The Rapture: Pre-trib, mid or post... what's your opinion

[Highway54]

I believe that Jesus will Rapture his church to heaven before the tribulation.
Some believe that it will happen during the tribulation. Others believe that the church will have to go through the tribulation and then be raptured to Heaven at the end.

Where do you stand? Pre, Mid or Post?

What is the meaning of Mat 24:22 to you sir? Do you still believe in the pre-trib rapture?

 

[BroRoyVa79]

I used to be pre-trib until I paid a little more attention to Matthew 24 and it's comparative passages in Luke and Mark.

All emphasis mine.

Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

Mark 13: 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. (ESV)

Luke 21: 25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” (ESV)

Compare the above with the first six trumpets (Revelation 8:1-21) and the first six bowls (Revelation 16:1-16) and then compare with the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl and you'll see that much of the language matches up.

You also have a bit of this in Luke 17 that seems to be talking of a sort of "rapture" of the wicked:
Luke 17: 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” (ESV)

Compare with:
Matthew 28: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. (ESV)

Compare with:
Revelation 19: 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

The passages recording Jesus speaking on the Second Coming summarize Revelation which is John's version of Jesus' lesson to the disciples about this on the Mount of Olives. Only, John got more details from the Lord. I always found myself confused by pre-trib theology when I scoured through the scriptures and understood there was no literal, direct, rapture statement, but there were concepts, but I couldn't even find those. I remember when I asked ministers about them and believers, at the time, who were wiser than I was in the scriptures, they'd explain it in a mystical, mysterious way, "Some things you have to read between the lines" or so to speak. To me, it just wasn't there. It was always saying something else. And it's still like that. Anytime I hear, read, watch, listen to a pre-trib theologian or studied brother or sister try to explain the pre-trib theory out of passages, I just don't see it. Everything says that the believers will be in tribulation and go through the final tribulation.

Now I consider myself somewhat between Pre-Wrath and Post-Trib.

 

[Rookie]

I see a lot of speculations, views and opinions, but no scripture to back up what all of you have said so far. Sorry to say, but Christ only returns one time as at that time He will send His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him as we meet Him in the air and will ever more be with Him.

Someone please give me the scriptures where it says Jesus returns twice as these below scriptures say nothing about a pre mid or post, but that Jesus comes on the last day after that of the seventh trumpet sounding. The first six trumpets of God's great wrath has no six year time frame as they are sounded consecutively one after the other with a beginning and an end between each one. The seventh trumpet sounds but has no numbering in days or years, but only to all the events of the 3 1/2 year reign of the son of perdition that will try and ware out the saints forcing them to take the mark of the beast or die a martyr's death. At the end of the 3 1/2 years then we will see the sign of Christ coming in the clouds as we are then caught up to meet Him in the air.

Matthew 24:29-31, 36-39; John 5:28-29; John 6:39-40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21

BTW, I was taught the pretrib rapture theory and use to believe in those teachings, but could not find it in scripture as the word of God says we will go through the tribulations in the end of days if we are still alive, but that we are not to fear that which must come first, but to stand in the greatest faith we will ever know and trusting in the Lord not fearing what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28. This will be the greatest time to bare witness and testify of Christ Jesus that prayerfully many will turn back to Him before the door of God's salvation is closed for ever when Jesus returns for His own.

Here is a good watch:

Basically it points to us as Christians being the two witnesses. There were 7 lamp stands representing 7 churches or the whole/complete church. And 5 were condemned but 2 were praised, those 2 representing less than 30% of us. And it does talk about how after the 2 witnesses are killed by the AntiChrist (who will wage war on them, and you can't quite rage war on just 2 people so the literal take is out) then resurrected (which are parelleled to years) and they will be raised to Christ. We are also the two olive trees which shows that one is the the tree of the Jews and one of them is of the Gentiles. My take on it fails in comparison to the actual content but feel free to dig in yourself

 

[for_his_glory]

Here is a good watch:

Basically it points to us as Christians being the two witnesses. There were 7 lamp stands representing 7 churches or the whole/complete church. And 5 were condemned but 2 were praised, those 2 representing less than 30% of us. And it does talk about how after the 2 witnesses are killed by the AntiChrist (who will wage war on them, and you can't quite rage war on just 2 people so the literal take is out) then resurrected (which are parelleled to years) and they will be raised to Christ. We are also the two olive trees which shows that one is the the tree of the Jews and one of them is of the Gentiles. My take on it fails in comparison to the actual content but feel free to dig in yourself

I do appreciate this, but I am looking for others to give scripture about their belief in pretrib, mid trib or post trib. The two witnesses needs to be another topic if you would like to start one as there are a few of them already in the End Time forum. If you decide to make a new thread tag me in so we can discuss it further.

