we are going beyond the scope of this thread and trying to strain the nat. God first loved us, so there is no thread by a simple scripture.
You talked about just the belief of going to God to forgive you is enough. I say the action taken to ask God for forgiveness and calling out to him is your faith in forgiveness taking an action. You don't go to him if you don't think you can be forgiven, or you beg asking if it's his will to forgive you. That is action without faith.

My stance is that if I believe I might hear something at a church that might help me, or just go to check it out is a faith and expectation I am acting on. It just turns out on that day I get saved.

If I don't have a belief I will get anything worth anything, then I would have not taken action and stayed home.

We have not if we ask not. Since Jesus said you have what you say (Mark 11:23) not have what your think on, then there would have to be the action of making a declaration or speaking.
James still said faith without Works is dead, so it can't be just works (Action) and it can't be just faith. It has to be both.

Devils have faith in God, but there is no action the determines they believe He is all powerful and they are to be judged. They don't obey God by any action to their belief.

However the thread I think is about doing good things to get justified, not the fine details we are talking about here which would not even be important as someone that believes in Jesus will show it.

Good stuff Brother, I think we are trying to fine tune it more than this thread requires. Pretty deep stuff, makes you think and thank you for sharing with me.

Mike.

 

[reba]

SOme really do get there Jethro.. some really do..

 

[Brother Mike]

Gen. 15 says he believed and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness. Was he justified in believing the LORD? Yes. What I mean is he was right to do so. But then why was he tested if he was righteous? God reckoned his belief as righteousness, but in the end, he was still tested. Did Abraham fear God? Would Abraham fall into unbelief? Would he do what the LORD told him to do?

People are tested and they do fall away.

I take it your not in the Election or Foreknowledge camps. Good to see that.

Mike.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

SOme really do get there Jethro.. some really do..

Yeah, I suppose that's true.

 

[Brother Mike]

Your big problem here is you think repentance only means a change in ones behavior. But the Bible speaks of the need for actions to be conformed to one's repentance (Acts 26:20), showing us that repentance is also a change of heart about the gospel, not just a change in behavior as you can only understand it. The point being, the only repentance required by Cornelius to be saved, and the only repentance he had in order to be justified (as evidenced by him receiving the Holy Spirit) was a change of heart and mind about the gospel. His repentant actions (i.e. baptism) came AFTER he was justified.

Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
(Act 10:17 KJV)

What happens to Cornelius if He did not act on his belief and send for Peter? He just blew it off and went to the football game instead?
Does Cornelius still get the same results?

I know the action of walking into the Church (Works) may not seem to be linked to being saved through faith in the Lord Jesus. Taking action /to say something or do something according to what you believe is still Faith that was activated. There has to be some corresponding Action to a belief, or the results are not the same.

Faith without works (Action) (IS) < than Results received by taking action (Works) to what one believes.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

What happens to Cornelius if He did not act on his belief and send for Peter?

I've explained that several times to him, to no avail.

If you look at all the the obedient things Cornelius did to receive the Gospel in his household, it's really awesome.

And they said, “Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you.” Acts 10:22

Cornelius was a man who feared God, prayed and gave to the poor, which indicated he had already turned to God.

All he needed was to hear about Christ Jesus very similar to the disciples of John in Acts 19.

That's why those who heard the story said...

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:18


Reminds me of another Centurion -

5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”

7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed.9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed,“Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! Matthew 8:5-10

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What happens to Cornelius if He did not act on his belief and send for Peter? He just blew it off and went to the football game instead?
Does Cornelius still get the same results?

No, because he doesn't believe. Not because he didn't do something. His lack of doing is simply the evidence of his unbelief.

I know the action of walking into the Church (Works) may not seem to be linked to being saved through faith in the Lord Jesus. Taking action /to say something or do something according to what you believe is still Faith that was activated. There has to be some corresponding Action to a belief, or the results are not the same.

Faith without works (Action) (IS) < than Results received by taking action (Works) to what one believes.

The power of justification is in the believing, not in what we do. That's the point, and the only point. Of course if we follow this ridiculous trail of so-called works required for justification then we can say that we are justified as a result of breathing at church, or getting dressed to go to church, etc. These kinds of doctrines needlessly frustrate the simplicity of the gospel.

Justification is through having your sins forgiven, period. You get your sins forgiven by having faith in God's word in your heart (Romans 10:10) that the blood of Christ does that for you. That's the simple gospel. Adding these 'you gotta do this, and you gotta do that to be justified' doctrines is garbage added on by man. All they do is create dissensions and factions and arguments.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul PLAINLY says righteousness (justification) results from believing, with the heart:
"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

Not from inviting a pastor to your home, not from being alive while the sermon is preached, not from listening with your ears, but from believing. Let's stop destroying the simplicity of the gospel with these inane requirements added to faith for justification.