The Process Of Justification

[Brother Mike]

No, because he doesn't believe. Not because he didn't do something. His lack of doing is simply the evidence of his unbelief.


The power of justification is in the believing, not in what we do. That's the point, and the only point. Of course if we follow this ridiculous trail of so-called works required for justification then we can say that we are justified as a result of breathing at church, or getting dressed to go to church, etc. These kinds of doctrines needlessly frustrate the simplicity of the gospel.

Justification is through having your sins forgiven, period. You get your sins forgiven by having faith in God's word in your heart (Romans 10:10) that the blood of Christ does that for you. That's the simple gospel. Adding these 'you gotta do this, and you gotta do that to be justified' doctrines is garbage added on by man. All they do is create dissensions and factions and arguments.

You quoted half a verse. Faith is counted for righteousness. You said that part.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:10 KJV)

According to this scripture you gave. What part gives the Salvation?

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
(Mar 11:23 KJV)

When does the mountain go into the ocean? Just believing it will in your heart, or the part where you spoke according to what you believe?

I gave you the scripture you gave, and I gave another witness. It's time to adjust some theology, right?

It seems this so called ridiculous trail is actually important and I gave two scriptures, even the one you gave.

 

[JLB]

The power of justification is in the believing, not in what we do. That's the point, and the only point.

6 But the righteousness of faith [justification] speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” ...

The message of the righteousness of faith works when it's in your heart and in your mouth.

Faith must have the corresponding act of the obedience of faith, or your faith is dead and will not produce the dive result it was intended to produce.

In the case of Romans 10, Salvation is the intended result of the word being in your heart and in your mouth... that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

I've explained that several times to him, to no avail.

If you look at all the the obedient things Cornelius did to receive the Gospel in his household, it's really awesome.

And they said, “Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you.” Acts 10:22

Cornelius was a man who feared God, prayed and gave to the poor, which indicated he had already turned to God.

All he needed was to hear about Christ Jesus very similar to the disciples of John in Acts 19.

That's why those who heard the story said...

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:18


Reminds me of another Centurion -

5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”

7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed.9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed,“Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! Matthew 8:5-10

I do my best to look for correction in what I believe. I don't mind saying I did not see it that way or perfectly.
Faith without works is dead. You can't erase that scripture, and it applies to anything that requires faith.
Notice you can still have faith, still believe. That alone won't save you though or change anything.
Mike.

 

[reba]

not necessarily direct at the last poster OK you guys this has been a long and good discussion lets leave it that way ..

It s getting personal lets not close the thread

 

[JLB]

Paul PLAINLY says righteousness (justification) results from believing, with the heart:
"for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

Not from inviting a pastor to your home, not from being alive while the sermon is preached, not from listening with your ears, but from believing. Let's stop destroying the simplicity of the gospel with these inane requirements added to faith for justification.

Sorry Brother.

You don't get to take half of the message and think that half a verse of scripture produces what Paul plainly qualified as the whole truth about the righteousness of faith.

But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:6-9


No place in the bible is there that justifies your position here in this matter, especially Genesis 15.

After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!” 4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:1-6

Abraham being discouraged about not having an heir, was led outside his tent and told to look up at the stars...

Even this act of obedience, in response to hearing God, showed that he believed God.


JLB

 

[reba]

closed for a while cool off

 

[reba]

[QUOTE="reba, post: 1143845, member: 1160"]It's getting personal lets not close the thread[/QUOTE]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do justified believers remain justified "despite the stain of [their] sins"

They remain justified if they continue to believe in Christ.

or is it necessary to have Jesus remove these sins in order to remain justified?

By virtue of them being, and remaining believers, those sins are removed by their belief in Christ.
It is when they stop believing in Christ that their sin is now counted against them because they have lost the justification that comes through the believing they once had. Paul says that here:

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

The effect of believing is lost when you stop believing. All believing up to that point has been in vain.

 

[dadof10]

They remain justified if they continue to believe in Christ.


By virtue of them being, and remaining believers, those sins are removed by their belief in Christ.
It is when they stop believing in Christ that their sin is now counted against them because they have lost the justification that comes through the believing they once had. Paul says that here:

"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

The effect of believing is lost when you stop believing. All believing up to that point has been in vain.

Jesus is talking to PETER, who is a believer. Jesus tells a BELIEVER that, unless he has his daily sin's removed, he will lose justification. He doesn't say "unless you lose your faith, evidenced by refusing to have daily sins removed...", He says "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." He must wash a believer, or he will lose justification. Please show me where Jesus says that unless he loses his faith, he has no part with Jesus. He is not talking about faith, but about removing sin from a believer. "Completely clean" in v. 10 can't possibly mean "always perfectly justified before God despite the stain of our sins", unless Jesus is contradicting Himself.

