The Rapture: Pre-trib, mid or post... what's your opinion

[miamited]

I didn't say anything about an antichrist.
I said the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus in Mathew 24 takes place after the persecution of the saints.

And yes,Daniel states that take place in that order.

Hi Shilohsfoal

Ok. Do you believe that the event that Jesus is speaking of in the passage of Matthew, is the same event that Paul speaks of here?

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, do you believe that the 'tribulation spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24' is the same time period as the 'rebellion' that occurs in Paul's message here?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Shilohsfoal]

All of which is happening today .
And happened yesterday and last year and the year before that and the decade before that.
Christians are the most martyred faith on the planet as it stands today.
Making it sound so disconnected to me when I hear tribulationists say " well we won't be protected from persecution in the tribulation"?
Well duh, really?
You mean just like the hundreds of millions of Christians that have been slaughtered so far, starting with the Apostles ?
Makes no sense to me as a tribulationist qualifier in terms of what hundreds of millions of Christians have endured right up today and will endure tomorrow.
The country of Afghanistan is being wiped clean of it's Christian population as we speak , if it hasn't been already.
As is going on in many other countries.

Jhn 15:20
" The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you"

No,it's not happening today .
The man of sin has not sent his armed forces to Israel yet.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Pre-Trib

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Hi Shilohsfoal

Ok. Do you believe that the event that Jesus is speaking of in the passage of Matthew, is the same event that Paul speaks of here?

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, do you believe that the 'tribulation spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24' is the same time period as the 'rebellion' that occurs in Paul's message here?

God bless,
Ted

The great tribulation Jesus spoke of in Mathew 24 which takes place when the armed forces of the north place the abomination of desolation takes place 42 months after the man of sin visits the Israel government and gives the Israeli government an army.
The great tribulation Jesus spoke of is the same as Daniel spoke of here.

Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

 

[miamited]

The great tribulation Jesus spoke of in Mathew 24 which takes place when the armed forces of the north place the abomination of desolation takes place 42 months after the man of sin visits the Israel government and gives the Israeli government an army.
The great tribulation Jesus spoke of is the same as Daniel spoke of here.

Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

Right! I get all that! Got it! I hear ya! My question was whether or not you thought the two accounts were speaking of the same time? Is the passage that Paul wrote discussing the same period as the last days that Jesus spoke of? When Jesus said that as lightening flashes from the east unto the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man. We will see him standing on the clouds. Is that the same, 'we will see him in the clouds' that Paul is writing about 'coming in the clouds'?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Consecrated Life]

All of which is happening today .
And happened yesterday and last year and the year before that and the decade before that.
Christians are the most martyred faith on the planet as it stands today.
Making it sound so disconnected to me when I hear tribulationists say " well we won't be protected from persecution in the tribulation"?
Well duh, really?
You mean just like the hundreds of millions of Christians that have been slaughtered so far, starting with the Apostles ?
Makes no sense to me as a tribulationist qualifier in terms of what hundreds of millions of Christians have endured right up today and will endure tomorrow.
The country of Afghanistan is being wiped clean of it's Christian population as we speak , if it hasn't been already.
As is going on in many other countries.

Jhn 15:20
" The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you"

No,it's not happening today .
The man of sin has not sent his armed forces to Israel yet

Why are you changing the subject from what I wrote ?
the point I wrote specifically was that inherent in the tribulationist claim is that up until today Christians have been shielded from persecution, and will continue to be shielded from persecution until the tribulation.
Do you believe Christians are protected from persecution today ?

 

[JLB]

Pre-Trib

The Resurrection and Rapture occur at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15



The Resurrection of the dead in Christ happens first, then those who are alive and remain will be caught up (raptured) together with them.


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17






JLB

 

[RBDERRICK]

I believe that Jesus will Rapture his church to heaven before the tribulation.
Some believe that it will happen during the tribulation. Others believe that the church will have to go through the tribulation and then be raptured to Heaven at the end.

Where do you stand? Pre, Mid or Post?

The rapture is between the tribulation and wrath of man upon the righteous, and the tribulation and wrath of God upon the unrighteous.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

It's post persecution upon the righteous, and prepunishment upon the unrighteous.

