The Process Of Justification

[Jethro Bodine]

It is an entire waste of time to try to remedy this fact, making them both the same.

You seem set on letting evil people walk away scott free with the redeemed on the Day of Judgment in the name of evil being that which is condemned in all people and not any one person who, saved or unsaved, embraces it. Your doctrine rationalizes sin and that is a very dangerous and deceitful business to be in.

 

[smaller]

You seem set on letting evil people walk away scott free with the redeemed on the Day of Judgment in the name of evil being that which is condemned in all people and not any one person who, saved or unsaved, embraces it. Your doctrine rationalizes sin and that is a very dangerous and deceitful business to be in.

I think we know well enough by now that my 'accounting' of scripture 'accounts' as scripture does, entailing the workings of the enemy "in the flesh." There is no such theological animal as a believer without internal temptations of the tempter.

So, spread your judgment net there and we might actually agree. And fwiw, I fully expect that the tempter will not agree with the proposal of scripture.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think we know well enough by now that my 'accounting' of scripture 'accounts' as scripture does, entailing the workings of the enemy "in the flesh." There is no such theological animal as a believer without internal temptations of the tempter.

So, spread your judgment net there and we might actually agree. And fwiw, I fully expect that the tempter will not agree with the proposal of scripture.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

You're ignoring that your whole conclusion is that believers can not attain to the fourth type of soil. That is a lie.

 

[smaller]

You're ignoring that your whole conclusion is that believers can not attain to the fourth type of soil. That is a lie.

I read parables as Jesus directed them to be read, including all the parties, which are,

Gods Word
Mankind
The devil
as Jesus directed to read "all" parables in Mark 4:13

Most believers tend to eliminate the devil. If we see we have sin, and sin is of the devil, and are "sins" of lusts and temptations in the flesh, it's not hard to figure out Jethro.

Let's just honestly face a detested fact here and see that it is our own sins that are "of the devil." 1 John 3:8. There is no way that party will ever be justified or righteous. It won't and can't happen. And that "operation" of temptations and lusts transpire "in the ground" of our flesh. Therefore the flesh is vile, just as Paul notes in Phil. 3:21.

There is no "making" that which is "vile" justified or righteous by any measures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I read parables as Jesus directed them to be read, including all the parties, which are,

Gods Word
Mankind
The devil

Most believers tend to eliminate the devil. If we see we have sin, and sin is of the devil, and are "sins" of lusts and temptations in the flesh, it's not hard to figure out Jethro.

Let's just honestly face a detested fact here and see that it is our own sins that are "of the devil." 1 John 3:8. There is no way that party will ever be justified or righteous. It won't and can't happen. And that "operation" of temptations and lusts transpire "in the ground" of our flesh. Therefore the flesh is vile, just as Paul notes in Phil. 3:21.

There is no "making" that which is "vile" justified or righteous by any measures.

We get it.......no one can attain to the fourth kind of soil. We don't know why Jesus even brought it up.

 

[smaller]

We get it.......no one can attain to the fourth kind of soil. We don't know why Jesus even brought it up.

Jesus advised us of the parties involved in "all" parables. You just think the tempter is eliminated from the equations when that never happened, either in Word "OR" in reality.

Where the Word is sown, the tempter, Satan, does enter the heart. Mark 4:15.

Since we all have sin and sin is of the devil, even in "good ground" that party did not depart from the equations. It's only unfortunate when believers try to kid themselves about their own flesh and it's subjection to lusts and temptations by the tempter. The math to me is clear as a bell, and I see no need to lie about it in order to justify or make righteous the tempter. Ain't gonna happen.

In the course of this parable of the seed in Mark 4:15, it's the same person, at each stage of their growth, culminating in the final sight, which is good/HONEST ground.

 

[Kidron]

Ok, then he wasn't justified in Gen. 15:6 because he had already been justified in Gen. 12, and you can't be justified twice? Do I have your view right, now?

-

Not at all.