 

[JLB]

Hi jbc092671

I'm with sometime after the tribulation begins and the lawless one revealed. Whether it's in the middle, I don't know.

God bless,
Ted

The lawless one being revealed marks the beginning of the great tribulation.

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:15,21


JLB

 

[Rookie]

I do appreciate this, but I am looking for others to give scripture about their belief in pretrib, mid trib or post trib. The two witnesses needs to be another topic if you would like to start one as there are a few of them already in the End Time forum. If you decide to make a new thread tag me in so we can discuss it further.

This does tie into pre, mid, and post trib

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I used to be pre-trib until I paid a little more attention to Matthew 24 and it's comparative passages in Luke and Mark.

All emphasis mine.

Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

Mark 13: 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. (ESV)

Luke 21: 25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” (ESV)

Compare the above with the first six trumpets (Revelation 8:1-21) and the first six bowls (Revelation 16:1-16) and then compare with the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl and you'll see that much of the language matches up.

You also have a bit of this in Luke 17 that seems to be talking of a sort of "rapture" of the wicked:
Luke 17: 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” (ESV)

Compare with:
Matthew 28: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. (ESV)

Compare with:
Revelation 19: 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

The passages recording Jesus speaking on the Second Coming summarize Revelation which is John's version of Jesus' lesson to the disciples about this on the Mount of Olives. Only, John got more details from the Lord. I always found myself confused by pre-trib theology when I scoured through the scriptures and understood there was no literal, direct, rapture statement, but there were concepts, but I couldn't even find those. I remember when I asked ministers about them and believers, at the time, who were wiser than I was in the scriptures, they'd explain it in a mystical, mysterious way, "Some things you have to read between the lines" or so to speak. To me, it just wasn't there. It was always saying something else. And it's still like that. Anytime I hear, read, watch, listen to a pre-trib theologian or studied brother or sister try to explain the pre-trib theory out of passages, I just don't see it. Everything says that the believers will be in tribulation and go through the final tribulation.

Now I consider myself somewhat between Pre-Wrath and Post-Trib.

Using no metaphors, the angel of the Lord, no less, described Jesus’ second coming in Acts 1:11…..no army…no horses….no sword…no bloodshed….and no signs. As he ascended, alone and in peace so He will come again. One can believe this or take out a black marker and cross that verse out in favor of the more exciting ones that describe an entirely different event.

 

[miamited]

The lawless one being revealed marks the beginning of the great tribulation.

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:15,21


JLB

That's correct. That's why my position is sometime after he is revealed.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JLB]

That's correct. That's why my position is sometime after he is revealed.

God bless,
Ted

Your statement seems to be sound.

 

[BroRoyVa79]

Using no metaphors, the angel of the Lord, no less, described Jesus’ second coming in Acts 1:11…..no army…no horses….no sword…no bloodshed….and no signs. As he ascended, alone and in peace so He will come again. One can believe this or take out a black marker and cross that verse out in favor of the more exciting ones that describe an entirely different event.

The context of the angel's statement is that Jesus went up into heaven on a could (Acts 1:9-10) not that you should void out all of the other passages talking about the Second Coming in favor of this passage. Compare them all, find the language that matches up and there you go. All three comparative passages of the Mount of Olives lecture contains language in which Jesus says he will return on or in the/a cloud/s and all we see him return on or in the/a cloud/s (Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27). That's what Acts 1:0-11 is referencing.

Plus you have passages talking about the state of the world at the end and that the world will be at war with believers and ready to war with God.

We should never develop our theology around one Bible verse unless that verse is the only verse in existence in the Bible talking about the thing it's talking about, which in my experience, is quite rare. There's always context.

