The rapture

[Brother Mike]

Why do you think the church is called the Bride of Christ anyway?

What scripture is that Edward that makes the body of Jesus a female body?

We see the love of Christ as love you wife as Christ loved the Church. We see the new City called the Bride of Christ. Paul makes a reference to it once but it was a comparison to a Husband and wife relationship.

The bride of (The anointed- Christ) appears nowhere in the bible.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Guess what the Angel did not show John............ "The Church"

The bride is told to be ready, but are we not already the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus? Ready for what?

Jesus nor Paul ever referred to His body as female or a bride.

Every mention or comparison was mentioned "AS" not "IS"

The Ten virgins were guest at the wedding per custom, not wives.

John considered himself the "Friend of the bridegroom" not the bride.

Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Even John said Adorned "AS" a bride concerning the city.

Where do you come up with this stuff Edward? Help me out here.............. Wedding, or Marriage supper is no indication the body of Christ is female or a bride.

We are told exactly what the bride is.

I don't get it.

The other stuff you

The marriage supper is not on earth. The rapture is modeled after a traditional ancient Jewish wedding. The groom does not come to the Brides house and marry her there. He comes and takes her away.

The Ketubah (Betrothal, committment, covenant, payment) is first. This was the crucifixion. He paid the price for the Bride. At this point she is set aside, sanctified, committed, but not married yet. (Isaiah 61:10, Judges 14:10-11, Jeremiah 2:32, Isaiah 49:18, Psalm 45:8-15)

After that, the Bridegroom departs to His Fathers house to prepare a room addition, while she prepares for His imminent return. The Bridegroom is Absent at this point and they are not married yet. She does not know when He will return. When He does return, there is a surprise gathering (usually at night), typically preceded by a shout. The Bride goes out to meet the Bridegroom and they leave to be married. (Jeremiah 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, Psalm 45:8-15, Matthew 25:1-13)

The Huppah. The wedding. The Bide and Bridegroom are escorted away to be married and to be alone together for the first time. (Alone, not in the midst of a bunch of rabble-rousers like on earth!).

Now this is great stuff here, thank you for this info!!! Awesome.............

Not sure why you lost it there at the end though, but I copied the first half down as it's pretty in depth.

 

[n2thelight]

I have a question for you post-tribbers. Jesus comes one more time, there's one resurrection after the great tribulation,armageddon, Marriage supper on earth, 1000 year reign, then judgment day, I understand what you're saying as to how it happens. Ok...supposing that's what is true (being open minded here), Explain this to me...in this scripture I post...who is being talked about where I have bolded it? Who are these people and where did they come from?

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[d] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

See my post #90

 

[JLB]

The marriage supper is not on earth. The rapture is modeled after a traditional ancient Jewish wedding. The groom does not come to the Brides house and marry her there. He comes and takes her away.

The Ketubah (Betrothal, committment, covenant, payment) is first. This was the crucifixion. He paid the price for the Bride. At this point she is set aside, sanctified, committed, but not married yet. (Isaiah 61:10, Judges 14:10-11, Jeremiah 2:32, Isaiah 49:18, Psalm 45:8-15)

After that, the Bridegroom departs to His Fathers house to prepare a room addition, while she prepares for His imminent return. The Bridegroom is Absent at this point and they are not married yet. She does not know when He will return. When He does return, there is a surprise gathering (usually at night), typically preceded by a shout. The Bride goes out to meet the Bridegroom and they leave to be married. (Jeremiah 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, Psalm 45:8-15, Matthew 25:1-13)

The Huppah. The wedding. The Bide and Bridegroom are escorted away to be married and to be alone together for the first time. (Alone, not in the midst of a bunch of rabble-rousers like on earth!).

They emerge together having been married and consummating the Marriage to go to the seven day Marriage Supper. (Judges 14:12, Matthew 9:15, 22:11-14, John 2:1)

Why do you think the church is called the Bride of Christ anyway?

