The Rapture is wrong !

[Guest]

More than likely, our generation will die before the rapture. Therefore, we will rest in Sheol grave until Bema seat.

Are You ALIVE in Christ right at this moment Urk? The moment a believer physically dies we are face to face with the Lord and in Heaven.

Yes I'm alive in Christ. You have scripture for your statement? 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Notice it does not say 'and the alive in Christ rise first.' That's because after we die, we're not alive again until we meet with Christ at rapture.

 

[gr8grace]

More than likely, our generation will die before the rapture. Therefore, we will rest in Sheol grave until Bema seat.

Are You ALIVE in Christ right at this moment Urk? The moment a believer physically dies we are face to face with the Lord and in Heaven.

Yes I'm alive in Christ. You have scripture for your statement? 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Notice it does not say 'and the alive in Christ rise first.' That's because after we die, we're not alive again until we meet with Christ at rapture.

1 Thess 4:16 is speaking of the rapture, If we are still alive the dead will raise first. That is speaking of our resurrection bodies. We get physical resurrection bodies at the rapture. Those who have died before the rapture will get theirs first then those who are alive will get theirs. All in a twinkle of an eye though.

We have an interim body before the rapture in Heaven.

Resurrection means a person returns from the dead in a body that is incorruptible and never again dies. Anyone who dies during the Church Age has an interim body in heaven until the resurrection of the Church at the Rapture, 2 Cor 5:1-8. This resurrection life or newness in life that Paul desires to attain is found in Rom 6:4 "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

Paul tells us in 2 Cor 5:8, “We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be home (face to face) with the Lord.” Also, several Old Testament passages speak of death as sleep and Sheol as a condition of unconsciousness, but each time the passage refers to the body, not the soul.

Face to face with the Lord comes from a little Greek word in the original language that does not usually come out in our translations.

pros 4314 ---- ---- acc -- prep--- toward 12 ......It is a strengthened form of "in Front of" hence the face to face with the Lord.

 

[SeekHisFace]

I really don't believe in the pre-trib...but that does not matter...what really matters is that we all, individually, get right with the Lord, do the Father's will, strife to hear His voice, be holy because He is Holy, walk and be led of the Spirit---...seek Him and Love Him with all your heart, and love others.
Be a doer of what His Word says and what the Father's Spirit says.

Peace in Christ...

 

[Guest]

1 Thess 4:16 is speaking of the rapture, If we are still alive the dead will raise first. That is speaking of our resurrection bodies. We get physical resurrection bodies at the rapture. Those who have died before the rapture will get theirs first then those who are alive will get theirs. All in a twinkle of an eye though.

I agree with this, but the dead do not have interim bodies..thus being dead.

We have an interim body before the rapture in Heaven.

Resurrection means a person returns from the dead in a body that is incorruptible and never again dies. Anyone who dies during the Church Age has an interim body in heaven until the resurrection of the Church at the Rapture, 2 Cor 5:1-8. This resurrection life or newness in life that Paul desires to attain is found in Rom 6:4 "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

So I disagree with this. 2 Cor 5:1-8 is not talking about having interim bodies after we die, before rapture. No, it's speaking about living on this old earth, living inside the body of Christ. When scripture mentions tent here, their speaking about our decaying bodies that we live in on this old earth. If we do have interim bodies then why does it say we groan and long if we're already with the Lord right after we die inside our 'interim bodies'?? 2 Cor 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling. 2 Cor 5:6-7 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. Notice this says we are away from the Lord and we walk by faith, not by sight. These are instructions and things that are happening on this old earth, right now! We are away from the Lord. We haven't died yet, so we need to walk in faith and not by sight.

Paul tells us in 2 Cor 5:8, “We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be home (face to face) with the Lord.†Also, several Old Testament passages speak of death as sleep and Sheol as a condition of unconsciousness, but each time the passage refers to the body, not the soul.

Yes, but notice it says prefer. Who wouldn't prefer that?? We prefer that while living on this old earth. Everyone does! I noticed you also skipped over 2 Cor 5:6, where it says we know.

Also notice 2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Notice it says we have a building, a house that is eternal. He's talking about the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of us and our inheritance that is in heaven. Inheritance is in 2 Cor 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

 

[gr8grace]

1 Thess 4:16 is speaking of the rapture, If we are still alive the dead will raise first. That is speaking of our resurrection bodies. We get physical resurrection bodies at the rapture. Those who have died before the rapture will get theirs first then those who are alive will get theirs. All in a twinkle of an eye though.