The wicked will rejoice over the dead bodies of the saints, but only until they stand upon their feet and rise into the air to meet with the Lord. Then comes sudden plagues of destruction from the air upon them on earth, that hate God and His people.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Right! I get all that! Got it! I hear ya! My question was whether or not you thought the two accounts were speaking of the same time? Is the passage that Paul wrote discussing the same period as the last days that Jesus spoke of? When Jesus said that as lightening flashes from the east unto the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man. We will see him standing on the clouds. Is that the same, 'we will see him in the clouds' that Paul is writing about 'coming in the clouds'?

God bless,
Ted

It is the same time period.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

All of which is happening today .
And happened yesterday and last year and the year before that and the decade before that.
Christians are the most martyred faith on the planet as it stands today.
Making it sound so disconnected to me when I hear tribulationists say " well we won't be protected from persecution in the tribulation"?
Well duh, really?
You mean just like the hundreds of millions of Christians that have been slaughtered so far, starting with the Apostles ?
Makes no sense to me as a tribulationist qualifier in terms of what hundreds of millions of Christians have endured right up today and will endure tomorrow.
The country of Afghanistan is being wiped clean of it's Christian population as we speak , if it hasn't been already.
As is going on in many other countries.

Jhn 15:20
" The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you"

Why are you changing the subject from what I wrote ?
the point I wrote specifically was that inherent in the tribulationist claim is that up until today Christians have been shielded from persecution, and will continue to be shielded from persecution until the tribulation.
Do you believe Christians are protected from persecution today ?

I'm not changing the subject ,you are.
Jesus ,Daniel ,revelation all point to a certain tribulation in Israel that has not taken place yet.
You just claimed it is already taking place when it hasn't.
Can you name one Christian that was murderd in the country of Israel today?

 

[miamited]

It is the same time period.

Then what does Paul mean by telling us that 'that' day will not come until first the revelation of the lawless one?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Then what does Paul mean by telling us that 'that' day will not come until first the revelation of the lawless one?

God bless,
Ted

The man of sin is revealed before the persecution of the saints in Israel.

The man of sin is revealed to the saints here.

Daniel 11:32
He will flatter and win over those who have violated the covenant. But the people who know their God will be strong and will resist him.

The saints are persecuted here.

Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

The man of sin is not destroyed till 3.5 years later when Christ comes.The man of sin dies here in this verse.

Daniel 11:45
He will stop between the glorious holy mountain and the sea and will pitch his royal tents. But while he is there, his time will suddenly run out, and no one will help him.

Christ comes after the persecution of the saints during the great tribulation(wrath of God) upon the ungodly.

Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame

 

[Consecrated Life]

I'm not changing the subject ,you are.
Jesus ,Daniel ,revelation all point to a certain tribulation in Israel that has not taken place yet.
You just claimed it is already taking place when it hasn't.

You cannot quote me claiming that the biblical tribulation has taken place and for good reason.
I have not claimed anything other than the fact that as of 2023 Christians are the most martyred faith on the planet .
As of today more Christians have been murdered for their faith than any other faith.
Write that down.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You cannot quote me claiming that the biblical tribulation has taken place and for good reason.
I have not claimed anything other than the fact that as of 2023 Christians are the most martyred faith on the planet .
As of today more Christians have been murdered for their faith than any other faith.
Write that down.

See your post number 80.

I quoted Daniels writing concerning the tribulation in Israel .
You replied " all of which is happening today" which is false.
Here is the quote again.

Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

Your claim was all this is happening now which is incorrect. This does not take place till after the armed forces of the north have taken away the daily sacrifice and the man of sin is revealed to the Israeli saints in Daniel 11:32

Daniel 11:32
He will flatter and win over those who have violated the covenant. But the people who know their God will be strong and will resist him.

None of this has taken place yet.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

All of which is happening today .
And happened yesterday and last year and the year before that and the decade before that.
Christians are the most martyred faith on the planet as it stands today.
Making it sound so disconnected to me when I hear tribulationists say " well we won't be protected from persecution in the tribulation"?
Well duh, really?
You mean just like the hundreds of millions of Christians that have been slaughtered so far, starting with the Apostles ?
Makes no sense to me as a tribulationist qualifier in terms of what hundreds of millions of Christians have endured right up today and will endure tomorrow.
The country of Afghanistan is being wiped clean of it's Christian population as we speak , if it hasn't been already.
As is going on in many other countries.

Jhn 15:20
" The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you"

None of the verses I quoted are happening today.