The Process Of Justification

[smaller]

Honestly, I think it's time to address the mods about this continual hijacking of threads with this ridiculously misguided doctrine of yours. Sorry bro. You're really provoking us to anger with this tearing down of the power of the Christian faith.

I don't want to see this thread get closed over this derailment, so I'm not touching it again. I hope everyone else will leave it alone too, so this thread stays open. Thank you.

I think we've pinpointed that the contrary flesh will never accept the proposals that it's contrary, that's for sure.

Gal. 5:17 nails the flesh dead in it's tracks as CONTRARY.

And every flesh walker will scream to no end that it's NOT the case for them.

 

[reba]

lets not get off track guys

 

[JLB]

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I see Paul talking about people who aren't what they used to be, contrary to your doctrine that says we will always be the thieves and adulterers and drunks, etc. that we once were. What a hopeless gospel you preach.

Amen and thank God!

At some point, if we are walking in the light as He is in the light, we are indeed cleansed of our unrighteousness that is brought about by sin.

Otherwise we don't believe the Gospel.

We don't believe His blood takes away sin.

That is the frightening part of smaller's message, as his doctrine seems to lull the believer into being "content" to remain in a sinful state which of course separates us from God.


JLB

 

[smaller]

What is the process that justifies the contrary flesh?

The answer is, there is no such thing presented in the Bible.

This however is presented. It's called the final reality of Faith in Christ:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And it is to this END, that I have set my Hope in faith, that HE IS ABLE to perform this, by His Power to subdue all things unto Himself.

He is Able.

I'm not. Nor is anyone else, Able.

 

[smaller]

That is the frightening part of smaller smaller's message, as his doctrine seems to lull the believer into being "content" to remain in a sinful state which of course separates us from God.

JLB

The flesh does not like to hear what is said about it.

The sinless state doesn't exist for the flesh. But it certainly LIKES to pretend and to claim that is the case.

It is extremely deceptive, if not put in it's TRUTHFUL place.

 

[JLB]

I think we've pinpointed that the contrary flesh will never accept the proposals that it's contrary, that's for sure.

That why we are told to walk after the Spirit.

Walking after the Spirit, nullifies the desires of the flesh and keeps them in the state of death, having been crucified.

The crucified flesh life is rendered powerless to corrupt us as we live and walk in the Spirit.

Thus walking with God in perfect sinless harmony as man was designed to do.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The flesh does not like to hear what is said about it.

Yes so true!

The flesh is dead, and can not hear or function because it has been rendered such by the Spirit.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, having faith "doesn't alter or affect the whole body bath you've already had"? Really?

Yes, really. The person who continues in his faith in Christ is the one who has his feet washed by that faith.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9 NASB)

It is the person who has faith in Christ that confesses his sin and gets it washed away, not the person who doesn't have faith. And we know John is not talking about the washing of the whole body. Christ himself said that is not necessary for the dirty footed believer (John 13:10).

 

[smaller]

That why we are told to walk after the Spirit.

Does contrary flesh walk according to the Spirit? Uh, no. It never has and never will. It is in fact, just as Paul stated it is. Contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

I might think that walking in the Spirit means being able to see this fact.

Walking after the Spirit, nullifies the desires of the flesh and keeps them in the state of death, having been crucified.

The contrary flesh does what it does and does so in contrary to the Spirit fashions. This is what the Spirit teaches us. That it's contrary. The Spirit doesn't teach that it will be obedient nor does the Spirit teach that our flesh isn't vile and contrary because that is NOT true.

The Spirit is TRUTHFUL in this matter.

The "Treasure" of the Spirit that we hold, we hold in an earthen vessel that is CONTRARY to it.

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The crucified flesh life is rendered powerless to corrupt us as we live and walk in the Spirit.

IF you are claiming that the flesh is not contrary, The Spirit says otherwise.

Thus walking with God in perfect sinless harmony as man was designed to do.