I agree with this, but the dead do not have interim bodies..thus being dead.

We have an interim body before the rapture in Heaven.

Resurrection means a person returns from the dead in a body that is incorruptible and never again dies. Anyone who dies during the Church Age has an interim body in heaven until the resurrection of the Church at the Rapture, 2 Cor 5:1-8. This resurrection life or newness in life that Paul desires to attain is found in Rom 6:4 "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

So I disagree with this. 2 Cor 5:1-8 is not talking about having interim bodies after we die, before rapture. No, it's speaking about living on this old earth, living inside the body of Christ. When scripture mentions tent here, their speaking about our decaying bodies that we live in on this old earth. If we do have interim bodies then why does it say we groan and long if we're already with the Lord right after we die inside our 'interim bodies'?? 2 Cor 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling. 2 Cor 5:6-7 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. Notice this says we are away from the Lord and we walk by faith, not by sight. These are instructions and things that are happening on this old earth, right now! We are away from the Lord. We haven't died yet, so we need to walk in faith and not by sight.

Paul tells us in 2 Cor 5:8, “We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be home (face to face) with the Lord.” Also, several Old Testament passages speak of death as sleep and Sheol as a condition of unconsciousness, but each time the passage refers to the body, not the soul.

Yes, but notice it says prefer. Who wouldn't prefer that?? We prefer that while living on this old earth. Everyone does! I noticed you also skipped over 2 Cor 5:6, where it says we know.

Also notice 2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Notice it says we have a building, a house that is eternal. He's talking about the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of us and our inheritance that is in heaven. Inheritance is in 2 Cor 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Boy that is a mess urk. I don't have a chance at cleaning that up.

God Bless Urk, I am going to live in the Joy and assurance of Heaven at the moment of my Death.

 

[gr8grace]

Urk, my last post looks horrible. I meant it in the sense that I don't think I have the capability in this instance to explain myself and get my point across.

 

[Guest]

Boy that is a mess urk. I don't have a chance at cleaning that up.

Show me where I'm wrong. Humor me.

God Bless Urk, I am going to live in the Joy and assurance of Heaven at the moment of my Death.

Yes, and so will all who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. What's your point.

 

[gr8grace]

Boy that is a mess urk. I don't have a chance at cleaning that up.

Show me where I'm wrong. Humor me.

God Bless Urk, I am going to live in the Joy and assurance of Heaven at the moment of my Death.

Yes, and so will all who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. What's your point.

Urk forgive me but you have me confused. You said earlier that that we will be in the grave until the Bema seat. Now you are agreeing with me that we will be in Heaven at the moment of death.

You say that we live in Christs body. Then you say we groan in the tents that we are in? We groan while we are in Christs Body? This tent is Christs body? I might just be tired, but you seem to be all over the place.

you say we are in the Grave until the Bema seat. How many years have you been studying the Bema seat Judgement?

 

[Guest]

Boy that is a mess urk. I don't have a chance at cleaning that up.

Show me where I'm wrong. Humor me.

God Bless Urk, I am going to live in the Joy and assurance of Heaven at the moment of my Death.

Yes, and so will all who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. What's your point.

Urk forgive me but you have me confused. You said earlier that that we will be in the grave until the Bema seat. Now you are agreeing with me that we will be in Heaven at the moment of death.

You say that we live in Christs body. Then you say we groan in the tents that we are in? We groan while we are in Christs Body? This tent is Christs body? I might just be tired, but you seem to be all over the place.

you say we are in the Grave until the Bema seat. How many years have you been studying the Bema seat Judgement?

That's alright. Sleep on it and get back to me tomorrow. I believe the dead in Christ will be in the grave until Bema seat, yes.

 

[Eugene]

we will rest in Sheol grave until Bema seat.

If taken before the rapture representative of them of smyrna, I expect my bones to be in the grave. The judgment seat of Christ? Are we not being judged as to our walk in this present life as judgment begins at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17)? Will not our reward be with Him when He comes for us? (Revelation 22:12)

 

[Deborah13]

I really don't believe in the pre-trib...but that does not matter...what really matters is that we all, individually, get right with the Lord, do the Father's will, strife to hear His voice, be holy because He is Holy, walk and be led of the Spirit---...seek Him and Love Him with all your heart, and love others.
Be a doer of what His Word says and what the Father's Spirit says. Peace in Christ...

You speak the truth.