The covenant was established. 1 Corinthians 11:25
Purchase Price. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Bride set apart. Ephesians 5:25-27, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 6:11, Hebrews 10:10, 13:12
Reminded of the covenant: 1 Corinthians 11:25-26
Bridegroom left for the Fathers House: John 14:1-3
Escort to accompany Him upon His return to Gather His Bride: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Please show the scriptures where Jesus comes from heaven and then makes a U Turn and goes back to heaven, secretly where no one sees Him.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

That's what I get for posting when tired. Sorry brother. Yes, we are not Christs "bride" but the relationship is similar 'as' like you said. We are subjective to Him, He is our spiritual leader, and He will treat us as a Husband treats His Wife. (I should have put more "as's" in, lol.)

No problem Edward, I have heard that before, but mostly from Pentecostal churches. The first part was just awesome and even if you believe your a bride.......(cough.... cough....) no issues. The union of husband and wife, being one flesh is used though, I just had a hard time finding any scripture saying we are the bride.

I thought you might have pulled a wizard trick and shown me something I had not seen. So I am always on the lookout to change my views also, just in case because if the Word says it, I believe it and that settles it.

Blessings!!!! and thank you for clearing that up. I guess you won't be needing that Wedding dress after all.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

I have a question for you post-tribbers. Jesus comes one more time, there's one resurrection after the great tribulation,armageddon, Marriage supper on earth, 1000 year reign, then judgment day, I understand what you're saying as to how it happens. Ok...supposing that's what is true (being open minded here), Explain this to me...in this scripture I post...who is being talked about where I have bolded it? Who are these people and where did they come from?

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[d] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

... God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

People that have died, [fallen asleep] and gone to heaven. These come back with Jesus to earth for the marriage supper of the Lamb.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Unless you are going to try and convince us that the nations Jesus intends to rule are on Mars, then Jesus, according to the word of the Lord, is heading to earth to do just that, which means the marriage supper is on earth.

Revelation 19:14;

"The armies of heaven were following him riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean".

Don't you agree this is the church?
How do we become part of the armies of heaven unless we are taken up to him?
And don't you agree this takes place at the end of the tribulation period?
Is God going to take us into his army before the marriage supper of the Lamb?

Rather than trying to make your point, try answering these questions.

 

[JLB]

Unless you are going to try and convince us that the nations Jesus intends to rule are on Mars, then Jesus, according to the word of the Lord, is heading to earth to do just that, which means the marriage supper is on earth.

Revelation 19:14;

"The armies of heaven were following him riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean".

Don't you agree this is the church?
How do we become part of the armies of heaven unless we are taken up to him?
And don't you agree this takes place at the end of the tribulation period?
Is God going to take us into his army before the marriage supper of the Lamb?

Rather than trying to make your point, try answering these questions.

Brother, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 gives us the answer.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

The armies that follow Him got there, because they died and went to heaven, just like 1 Thessalonians 4:14 teaches us.

This event is Christ Coming with the Church after the tribulation.

as it is written -

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

........... is modeled after a traditional ancient Jewish wedding. The groom does not come to the Brides house and marry her there. He comes and takes her away.

Excellent observation Edward. In the context of the marriage illustration we must keep in mind the Jewish traditions the audience to whom Jesus spoke was familiar with. The bridegroom would take his bride away, they would consumate the marriage, and would come to the wedding feast together as husband and wife.

If my understanding of the above is accurate then there are some things we'd do well to consider. The 1st thing is that there is perhaps a distinction between the bride and those invited to the wedding feast. This could mean that Jesus was to return to take his bride and at a later time enter into the wedding feast along with his bride to join the invited guests there. This distinction indicates that there is a difference between the relationship to Jesus that the bride has as compared with the guests.

 

[reba]

A maybe silly question..... Does any one here think /believe there is to be a dinner as in a meal ?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

A maybe silly question..... Does any one here think /believe there is to be a dinner as in a meal ?

WHAT!

And I was looking forward to that meal in heaven.