Yeah, well, I doubt very much that anyone on this earth other than God Himself in the flesh has anything other than contrary to the Spirit flesh because THAT is exactly what we are told it is.

This sinless state for contrary flesh (Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness, Obadiah) simply doesn't exist. It's the imagination of the flesh and the contrariness of it that makes such claims.

IF Paul described the body as VILE, then VILE it is.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now we are back to the washing of feet being "stain of daily sins"? If not, please explain how a "dirty footed" person (a person who lacks faith) can be a "believer"? Remember, you changed the meaning of "washing of feet" to "having faith". A person whose feet remain dirty is a person who has no faith. You can't have it both ways. You are flailing...

No, you are the one flailing. You're grasping for these absurd arguments to frustrate the obvious fact that the person who has dirty feet and submits to Christ for the washing of those dirty feet never loses or effects the completeness of his whole body clean that he has before, during, and after that foot washing (John 13:10).

Jesus said it is if Peter, who is completely clean and does not need a bath, does NOT come to him for the washing of feet that he has no part in him (John 13:8). Having dirty feet has no effect on the fact that he is completely clean and does not need a whole bath. Refusing to submit to the foot washing is what will affect that.

 

[smaller]

Yes so true!

The flesh is dead, and can not hear or function because it has been rendered such by the Spirit.

JLB

I openly admit that I use exactly this measure to tell who is telling the truth and who is pulling somebodies theological leg.

Paul himself landed in an exactly opposite position of WHERE everyone who tries to justify their vile contrary flesh landed.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.

I followed Paul directly into that same scripturally positionally TRUTHFUL fact.

I am a sinner and Jesus came to save sinners. (Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness, Obadiah) Paul dived HEADLONG into TRUTHFULNESS.

 

[JLB]

I openly admit that I use exactly this measure to tell who is telling the truth and who is pulling somebodies theological leg.

Paul himself landed in an exactly opposite position of WHERE everyone who tries to justify their vile contrary flesh landed.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.

I followed Paul directly into that same scripturally positionally TRUTHFUL fact.

I am a sinner and Jesus came to save sinners. You'd think the Gospel was never heard in hearing all the claims of being non-sinners. Paul dived HEADLONG into TRUTHFULNESS.

Those who sin are of the devil.

Those who walk in the light, believe that the blood of Jesus cleansed them of all unrighteous.

Those who don't believe this remain in their sins.


JLB

 

[Obadiah]

Closed for review.

 

[Obadiah]

Re-opening the thread now.

Be advised that any further personal insults or rude comments will result in not just editing of the text, but will include official warnings and infraction points. Remember, if you accumulate 3 current infraction points you will be automatically suspended from our forum for 30 days. Please don't let this happen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

please explain how a "dirty footed" person (a person who lacks faith) can be a "believer"?

No, you misunderstand. The dirty footed person is not, by virtue of his dirty feet, the one who lacks faith. The dirty footed person is the believer who is washed in the blood and is completely clean (John 13:10), but who has the stain of his daily sins. The one who lacks faith is the one who doesn't submit to the washing away of those daily sins. His lack of faith to seek the washing of his daily sins is what puts him in jeopardy of losing the cleanliness of his whole body in Christ, not the fact that he has dirty feet.

How can a person "stop having faith" yet only be "in danger of being separated from Christ"?

Because God is gracious. The person may one day heed God's calling the unrepentant 'believer' back to himself. God decides when the wayward 'believer' who stops seeking the cleansing of daily sin is beyond hope. Not you and me.

So, Christ is telling Peter, who already believes, that unless he is a believer, he will not be justified. Isn't that redundant? Peter was a believer. This is what you are "not getting". Jesus says to a believer that he needs to have faith?

No, Christ is essentially telling Peter he has to continue in faith--the faith that got his whole body clean. It is the failure to continue in the faith that justifies, as signified in the unwillingness to submit to the cleansing of daily sin, that will eventually result in the loss of his whole body cleaning that he has.