You don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, then you have studied this and come to a conclusion that you are satisfied with. I only recently have changed my view about this so I am still studying. These discussions help me sort things out. Others may be here for the same reason or similar ones. Have you ever encountered such an amazing book? Only the Lord could be the author. Written over centuries by many inspired men, amazing.

Blessing,

 

[jasoncran]

a Christian will NOT rest in sheol. that is for the sinners who didn't repent after the cross, [MENTION=93656]urk[/MENTION]. see my thread on what sheol is on the focus on scripture. it has either the paradise to and the torment and flames. but the lord says when we die will be with him. that is in statements of paul.

 

[Guest]

a Christian will NOT rest in sheol. that is for the sinners who didn't repent after the cross, [MENTION=93656]urk[/MENTION]. see my thread on what sheol is on the focus on scripture. it has either the paradise to and the torment and flames. but the lord says when we die will be with him. that is in statements of paul.

Scripture please, that states we will be with him right after we die and not at rapture.

 

[jasoncran]

" for to be absent in body is to be present with the lord"

no gap there.

you also have said that we suffer the same fate as the rich man in luke 16. that is well a part of sheol. that is for the worst of the worst.

moses didn't have a body, nor did Elijah and yet they were seen alive with jesus. a body is one aspect of the soul that is temporary and is replacable and well need it but we can be seen clothed with another type of body awaiting the resurrection.

 

[jasoncran]

for the record @urk . the rapture doctrine isn't as such but a resurrection. we aren't seen there taking to heaven but coming to the earth in a new body. jesus is coming where?

1 Corinthians 15

King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

notice that paul is saying how can you believe that theres no raising of the dead and believe that jesus rose?

now then

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

ok some will disagree and that is fine as I can see why. I don't believe that jesus is coming in a cloud to the earth literally. he will just appear as he ascended. he be seen from the air and descend to the earth. otherwise the verse here is wrong

"the meek shall inherit the earth" if that is the case. kinda hard to live on the earth when its well not your home and you are in heaven.

also the new city descends to the earth. and where is that show those in heaven? the earth that is why I say this.

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

where is it then if its heaven only?

 

[Guest]

I'm not gonna pretend I know what happens to us after death so....peace.

 

[jasoncran]

I'm not gonna pretend I know what happens to us after death so....peace.

ok and yet you have gone from someone who believed in hell, and now says sheol(a place or torment and and punishment for those that didnt live perfectly for god and also the worst of the worst) is the resting place of the saints. no rhyme or reason. Im not saying I got it all done either. God doesn't give us much. that is even in the bible, but soul sleep cant be as well hades being the translated word for sheol implies that both had souls that are aware of the place of torment and also beauty.nothing about either of them imply a "sleep" of no conscience.

 

[Guest]

I'm not gonna pretend I know what happens to us after death so....peace.

ok and yet you have gone from someone who believed in hell, and now says sheol(a place or torment and and punishment for those that didnt live perfectly for god and also the worst of the worst) is the resting place of the saints. no rhyme or reason. Im not saying I got it all done either. God doesn't give us much. that is even in the bible, but soul sleep cant be as well hades being the translated word for sheol implies that both had souls that are aware of the place of torment and also beauty.nothing about either of them imply a "sleep" of no conscience.

No, I meant sheol grave not sheol hell. I guess sheol grave doesn't exist, my bad. We will all be with Jesus in paradise after death to await the Bema seat. Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

 

[jasoncran]

I'm not gonna pretend I know what happens to us after death so....peace.

ok and yet you have gone from someone who believed in hell, and now says sheol(a place or torment and and punishment for those that didnt live perfectly for god and also the worst of the worst) is the resting place of the saints. no rhyme or reason. Im not saying I got it all done either. God doesn't give us much. that is even in the bible, but soul sleep cant be as well hades being the translated word for sheol implies that both had souls that are aware of the place of torment and also beauty.nothing about either of them imply a "sleep" of no conscience.

No, I meant sheol grave not sheol hell. I guess sheol grave doesn't exist, my bad. We will all be with Jesus in paradise after death to await the Bema seat. Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

that is off on the word grave. if you are going to quote what the Hebrew say about grave then post a verse clearly showing something on that with the word queber in the usage. as queber means grave.

if you notice he said today. hmm I think I will read up on gan eden and that"paridise" as that is found .today in jewry.it is resting place.not part of sheol

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] say for instance, there is scripture on the "grave" where christians rest. wouldn't that throw out the entire point you're trying to make, that we see Jesus directly after we die?