 

[MarkT]

Could it be possible that he was "tested" to see if he would REMAIN faithful, and therefore REMAIN justified? The fact that he was tested doesn't necessarily mean that God wanted to see if he was worthy of justification. It could be that He was testing His justified servant to see if he would obey and stay justified.

I think Abraham showed his faith in Gen. 12 and Gen. 15, but he wasn't proven until Gen. 22

That's what justified means. It means proven.

 

[dadof10]

I think Abraham showed his faith in Gen. 12 and Gen. 15, but he wasn't proven until Gen. 22

That's what justified means. It means proven.

Doesn't justified mean made or declared righteous by God? Is this what you mean by "proven"? If so, then justification is by what you do, not by faith alone.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus is talking to PETER, who is a believer. Jesus tells a BELIEVER that, unless he has his daily sin's removed, he will lose justification. He doesn't say "unless you lose your faith, evidenced by refusing to have daily sins removed...", He says "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." He must wash a believer, or he will lose justification. Please show me where Jesus says that unless he loses his faith, he has no part with Jesus. He is not talking about faith, but about removing sin from a believer. "Completely clean" in v. 10 can't possibly mean "always perfectly justified before God despite the stain of our sins", unless Jesus is contradicting Himself.

How are you not getting this?.
Having faith IS the washing of the feet. And this need to have your feet washed (by faith in Jesus) doesn't alter or affect the whole body bath you've already had. That's the single thing you are somehow missing. Dirty footed believers don't need to have their whole body washed again. They don't need to be re-justified. It is believers, not the unbelievers, who get their feet washed.....through their faith in Christ.

If a believer stops having faith that is when they don't get their feet washed and are in danger of being separated from Christ. So it is the feet of the unbeliever, who stops having faith, that don't get washed. The believer has his feet washed through his faith in Christ. He is in no danger whatsoever of losing the clean of his whole body and his place in Christ--his feet get washed because he has faith in the forgiveness of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Doesn't justified mean made or declared righteous by God?

That is one definition of 'justified'. That is the definition Paul is using when he says, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified" (Galatians 2:16 NASB).

The other definition of 'justified' is to be shown to be righteous. That is the definition James uses when he says, "a man is justified by works" (James 2:24 NASB).

This is what makes them not contradictory to each other.

 

[MarkT]

Doesn't justified mean made or declared righteous by God? Is this what you mean by "proven"? If so, then justification is by what you do, not by faith alone.

I think Abraham was justified in the end, because he did everything the LORD gave him to do. No one approves a workman until his work is done. The workman in our case was Jesus Christ. See also Pr. 8:30

I'd say the definition of righteous is blameless. A righteous man is blameless. For example, 'Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation'. Gen 6:9

 

[dadof10]

How are you not getting this?.

Because your interpretation of Jn. 13:8-10 bears no resemblance whatsoever to the actual words of Jesus. To do a proper exegesis, a person has to use the words in the text, not just substitute the word "faith" whenever something is said to effect justification, because "scripture teaches justification is by faith alone". Again, you are begging the question or assuming the conclusion. Case in point...

Having faith IS the washing of the feet.

I thought washing the feet was "removing daily sin", now it's "having faith"??? Sorry, you are moving the goal posts. Here is what you said previously.

"Peter doesn't need a whole bath all over again. He only needs his feet washed. The bath is justification. The washing of the feet is the stain of our daily sin that doesn't necessitate an entire re-washing (re-justification) of the believer."

The Process Of Justification

Old analogy:
Bath=Justification
Washing of feet=Stain of daily sin

New analogy:
Bath=Justification
Washing of feet=Having faith

Am I "getting it" now, or would you like to move the goalposts a little further?

Let's see how this new analogy plays out, just for fun...

And this need to have your feet washed (by faith in Jesus) doesn't alter or affect the whole body bath you've already had.

So, having faith "doesn't alter or affect the whole body bath you've already had"? Really? OK, let's try to score with these new goal posts. Now justification ("the whole body bath") is not "altered or effected" by whether a person has faith or not??? Are you listening to yourself? Maybe you could change the meaning of "the bath" to something else now...Sheesh, this is getting sad.

That's the single thing you are somehow missing.

Kinda hard to hit when it keeps moving...

Dirty footed believers don't need to have their whole body washed again.

Now we are back to the washing of feet being "stain of daily sins"? If not, please explain how a "dirty footed" person (a person who lacks faith) can be a "believer"? Remember, you changed the meaning of "washing of feet" to "having faith". A person whose feet remain dirty is a person who has no faith. You can't have it both ways. You are flailing...

They don't need to be re-justified. It is believers, not the unbelievers, who get their feet washed.....through their faith in Christ.