What i'm saying..... is that if Paul in Galatians says,...."the hearing of Faith".
Then in Romans, he says...."Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God".
Then in Titus he says......"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. "
Then in Ephesians he says.... For it is by grace that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through FAITH. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

What im saying is that all of these scriptures work in HARMONY< as its all the SAME PRINCIPAL, but its being evolved, explained, even tho its all the same exact doctrine of "Grace through faith"..
So, this is...... to "study to show thyself approved", as that is how the Bible teaches....you have to compare scripture with scripture to get the total understanding-comprehension > LIGHT of Revelation.

So, Gen 12 is to Gen 15, <> what apples are to apple sauce.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You just think the tempter is eliminated from the equations when that never happened, either in Word "OR" in reality.

No, I'm pretty sure that's only what you think I and others think.

It's only unfortunate when believers try to kid themselves about their own flesh and it's subjection to lusts and temptations by the tempter.

We all know we are subject to temptations. Not subject to them as in we HAVE to cave into them as you seem to be suggesting as just a normal and accepted part of being a Christian, but only subject to them in their attempts to make us cave in. That's the only thing we HAVE to be subject to. We do not HAVE to be subject to caving into them as you are suggesting.

I see no need to lie about it in order to justify or make righteous the tempter. Ain't gonna happen.

Good grief! What church do you attend that is teaching you this stuff????
We Christians know full well the tempter is overcome by faith and brought into subjection, not transformed by faith. And when that happens the believer is then free to perform the righteousness the evil one attempted to suppress. Some Christians even mature to the fourth type of soil.

 

[dadof10]

I agree that he is speaking corporately to the church at Corinth.

What about the "someone" in verse 1, 2, 3, 4...13 etc.? Do you think he's talking about him at all?

But how can the church be unleavened as a whole if no one individual within in the church is unleavened?

As I said, our concepts of "Church" are different. The Church, founded by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit can't err on matters of faith and morals (Acts 15) even though individual members are sinners and do err in their personal life. In that sense Paul can call "the corporate Church" even sinless or perfect, because it's guided by the Holy Spirit. He only called it "unleavened", though (whatever that means) and you still haven't even addressed how you draw "legally justified" from "unleavened".

So the analogy is entirely applicable to the individual believer.

No, sorry. This is only applicable to the "someone" throughout the chapter. That one metaphorical verse can't be taken in isolation.

"I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed." (1Co 5:5-7 NASB)

The Corinthians are obviously "boasting" about this man, and Paul is reprimanding them for it. They have accepted him to some extent, instead of "removing the wicked man" (v.13). He is telling the Corinthians to remove the leaven (the man) from the "lump" (the Church), then it (the corporate Church) will be "unleavened". This is the only context of the "leaven/lump" analogy. It has nothing whatsoever to do with personal sin of anyone but the "man".

Passover represents being saved through the offering of the Passover sacrifice, who is Christ. And the Feast of Unleavened Bread immediately following Passover (Leviticus 23:5-6) represents the removal of leaven (sin) from the lump of ground grain consecrated to the Lord each of us now are--personally and corporately speaking.

The point being, There is no reason to become the consecrated lump of dough over and over again. What is necessary is that the once consecrated lump of dough show itself over and over and over again to be freed from the pollution of leaven.

The point is, as it says throughout the chapter, and in conclusion, "remove the wicked man from among yourselves" (v.13)

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe justification is a process, not a one time event

Consider Eph. 4:11-13 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Note the word "fullness." (Gr: πλήρωμα plērōma: "completeness") That same word is used in Colossians to describe the person of Christ.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

All of God, in all His glory, dwells in the man Jesus of Nazareth. That is the "fullness" which is the goal of the Christians walk.

Jesus was the firstborn of a new race of people; human beings in whom God dwells. He was God in flesh. Christians are flesh indwelt by God. We are members of a race of God-bearing people.

Our goal is to be so submitted to God within us so that, when people meet us, they fall in love with Jesus.

Those who achieve that level of sanctification are few and far between. (In the Eastern Church we use the word "deification": to become God's restored image and likeness.) It is, indeed, a process and not a "once for all" event.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe justification is a process, not a one time event

Consider Eph. 4:11-13 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Note the word "fullness." (Gr: πλήρωμα plērōma: "completeness") That same word is used in Colossians to describe the person of Christ.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

All of God, in all His glory, dwells in the man Jesus of Nazareth. That is the "fullness" which is the goal of the Christians walk.