 

[miamited]

Hi JLB

I am one who firmly believes that there will be a rapture of those who have placed their faith in Jesus before God releases His wrath upon the earth. But I am also one who understands that the 'days of great tribulation' and the 'wrath of God' are not synonymous phrases in the Scriptures. Each one is speaking of a different time and event.

The great tribulation comes upon the earth while we are all still living together upon it. The dead in Christ will still be in their graves and there will be righteous ones living out their lives on the earth. According to the Scriptures, it is my belief, that as we move further towards the 'last' day, believers will find themselves living with this tribulation of persecution and condemnation and hate that is brought on by the activities and practices and programs of this evil person who God's word describes as the greatest of Anti-christs. This person is the one that Paul wrote to the Thessalonians as the 'man of lawlessness' or 'man of sin'.

Now, if we tie this together with Daniel's prophecy that seems to speak of the same time and event, then he is going to make some kind of peace accord or treaty that will provide Israel some semblance of safety and they will continue to live as they do. But sometime shortly after that accord is made, the Scriptures seem to infer that it will be in the middle of a seven year period that starts the great tribulation, this person will renege on the deal and stop all of the Jewish sacrifices that they still make today. Some of this is speculation, but, I believe based on what Scripture does reveal to us about these coming times.

However, there are also some who believe that Daniel's writing speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and is, therefore, not tied with the time spoken of by Paul in Thessalonians 2. But, either way, we know that Paul did warn us that this 'lawless one' is going to be revealed before the end comes. That should be the last 'sign' that God gives His people and when we should most definitely look up, for our redemption draws nigh.

Personally, I don't think Daniel's writing can be all about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem.
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed".

I don't recall war being a big issue with the destruction in 70 A.D. And whether or not it was, it certainly didn't 'continue until the end'. I do, however, believe that the reference of 'destroy the city and the sanctuary' may well be referring to 70 A.D.

Then we read:
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’

I'm not seeing that Jesus made any covenant for one 'seven', if that seven is to be understood as being the same thing that the other 69 sevens are talking about. A week of years. Seven years. All of the 69 sevens are multiplied by 7 to equal 483 years, which is when Jesus, the Messiah, the Anointed one, was here. So, there really isn't any reason to think that this final seven isn't a week of years, also. So, where is there some reference in the Scriptures that Jesus made some covenant with anyone for only 7 years? Jesus' covenant is eternal! So, our promise of salvation can't be the covenant being spoken of here, if I'm understanding it correctly.



The 'wrath of God', on the other hand, comes when God stands from His throne and says "Enough!!!!! Son!! Go get your brothers and sisters!" Then we come to what is revealed to us in the Revelation of Jesus Christ chap. 14 vs. 14 on. The one looking like the Son of Man will swipe his scythe over the whole earth (metaphorically, of course) and the dead in Christ shall rise up out of their graves and as they go by the living in Christ, they will all be gathered together and raised up into the heavens to be forever with the Lord. He takes them out to safety and then God, the Father, releases His pent up fury and wrath as no one has ever seen before or ever will again, on all those that the second creature throws into the 'winepress of God's wrath'.

That is what is described in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as the bowl judgments and trumpet judgments. All of those who have trusted in Jesus will be safely with him as the Father pours out His long pent up wrath against those who have refused His mercy and chosen to live their lives apart from Him. That! Is the 'wrath of God', and that is what believers will never suffer. For we are not children of God's wrath.

This is the part that I believe the Left Behind series got wrong. There won't be a time of further salvation and teaching of the gospel once Jesus has taken his to be with him. As I understand it, the rapture is the final count of believers in the Lord.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Using no metaphors, the angel of the Lord, no less, described Jesus’ second coming in Acts 1:11…..no army…no horses….no sword…no bloodshed….and no signs. As he ascended, alone and in peace so He will come again. One can believe this or take out a black marker and cross that verse out in favor of the more exciting ones that describe an entirely different event.

HI Dorothy Mae

Yes, when Jesus returns to gather his, there won't be any army, horses or swords or bloodshed. Except for those who might be careening down the highway at 60mph when the Lord raises them up off the earth. That's for the visit that Jesus makes just before taking over the earth to establish his 1,000 year reign.

Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it! The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will stink; the mountains will be soaked with their blood. All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

BTW it's worth noticing that God doesn't seem to have carved out any special exception for the U.S. in this claim.