You just burst my baloon, like a Santa Claus type of thing!

 

[reba]

:christmas

 

[reba]

I ain't washing the dishes

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I ain't washing the dishes

I'll wash the dishes Reba.
You relax in your easy chair and smoke a cigar.

 

[Sinthesis]

The problem with connecting these verses and calling the person 'The Antichrist" is that the Bible doesn't do that. If we look at Daniel we do not see an end of the world picture depicted. We see a picture about ancient Israel's later days. These days were most likely either referencing the time of Antichus Epiphanes IV or the time of Jesus. In Matthew the writer explicedly speaks of the last days of the Jerusalem Temple that Herod had rebuilt. In both Thesalonians and Revelation there is an imminance in the tone of the writers. John in Rev 1:19 talks about things that are to come to pass shortly.

For many believers the following, the work, the preaching must in some way end with a final judgment. There is a rushed feeling in John and Paul's Writings that believers must prepare and get things right. "The Antichrist" is very clear by Johns writings a spirit that had pervaded the area and was effect people as we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. To say that it was just "A" man would mean mean making connections that are simple not there as John is the only one to flag these types of spirits and their operations.

So, while there was a imminence in the tone of the writers, certainly a "Stay Ready, Serve the Lord and all is well." There are other passages of scriptures I personally would have issue with in comparison to write off a end of the World, God judges.............. Happy ever after ending.

The scriptures that would cause me to shy from a "Already done, already occurred" position have been discussed by JLB and a few others, myself included in many other threads. While we are told these things must come to pass shortly, I hear the echo of the Lord and what the Lord considers his timing of things. Short to the Lord does not mean in our lifetime or even several lifetimes thereafter. It denotes a start of things which all things wrap up.

In the last days God has sent his son to speak to us.........

Well, that was about 2K years ago, so I can't take the position that more is not to come. Peter said things do not continue as they always have, and since the Lord Jesus they have.

Aren't we as believers included as them in the above?

Yes we are, but you did not understand a thing when I explained the scripture to you. One more time......... Jesus said to His father, that his 12 are not of this world, the World hated me and will hate them, because they are not of this World (Not belonging here on earth) I am not asking you to take them out of the World but keep the from evil.

Our hope in Christ is not that we avoid a physical death, but that we may as believers serve His purposes in the world as strangers to it, but protected from it's evil through His gift of spiritual life.

Your making stuff up here.............. Keep them in the World!!! that is physical protection like the Word Salvation and saved mean. If something evil kills you here then you are removed from the world. There is nothing else for you under the sun.

Also one scripture where any apostle died in a gruesome way. Just one.

I already told you by the scripture you brought up that it best you address other folks. Same old stuff and worse you twist it around to some spiritual protection saying that most of the apostles died a gruesome death.

I have a scripture for you.

Heb_11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Our hope in Christ is not that we avoid a physical death...................

Luk_10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

What does nothing mean to you?

Isa_54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

What does no weapon shall prosper mean to you?

All that must just spiritual........... In the land of clouds right?

Where is your faith?

2Ti_4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

Who has to be ready to go?

Enough..........

Your scripture where just one apostle's death is recorded and how gruesome it was. We will go from there when you produce that. You will get my attention when that is produced as I sure can't find it myself.

Mike.

Jhn 21:18 - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Jhn 21:19 - This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
​

The martyrdoms of the apostles glorified God. Their service to Christ even unto their deaths furthered the spread of the Gospel. Their deaths were a witness to others as to the certainty the apostles had in Jesus' promise of resurrection after the death of their physical bodies.

Mat 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

It is a mistake to think our reward is merely physical safety.

 

[Brother Mike]

The martyrdoms of the apostles glorified God. Their service to Christ even unto their deaths furthered the spread of the Gospel. Their deaths were a witness to others as to the certainty the apostles had in Jesus' promise of resurrection after the death of their physical bodies.