Jesus was the firstborn of a new race of people; human beings in whom God dwells. He was God in flesh. Christians are flesh indwelt by God. We are members of a race of God-bearing people.

Our goal is to be so submitted to God within us so that, when people meet us, they fall in love with Jesus.

Those who achieve that level of sanctification are few and far between. (In the Eastern Church we use the word "deification": to become God's restored image and likeness.) It is, indeed, a process and not a "once for all" event.

iakov the fool

 

[Sinthesis]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought that's what you meant by this:
"For all the good done, no matter how many aspects of their life were justified and considered righteous, there would still be some sin nature"

It seemed like you were saying that some aspects of people's lives are "justified and considered righteous", wiping out the "sin nature", but that in the other aspects, not touched by justification and righteousness, the sin nature would remain. Do you mean that when some aspects are "justified", the sin nature is minimized?

Part of the consequences of our sin nature might be forgiven, covered up, but only for a specific instance of righteousness. However we can't cover up every failing in our lives so that our actions could ever warrant eternal life. Only God can do that.

So then Abraham (and we, by extension), can be justified more than once in the same day, ostensibly millions of times throughout our lives?

I don't believe the justification or righteousness attributed to Abraham because of what he did was salvic.

Does "justified" mean God declaring our actions are correct in light of our motivations, or am I misunderstanding you again?

Perhaps it means overlooking our immediate failings because they are intended to, and in fact do, serve a purpose other/greater than ourselves.

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't believe the justification or righteousness attributed to Abraham because of what he did was salvic.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Belief is an act of will.

Jas 2:21-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Acting upon one's belief is "living faith." ( Jas 2:20 ... faith without works is dead)

Pardon me if that is a tangent. I just popped in and may have missed something.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[dadof10]

My point was, how can you automatically assign the sinning Corinthian chap to that of an unbeliever?

I never said he was an unbeliever. It seems from the text, that he's a believer, living in sin, and his lifestyle being accepted by the corporate Corinthian Church. That's why I said this Scripture was poignant for today. How many sinful lifestyles are we accepting within our Churches, both Catholic and Protestant?

Isn't it possible that he's an actual believer who, like you and me sometimes, has the leaven of sin working it's way through his legally unleavened body and needs God's fatherly discipline to drive it out?

Yes, I think that's exactly what it is.

You see, your doctrine only adds up if you confine the leaven in the lump to unbelievers, but simple observation (and a little honesty) shows us all believers have the leaven of sin overtaking them at one time or another.

You are misunderstanding me, and it seems (I guess) like dishonesty.

How can the following not be a LEGAL declaration of righteousness and an actual behavioral righteousness in a person as you claim?

"14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NASB)

We've talked about this verse in context earlier. The question was not about this verse, but about where you get "legally justified" from "unleavened" in 1Cor. 5. That's what you aren't addressing.

How can one be perfect, yet be in the process of being made holy? That is impossible in your doctrine, but that is exactly what the Bible says is happening, and exactly what my doctrine says is happening. We are made perfect in God's sight, legally speaking, by the Passover sacrifice of Christ, then we move toward behavioral perfection by driving out, and keeping out, the leaven of sin in our lives.

If I check the NASB, which you usually use, the verse is translated:

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:14 NASB)

I think you put the wrong version in your quote above. Since there is a question about tense here, I checked BLB and the tense for the word "hagiazō" is present, which means (I think) it can go either way, "are" like "are already", or "are being" like "in the process of". It helps to look at context.

"Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:11-14 NASB)

I seems as though the author is giving a glimpse into Heaven, Jesus "sitting down at the right hand of God" and "waiting from that time onward until his enemies be made a footstool for his feet". Then he says "For..." tying these three verses together. That would make "those who are sanctified" people who are already in Heaven. The point being that Jesus' one sacrifice did what all the Jewish sacrifices couldn't, make people perfectly sanctified. So, it would seem more likely from the context that the "sanctified" are those already in Heaven and already sanctified. That makes the most sense to me, anyway.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Our goal is to be so submitted to God within us so that, when people meet us, they fall in love with Jesus.