Jesus will return one final time with God's army to wipe out those remaining on the earth. The stars will disappear and we will then be ushered into the 1,000 years reign of Jesus upon the earth. This is when what is written becomes reality. That the blood will flow as high as a horse's bridle.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JLB]

I am one who firmly believes that there will be a rapture of those who have placed their faith in Jesus before God releases His wrath upon the earth.

Amen. So do I.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-9


However we must understand that Jesus Christ Himself is the agent of God’s wrath.


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:11-15


Here is the sequence of events, which includes the three main things that occur at the coming of the Lord; in order.


1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

​

And the dead in Christ will rise first.​

​

2. The Rapture of the Church.

​

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.​

At this point in the time line, the Church is high above the earth, in the clouds safely with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, the Lord pours out the wrath of God upon the antichrist and the enemies of God’s kingdom.


3. The destruction by the wrath of God upon the wicked including the antichrist.

For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:3

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8





JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

HI Dorothy Mae

Yes, when Jesus returns to gather his, there won't be any army, horses or swords or bloodshed. Except for those who might be careening down the highway at 60mph when the Lord raises them up off the earth. That's for the visit that Jesus makes just before taking over the earth to establish his 1,000 year reign.

Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it! The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will stink; the mountains will be soaked with their blood. All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

BTW it's worth noticing that God doesn't seem to have carved out any special exception for the U.S. in this claim.

Jesus will return one final time with God's army to wipe out those remaining on the earth.

You said above he doesn’t come with an army and now you say he does. Which is it, Ted?

The stars will disappear and we will then be ushered into the 1,000 years reign of Jesus upon the earth. This is when what is written becomes reality. That the blood will flow as high as a horse's bridle.

God bless,
Ted

Yes, I’m very familiar with that eschatology. There’s no scripture that lays that out. Why would he be angry at that coming generation more than any other? What terrible evil will they do worse than the generation that tortured and crucified the innocent Son of God? That generation actually said that the blood of Jesus should be required of them and their children. Jesus said the blood of all the prophets would be required of that generation, no other. They were lawless and evil murdering the servants of God.

The christians, btw, escaped not because He whisked them out but because they believed Jesus’ prophesy as given.

You can continue in your position, of course, but I thank you for responding.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, when Jesus returns to gather his, there won't be any army, horses or swords or bloodshed.

How do you explain Rev 19:11-21?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The context of the angel's statement is that Jesus went up into heaven on a could (Acts 1:9-10) not that you should void out all of the other passages talking about the Second Coming in favor of this passage. Compare them all, find the language that matches up and there you go. All three comparative passages of the Mount of Olives lecture contains language in which Jesus says he will return on or in the/a cloud/s and all we see him return on or in the/a cloud/s (Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27). That's what Acts 1:0-11 is referencing.

Plus you have passages talking about the state of the world at the end and that the world will be at war with believers and ready to war with God.

We should never develop our theology around one Bible verse unless that verse is the only verse in existence in the Bible talking about the thing it's talking about, which in my experience, is quite rare. There's always context.

The other scriptures you are referring to do not describe the second coming as they contradict that clear description by the angel.

They describe God’s judgement on Israel for crucifying his son using the often used metaphor of “coming in clouds” and “sun and moon” no longer shining and “stars falling.” Those passages exactly are used in the OT to describe the end of an evil people group.

But let me ask you, why do you think that future generation will be more evil than any previous one? What could they possibly do that is more evil than murdering horribly the innocent Son of God and all the prophets ever sent them? They murdered hundreds of servants of God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

miamited, tell her that Rev 19:11-21 is obviously a metaphor. Look at it carefully. No one literally draws blood by employing a book. The sword is the Word of God. That does not draw blood although it might “slay” or overcome a man.

 

[for_his_glory]

This does tie into pre, mid, and post trib

First I do not have the time to sit and listen to an hour video and was only asking for scripture support as in what everyone here believes. Do you have scripture to support what it is you believe when the catching up of the saints will be?

 

[for_his_glory]

miamited, tell her that Rev 19:11-21 is obviously a metaphor. Look at it carefully. No one literally draws blood by employing a book. The sword is the Word of God. That does not draw blood although it might “slay” or overcome a man.