Your interpretation would make sense if Jesus walked up to Judas and tried to wash his feet. He was the one without faith, not Peter.

Judas is the one who is not completely clean in his whole body to begin with ("but not all of you"-vs.10). He can't continue in a faith and total body cleansing that he doesn't even have in the first place.

"the dirt" switches back and forth between symbolizing "daily sins" and "lack of faith". Classic logical fallacy of Moving The Goalposts.

No, you misunderstand. The dirty feet symbolizes the daily sin of the "completely clean" (vs. 10) believer. The lack of faith is symbolized in not submitting to the washing of those dirty feet, not in the having of dirty feet. The goal posts are exactly where they were in the beginning.

Since "washing of feet" no longer means "having daily sins removed", but instead means "having faith", then "you are clean" must mean "always perfectly justified before God despite whether you have faith or not."

The washing of the feet of the completely clean person does mean having your daily struggle with sin cleansed (1 John 1:9). The person who stops having faith in Christ is the one who stops seeking that cleansing of the feet in their daily walk with Christ. The person who continues in his faith in Christ is the one who continues to seek the cleansing of their feet in their daily walk with Christ. The seeking, or the not seeking being what determines if that person continues in Christ or not, not the fact that the feet have been dirtied.

Why don't you just admit your mistake in using these verses to prove your "always perfectly justified before God" doctrine. Then maybe we could move on...

Well, I've shown you that actually what happened is you did not understand the argument properly. And now that I've explained it thoroughly for you to understand you can now explain how the dirty footed believer does lose his completely clean status just by virtue of his feet getting dirty. I said that, from the text, we see that a loss of completely clean status (losing one's place in Christ) can only happen if the dirty footed person refuses to submit to the cleaning of his feet, not because his feet got dirty in the first place as your doctrine says but which clearly contradicts what Jesus says.

You still haven't explained where you get "commendable faith" from, nor have you even attempted an exegesis of Heb. 11:4-8, explaining how verses 4-7 describe a justifying faith, then, all of a sudden, without warning, the author switches to a "commendable faith", which isn't even Biblical, when talking about Abraham's faith in Gen. 12.

I did, but you rejected it. You rejecting it doesn't mean I didn't explain it.

"Women received back their dead by resurrection" (Hebrews 11:35 NASB italics in orig.)

Is this the faith that makes a person righteous (justified) in God's sight, or is it impossible that it can simply be faith that is approved (commended) by God?

 

[MarkT]

Abraham was proven to be righteous when he obeyed in Genesis 12.

Abraham was proven to be righteous when he obeyed in Genesis 22.

It's when a person obeys, that they are proven to be righteous.

The proving is in the obedience, the obedience of faith.

Abraham was tested when called to offer up Issac, and having passed that test he was proven that he believed.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said,“In Isaac your seed shall be called,”19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense. Hebrews 11:17-19


Likewise it was proven that Abraham believed God that he would be given the land of promise, when he left his fathers house and the country where he was dwelling.


JLB

Proven to whom? The LORD said he would make him the father of a great nation, and God caused Abraham to leave his father's house, as Abraham said. Gen. 20:13 referring back to Gen. 12 So what was proven? What is proven is no one can resist the will of God.

What I'm saying is Abraham was tested and proven in Gen. 22.

 

[MarkT]

What do I mean by justified? I take it to mean he passed the test.

 

[JLB]

Proven to whom? The LORD said he would make him the father of a great nation, and God caused Abraham to leave his father's house, as Abraham said. Gen. 20:13 referring back to Gen. 12 So what was proven? What is proven is no one can resist the will of God.

What I'm saying is Abraham was tested and proven in Gen. 22.

Yes, I agree.

What I'm saying is Abraham was proven in Genesis 12, when left his fathers house to a country not knowing where he was going.