Those who achieve that level of sanctification are few and far between. (In the Eastern Church we use the word "deification": to become God's restored image and likeness.) It is, indeed, a process and not a "once for all" event.

But that's not the justification Paul is referring to when he says, "to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB). He is speaking of the justification of the ungodly--the making of an ungodly person into a legally righteous person.

You are referring to James's justification--the justification of the righteous. That's what happens over and over in the process of sanctification--that is, our becoming more and more set apart and like Jesus in our behaviors after we have already been made legally righteous in God's sight. Through the process of sanctification, the increasing frequency and quality of our new behaviors justify us as to showing that we do indeed have the righteousness of Christ through faith in him. Those behaviors do not make us righteous. They show us to already be righteous through the blood of Christ.

 

[dadof10]

The same way a person who's already had a bath only needs to wash his feet. The bath represents your one-time born again experience:

He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 3:5-6 NASB).

The person who has had 'the washing of rebirth and renewal' doesn't need to do that all over again. Hes' already clean:

"10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean." (John 13:10)

He only needs to keep his feet clean. The feet represents the believers walk.
In time, a persistent decision to not wash one's feet will in fact result in losing your place in Christ. Not because your feet aren't clean, but because they are unclean because of unbelief. The branches that are removed from the tree are removed on the basis of unbelief, not works (Romans 11:20 NASB)



ONLY if that unrepentant sin represents a trampling and rejection of, and loss of faith in, the blood of Christ. The sin is only the evidence of no longer having the faith that justifies. Sin in and of itself does not rob you of your one-time 'washing and renewal by the Holy Spirit', that is, your justification. The unbelief that motivated the sin does. And it's impossible to become re-justified after losing your one-time washing and justification. And I always let God tell any one person whether or not they have lost their justification. That's something only the individual and God can know for sure. I'm not in the business of throwing around that kind of serious condemnation among people who struggle with their belief in God.

This is pretty cut and dry. This verse is not at all saying what you want it to. You can bring up others in a attempt to explain it, but your exegesis just falls flat. Here is the verse:

"8 Peter said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” (John 13:8-10 NASB italics in orig.)

And here is your explanation:

"Peter doesn't need a whole bath all over again. He only needs his feet washed. The bath is justification. The washing of the feet is the stain of our daily sin that doesn't necessitate an entire re-washing (re-justification) of the believer. Note, Jesus did distinguish between the truly washed, but stained, Apostles, and the Apostle that was stained, but was not washed, Judas."

Bath=Justification
Feet Washing= Removal of daily sin

Peter was "washed" in a "bath" so, is "justified". This justified-for-all-time believer tells Jesus that he doesn't want Him to remove his "stain of daily sin" (wash his feet). Jesus tells this justified-for-all-time believer that unless he allows Jesus to remove his "stain of daily sin", he "has no part with Him". Now, unless you believe that a person can "have no part" with Jesus and still remain justified, He just told Peter that he can lose his justification unless he has his daily sins removed by Jesus. The way you are interpreting this verse, it actually backs up my view.

You are right, in the sense that the "feet washing" represents removal of daily sin, but the "bath" is baptism, which is initial justification. Jesus is telling Peter that he has already been baptized, so doesn't have to repeat it every time he sins, but only go to Jesus for forgiveness. If he does not, he will "have no part" with Jesus, meaning obviously, that his justification could be lost, or at least the state of his soul could be negatively effected.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We've talked about this verse in context earlier. The question was not about this verse, but about where you get "legally justified" from "unleavened" in 1Cor. 5. That's what you aren't addressing.