Like I said, you have your beliefs and I have mine and this is only in response to what miamited said about their being no army, horses or bloodshed and then turning around say there will be as I wanted his response to that scripture.

 

[BroRoyVa79]

The other scriptures you are referring to do not describe the second coming as they contradict that clear description by the angel.

They describe God’s judgement on Israel for crucifying his son using the often used metaphor of “coming in clouds” and “sun and moon” no longer shining and “stars falling.” Those passages exactly are used in the OT to describe the end of an evil people group.

The context for Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are as so:

Matthew 24: 3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (ESV)​

​

Luke 21: 5 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6 “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” 7 And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?” (ESV)​

​

Mark 13: 3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?” 5 And Jesus began to say to them, “See that no one leads you astray. (ESV)​

Overall, the whole context comes from the previous chapters where Jesus, as usual, is battling with the religious leaders and exposing how they corrupted the law, etc. Matthew ends this confrontation with a lament over Jerusalem. Yet, when comparing all three, you can't ignore Matthew 24:3's "the sign of your coming and of the end of the age" and while Luke 21 and Mark 13 don't put that line in their handling of the Mount of Olives lecture, it is the context when you get down to Luke 21:25-28 and Mark 13:24-27. You have to remember, despite our translations creating sectionals, chapters, verses, paragraphs, sentence breaks, etc. This isn't in the original text and this is recording one whole speech that's attached to the question the disciples ask him at the beginning and, yes, while the, at that time upcoming destruction of Jerusalem is included in the speech, it goes further beyond that event in history to events in the future.

The problem with limiting the Mount of Olives lecture only to the events of 70AD is that Jesus includes in the sequence of events a collection of things that did not happen in 70AD, a collection of things that have happened over the ages, but the key is that he says that the tribulation he's talking about will be such a tribulation for believers that has not been seen since the creation of the universe until now (for the disciples then) and will never be seen again. If everything that happened in 70AD and with Nero, etc. is what Jesus was talking about with the Mount of Olives, and none of that was supposed to be ever seen again, why have we seen consistent persecution of believers in some way and similar ways long after the Romans did what they did to the Jews? And Jews have been exiled from countries since then all the way up to the middle ages for various, sometimes very silly reasons.

I don't limit the celestial signs to just metaphors. Seems to be an obvious sign of which God is providing the world, but specifically believers, a way for them to be able to tell "this is absolutely it." Matthew 24:29-31, Luke 21:25-28, and Mark 13: 24-27 all state that these celestial and earth shaking signs are to mark the Second coming of Jesus. Comparing this with Revelation, it all adds up.

I like how one brother puts it, and so as not to steal credit, it's Dr. Phil Fernandes, he says it this way about eschatology and I summarize, not an exact quote, "It's vague enough for every generation to think they're end it, but specific enough for the generation of the tribulation to know they're in it."

But let me ask you, why do you think that future generation will be more evil than any previous one? What could they possibly do that is more evil than murdering horribly the innocent Son of God and all the prophets ever sent them? They murdered hundreds of servants of God.

Well that was foretold in prophesy and had to happen to provide reconciliation to the world for those that would receive it through Jesus' sacrifice.

What could the world or a particular generation do that's possibly more evil? Well, in this sense, I'll quote this passage and then comment:

Matthew 18: 1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.​

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5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (ESV)​

So, I'd say the "more evil" thing a generation can do is what we've been doing. We as in a generation, society, culture at large, etc. And yes, the we can and does include compromised, corrupt, theologies and "Christianity." We've been leading people astray, removing the validity of the Bible, watering down the message, corrupting it, diminishing it's integrity and power in favor of a variety of things that lead people into deception and rob them of their potential reconciliation and eternity with God.

What could be "more evil" in the sense of having an eternal, unchangeable, fixed, permanent repercussion for people ?

Deceiving people into an eternity without God on their side because they've become His enemy and an eternity separated from him.

Jesus died, came back to life, and is now at the right hand of God. Those who had a hand in that act and didn't repent likely already came to terms with their mistake and will have to further answer for that in the end just like everyone else.

At least those who had a hand in it, saw the error of their ways, or even those who doubted and hated him (his brother James, for example) had the opportunity to figure out they were wrong, right it, and got themselves on the right path.