Without this step of righteous obedience there would be no promise land or son.

He was proven to be righteous.

He was proven to be obedient.

It was proven Abraham trusted God.

This was first proven in Genesis 12, when Abraham obeyed.

He also proved that God would justify the Gentiles by faith when he obeyed the Gospel that was preached to him.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed. Galatians 3:8


JLB

 

[dadof10]

No, you misunderstand. The dirty footed person is not, by virtue of his dirty feet, the one who lacks faith. The dirty footed person is the believer who is washed in the blood and is completely clean (John 13:10), but who has the stain of his daily sins. The one who lacks faith is the one who doesn't submit to the washing away of those daily sins. His lack of faith to seek the washing of his daily sins is what puts him in jeopardy of losing the cleanliness of his whole body in Christ, not the fact that he has dirty feet.


Because God is gracious. The person may one day heed God's calling the unrepentant 'believer' back to himself. God decides when the wayward 'believer' who stops seeking the cleansing of daily sin is beyond hope. Not you and me.


No, Christ is essentially telling Peter he has to continue in faith--the faith that got his whole body clean. It is the failure to continue in the faith that justifies, as signified in the unwillingness to submit to the cleansing of daily sin, that will eventually result in the loss of his whole body cleaning that he has.


Judas is the one who is not completely clean in his whole body to begin with ("but not all of you"-vs.10). He can't continue in a faith and total body cleansing that he doesn't even have in the first place.


No, you misunderstand. The dirty feet symbolizes the daily sin of the "completely clean" (vs. 10) believer. The lack of faith is symbolized in not submitting to the washing of those dirty feet, not in the having of dirty feet. The goal posts are exactly where they were in the beginning.


The washing of the feet of the completely clean person does mean having your daily struggle with sin cleansed (1 John 1:9). The person who stops having faith in Christ is the one who stops seeking that cleansing of the feet in their daily walk with Christ. The person who continues in his faith in Christ is the one who continues to seek the cleansing of their feet in their daily walk with Christ. The seeking, or the not seeking being what determines if that person continues in Christ or not, not the fact that the feet have been dirtied.


Well, I've shown you that actually what happened is you did not understand the argument properly. And now that I've explained it thoroughly for you to understand you can now explain how the dirty footed believer does lose his completely clean status just by virtue of his feet getting dirty. I said that, from the text, we see that a loss of completely clean status (losing one's place in Christ) can only happen if the dirty footed person refuses to submit to the cleaning of his feet, not because his feet got dirty in the first place as your doctrine says but which clearly contradicts what Jesus says.


I did, but you rejected it. You rejecting it doesn't mean I didn't explain it.

"Women received back their dead by resurrection" (Hebrews 11:35 NASB italics in orig.)

Is this the faith that makes a person righteous (justified) in God's sight, or is it impossible that it can simply be faith that is approved (commended) by God?

Sigh...Again, of course it's by faith we come to Jesus, but we must have our daily sins removed or we "have no part with" Christ, which means loss of justification. You are forcing "faith" into verses that don't even deal with faith. You have Jesus saying that believers must have "daily sins removed" or lose justification, then in the next breath, saying but you are totally justified, despite daily sins. No matter how you slice it, it's contradictory. This is not fun anymore...

 

[MarkT]

Yes, I agree.

What I'm saying is Abraham was proven in Genesis 12, when left his fathers house to a country not knowing where he was going.

Without this step of righteous obedience there would be no promise land or son.

He was proven to be righteous.

He was proven to be obedient.

It was proven Abraham trusted God.

This was first proven in Genesis 12, when Abraham obeyed.

He also proved that God would justify the Gentiles by faith when he obeyed the Gospel that was preached to him.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed. Galatians 3:8


JLB

Proven to you perhaps, but not to the LORD.

Abraham made the offering by which he was approved in Gen. 22 He was justified, meaning God approved him, when the LORD said, "Now I know"