I said one scripture to back your statement about a recorded "Gruesome" death of an apostle. You said most of the apostles and you give me the scripture about Peter which I expected but how did Peter die? Was it Gruesome? Just one that did die, yet you said most.

Then you give a scripture about hell, which apostle went to hell? Or was Hell just something we are glad to avoid?

Stick to the Word, stop making things up. If you want my attention, then speak the Word only otherwise you have no credibility. You can talk to the rest of the folks here, don't address me until you snap out of it.

One scripture about Peter, No scripture about any gruesome death to back up your statement, No scripture describing how Peter died, all made up and just not good enough.

One reason I like Truth Over Tradition. His Doctrine is things I don't agree with, but He never says anything outside of what the scripture actually says, that is someone that takes the Word seriously, agree with him or not.

Mike.

 

[reba]

Some things happened that were not recorded in Scripture.... Some folks dont believe the the deaths of the martyrs ... or what happened in the Roman Coliseum ....some dont believe the Holocaust happened

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus in Matthew 13 said the wheat and tares would grow together until the “end of the world†and then would be separated. According to this dual coming rapture theory, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world.
The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end.

And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, John 6:40 “…and I will raise him up at the last day.†No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Paul declares the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the “same time†the dead in Christ are raised. He says, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.â€

Did you note that Jesus called this resurrection the “last day?†But how could it be the “last day†if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world?

Are there two last days?

 

[n2thelight]

Those believing in the secret rapture also quote Jesus in saying He will come as a thief in the night, meaning it will be secret. Jesus said in Matthew 24:43-44 “But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” Jesus is not talking about coming secretly but coming unexpectedly when we least expect Him and so the wicked will be taken by surprise. This is why Jesus tells us to be ready as we know not the hour of His return. Those who are not right with Christ and living wickedly when Jesus returns we will be taken to destruction as in the days of Noah.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 is also quoted which reads, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” Same message as before be ready for Christ’s unexpected return. And what happens after His return? 1 Thessalonians 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” How secret is sudden destruction? Those that are left after Jesus’ return encounter “sudden destruction.” Again, just like in the days of Noah.
These two “thief texts” are also used to teach a secret rapture. Revelation 3:3 “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” In both these instances just quoted, the secrecy is also in connection with the timing not the nature of the event, and is exactly the same as the other “thief texts.” Notice the phrase in chapter 3:3 which says “hold fast, and repent” and the last part of verse 15 which says “lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

This is once again a warning to be not caught living in sin, because we know not the hour which Jesus will return. He will come unexpectedly when you least expect it as does a thief. It would be no good for the thief if you knew when he was coming as you would be ready for him and he could not rob you. In the same way we need to be ready and living in righteousness now and not just when we think Jesus is coming or we will be “caught naked and our shame seen.” Those who love and obey Jesus will be ready for His return. This is the meaning of the phrase “to come as a thief” that is used several times in the Bible to warn us so we will not be left behind.

And still one more. 2 Peter 3:10 says “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Again, absolutely nothing secret. To the contrary, it could not be more obvious. It states after Jesus comes unexpectedly as does a thief, “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise” and “the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth … shall be burned up.” So when Jesus returns the very next thing is the end i.e. the last day. If coming “as a thief” is a secret rapture which takes place seven years before the end of the world, how can the heavens and earth “pass away” as Peter describes it? Three of these “thief texts” are all followed by the same unmistakable catastrophic sudden destruction. Coming as a thief is unexpected, NOT a secret

 

[JLB]

Did you note that Jesus called this resurrection the “last day?†But how could it be the “last day†if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? Are there two last days?

Pre-trib folks not only must answer this but many questions like this one.

Such as are there two last trumps?

The last trumpet is the last trumpet.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

Here the last trumpet is shown to be sounded after the tribulation.

The angels are sent by God, to sound the the trump.


24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

All the Church will be gathered in heaven and on earth for the resurrection.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Coming as a thief is unexpected, NOT a secret

Furthermore that Day will come as a thief for those of the world, not the true Church.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4



JLB