I know that you agree that the leaven is figurative of sin. So, obviously, an unleavened lump of dough is one that has no sin in it. That would be, in regard to sin, a perfect lump of dough, as I'm sure you would agree. And you and I both agree that the lump of dough made up of all of us believers is full of leaven (that's that honesty thing I was talking about), yet Paul said the sacrifice of Jesus has made us perfect....for all time:

"14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. " (Hebrews 10:14 NASB bold mine)

So, there you have it: A lump of dough that is perfect, but not in actual reality, but legally, on paper, such that we are no longer subject to the punishment of imperfect people. Legally we are not guilty in the Judge's sight, as if we were unleavened. Practically speaking, we're guilty as heck, full of leaven. What is changing is the practical, outward righteousness of our behavior, while our legal right standing with God is already 100% completed--one time, for all time, as Paul points out in the above scripture. That doesn't need to be accomplished again. What is in the process of development is the outward righteousness of our behavior. That's called the process of sanctification, not the process of justification--though it's true that every time we do something righteous we are justifying ourselves as in showing (not making) ourselves to be righteous. The showing of oneself to be righteous is also called 'being justified'. And that not well known fact has caused a lot of confusion in properly understanding this subject.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If I check the NASB, which you usually use, the verse is translated:

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:14 NASB)

I think you put the wrong version in your quote above. Since there is a question about tense here, I checked BLB and the tense for the word "hagiazō" is present, which means (I think) it can go either way, "are" like "are already", or "are being" like "in the process of". It helps to look at context.

Sanctification is, both, a one time setting apart of something base or unclean unto a holy purpose, as in being declared set apart for that purpose; and it is also the process of becoming more and more 'set apart' in actual use and practice.

Regardless of what you may or may not think sanctified means, Paul makes it clear that those who are, or are being, sanctified (both are true) have already been perfected for all time by the one offering of Jesus (Hebrews 10:14). It isn't necessary to be made perfect all over again if it was done for all time the first time it was done, as Paul said it was.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Here he's speaking directly to the whole lump--the real church--and they have leaven in them. So much so he calls these brethren (not the unbelievers among them) infants in Christ (not infants not in Christ) :

"1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?" (1 Corinthians
Don't forget that Jesus called Judas "friend" at the point of his betrayal (Matt. 26: 47-50). Jesus knew he was the "Son of Satan", so why did He call him "friend"? Jesus still called him friend, giving him a chance to repent. For to the end, Christ gives all the same free will to choose, that they be without excuse. All men are sinners, but not all men are wicked, but even a wicked man can repent and be saved. (Ezek. 33: 7-20) In Hebrews Chapter 6, Paul is speaking to a Hebrew congregation that was trying to mix Judaism with Grace. His warning was to all that would listen. He was not sure if all were following that Judaism, but the warning was to all (Heb. 6:1-12)

 

[smaller]

We Christians know full well the tempter is overcome by faith and brought into subjection, not transformed by faith.

More obviously then trying to heap justification and righteousness upon the entirety of any believer is a waste of time, as there are two parties involved.

I thank God for Paul's explanations.

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

Any honest ground will eventually be led to that same conclusion. And at that point they'll also see the complete futility of trying to justify or make righteous, the other party, as it can't be done. This is the basis of all christian dispute. Usually some party/sect thinks they are more right or righteous than another.

When it comes to this subject ALL have equal VILE ground that can't be justified or made righteous.

The best we have been given into our hands is to RULE over indwelling sin, NOT deny that we have sin, which makes us "not in Truth" by lying, or by saying that "our sin" is NOT in fact of the devil, 1 John 3:8, which again, makes "us" into liars. That merely turns us into lying hypocrites and we lose our present standing over SIN in that sight by the NON fruit of lying hypocrisy. It was this exact problem that ruined the priests of the O.T. unto whom Jesus heaped WOE.

WHO did Jesus heap woe unto? The devils in the flesh of those men that reigned over the minds and hearts of those men who had lost their standing by lying hypocrisy.

There are bitter Words to swallow if we are led into dicipleship of Christ. This intentionally keeps out demonic imposters. Demonic imposters in the flesh can NOT speak truthfully. It's impossible.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Are we to justify and make righteous, that which we hate? Uh, no. It's pointless.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

It's no picnic coming to understand this matter. The tempter, the devil, will lock down a believers mind, to keep them in lying hypocrisy, as his pawns.

Psalm 119:163
I hate and abhor lying:

The "enemy" we are to overcome is in our own FLESH.

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I'd suggest that rather than these utterly futile attempts to make and see the entirety of ourselves as justified and righteous, the opposite track is advised. Paul bore in his own flesh, an entity that IS DOOMED to eternal damnation. There is accurate sight:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Proper hatred will arrive, on cue.