So, Christ is telling Peter, who already believes, that unless he is a believer, he will not be justified. Isn't that redundant? Peter was a believer. This is what you are "not getting". Jesus says to a believer that he needs to have faith? How can this possibly mean that Peter and the Apostles, who already believe, need to have faith? It doesn't make sense that Jesus would wash the feet (give faith) of people who already believe. Your interpretation would make sense if Jesus walked up to Judas and tried to wash his feet. He was the one without faith, not Peter.

If a believer stops having faith that is when they don't get their feet washed and are in danger of being separated from Christ.

Again, I thought that "Having faith IS the washing of the feet". You are still trying to have it both ways. How can a person "stop having faith" yet only be "in danger of being separated from Christ"? Wouldn't that rejection of Christ constitute actually being separated from Christ? It seems like when it suits your argument, "the dirt" switches back and forth between symbolizing "daily sins" and "lack of faith". Classic logical fallacy of Moving The Goalposts.

So it is the feet of the unbeliever, who stops having faith, that don't get washed. The believer has his feet washed through his faith in Christ. He is in no danger whatsoever of losing the clean of his whole body and his place in Christ--his feet get washed because he has faith in the forgiveness of God.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Since "washing of feet" no longer means "having daily sins removed", but instead means "having faith", then "you are clean" must mean "always perfectly justified before God despite whether you have faith or not." Unless of course, you want to just switch it back to "daily sins" again...But only until my next point, then back it goes to "faith". Why don't you just admit your mistake in using these verses to prove your "always perfectly justified before God" doctrine. Then maybe we could move on...

 

[dadof10]

That is one definition of 'justified'. That is the definition Paul is using when he says, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified" (Galatians 2:16 NASB).

The other definition of 'justified' is to be shown to be righteous. That is the definition James uses when he says, "a man is justified by works" (James 2:24 NASB).

This is what makes them not contradictory to each other.

Sorry. Not going off on yet another tangent. You still haven't explained where you get "commendable faith" from, nor have you even attempted an exegesis of Heb. 11:4-8, explaining how verses 4-7 describe a justifying faith, then, all of a sudden, without warning, the author switches to a "commendable faith", which isn't even Biblical, when talking about Abraham's faith in Gen. 12. Once you go down that road, we'll see about revisiting James 2.

 

[JLB]

I think Abraham showed his faith in Gen. 12 and Gen. 15, but he wasn't proven until Gen. 22

That's what justified means. It means proven.

Abraham was proven to be righteous when he obeyed in Genesis 12.

Abraham was proven to be righteous when he obeyed in Genesis 22.

It's when a person obeys, that they are proven to be righteous.

The proving is in the obedience, the obedience of faith.

Abraham was tested when called to offer up Issac, and having passed that test he was proven that he believed.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said,“In Isaac your seed shall be called,”19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense. Hebrews 11:17-19


Likewise it was proven that Abraham believed God that he would be given the land of promise, when he left his fathers house and the country where he was dwelling.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Jesus is talking to PETER, who is a believer. Jesus tells a BELIEVER that, unless he has his daily sin's removed, he will lose justification. .

Nobody becomes sinless, period. We don't get some daily "sinless" state by having sins removed.

Where do people come up with this stuff? No, no one is sinless. That never happened other than with God in Christ in the flesh, Himself.

Scripture tells us all that our own flesh is contrary to the Spirit and the Spirit is against the flesh precisely for this reason, because it's contrary.

Gal. 5:17

No one has the contrariness of their flesh removed.

 

[JLB]

Nobody becomes sinless,

Actually that is the definition of justified... made just as if you never sinned.

We are given His righteousness, and heaven which we didn't deserve.

He was given our unrighteousness, and hell in which He didn't deserve.


The only way we will be allowed into heaven is because we have been made sinless, not our bodies for which He condemned sin in the flesh, but our inner man.

If we have one sin, then we are guilty of all.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Actually that is the definition of justified... made just as if you never sinned.

There are no sinless christians, period. There are some schools of thought that describe the Justification as "imputed" but not yet fully complete, until we pass from our present corrupted by sin body into our Final Body, that of Christ.

We are given His righteousness, and heaven which we didn't deserve.

That doesn't apply to the flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit. Previously cited in Gal. 5:17

He was given our unrighteousness, and hell in which He didn't deserve.

Jesus in "hell" is a whole nother subject. And one that I don't buy into.

The only way we will be allowed into heaven is because we have been made sinless, not our bodies for which He condemned sin in the flesh, but our inner man.

Well, bravo for at least making that distinction. There is no justification available for the body. It is flesh and it is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. And the Spirit is likewise against the flesh.

Every believer bears, in their own flesh, the state of "contrariness." Just as Paul taught us. There is no way to justify that which is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. It won't and can not happen.

God is no respecter of any person exactly on this ground, because "all" bear the contrary state of the flesh. And that, because of indwelling sin.