the rapture???

[for_his_glory]

How is that working out for you? Does telling others horrible evil is about to hit the world for those who reject Jesus bring about salvation? What happened when decades went by and it didn’t happen? (I assume you’ve been preaching this for decades.)

Would you not want to be warned about impending danger so you are not taken as a thief in the night. Being a true child of God by faith doesn't mean our lives are full of lollipops and Unicorns.

Matthew 24:13 says that those who endure until the end shall be saved. This means enduring all the trials and tribulations that this world will bring against us for the sake of our witness and testimony of Christ, Acts 14:22, Rev 2:10. The end means the end of our days here on this present earth when those in the grave and we who are still alive at His coming will then be caught up to Christ and are saved at that time as we have endured all things and never gave up our faith in Christ.

God's word never said we would not go through trials or tribulations, but through many trials and tribulations, if we endure until the end, then we will see the Kingdom of God, Acts 14:22, as we are all called into discipleship as we share our witness and testimony with those who have not yet repented and turned back to God. Below are twenty reasons why God allows us to go through trials and tribulations so that we will always remain in His will.


Why God allows us to go through trials and tribulations:
1. Training as God prepares us for the future
2. Patience as we rely and trust in God's timing
3. Perseverance through trials that we remain in Gods will
4. Trust as God's ways are not our ways and He has a better plan for us
5. To learn from our mistakes
6. To humble ourselves before Him
7. To discipline us
8. Teach us to be dependent on Him alone
9. To spend quiet time with God so He can speak to us
10. To teach us of His protection
11. That we also share in the sufferings of Christ that we be not ashamed
12. Strengthen us to become more like Christ
13. To develop character
14. Build up our faith in the Lord
15. For a testimony and witness to help others
16. To show us sin in our lives that we need to own up to having
17. To remind us that God is in control
18. Helps us gain knowledge and understanding God's word
19. Teaches us to be thankful
20. To take our mind off the things of the world and and put them back on G

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What Jesus spoke and gave to the Disciples to write in Matthew 24:29-31 is the sign given right before Christ returns.

No, those were the signs before Gods Judgement and they needed to leave town to avoid it. His second coming has no signs.

Whether it's in our lifetime or not no one will ever know the day or the hour of His return.

Then by definition, there can be no signs.

I never said Vs. 31 described any disaster or judgement, but is the time of the catching up of the saints.

No, it is the gathering of the believers. “Catching up” is not in the text.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is in direct contradiction with what Jesus says his purpose was. He said, “1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must soon take place.”

That’s what Jesus said. One can accept it or reject it for some other reason not stated anywhere.

As a preterist you believe all these events took place in 70AD.

I do not label myself as a "Futurist" but can clearly see that there is yet much to come that even Jesus himself warned us about before His return on the last day.

 

[Mister E]

Everything given to John in the book of Revelation were visions that he was to write down for things that must come first before the return of Christ. Signs have been prevalent since the days of Noah and those given by Christ in Matthew 24:1-31 for things we are to watch for so we are not taken as a thief in the night.

This I can not agree with as it says "all" will see him coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him. This is the first heaven being the atmosphere where all we see Him coming in the clouds, those alive at His coming and those in the grave. How could those who are not God's own that have rejected Him and His Son Christ Jesus see in the Spiritual realm or have the kingdom of God in them.

I didn’t ask for your agreement. I don’t get excited when folks agree and I don’t get upset when they don’t. I’m sure it’s a new perspective and you have your own ideas— lots of them.

You were connecting the notion that there should have been signs in the clouds “immediately” after the tribulation of those days spoken of in Matthew. Signs in the clouds with the sighting of the son of man... “Then will appear the sign of the son of man— in heaven” it says. Loud trumpets, messengers.... and that’s exactly what John starts with. You can ignore it if you like, but you can’t deny it.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is in direct contradiction with what Jesus says his purpose was. He said, “1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must soon take place.”

That’s what Jesus said. One can accept it or reject it for some other reason not stated anywhere.

BTW, John who wrote these letters to the Churches in Asia while being a prisoner on the isle of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus wrote these letters around 96AD, which would make it 26 years later after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn’t ask for your agreement. I don’t get excited when folks agree and I don’t get upset when they don’t. I’m sure it’s a new perspective and you have your own ideas— lots of them.

You were connecting the notion that there should have been signs in the clouds “immediately” after the tribulation of those days spoken of in Matthew. Signs in the clouds with the sighting of the son of man... “Then will appear the sign of the son of man— in heaven” it says. Loud trumpets, messengers.... and that’s exactly what John starts with. You can ignore it if you like, but you can’t deny it.

And I do not ask anyone to agree with me, but to read that which has already been written without adding to or taking away from it.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This all happens simultaneously just as clearly as it is written.

 

[Mister E]

And I do not ask anyone to agree with me, but to read that which has already been written without adding to or taking away from it.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This all happens simultaneously just as clearly as it is written.

I know you are familiar with the book of Revelation. Read it again with those words from Jesus in Matthew front and center as context.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, it is the gathering of the believers. “Catching up” is not in the text.

Does it not say the angels are sent to gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Put Matthew 25:31 and 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 and you will see the gathering is the catching up of the saints. Those in the grave to meet those who are still alive at His coming. And you wonder why I use so many scriptures as each one confirms the other.

 

[for_his_glory]

I know you are familiar with the book of Revelation. Read it again with those words from Jesus in Matthew front and center as context.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Crossed reference to Rev 1:7; 14:14-15

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

 

[Mister E]

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Crossed reference to Rev 1:7; 14:14-15

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

That seems like a post without a point.

Rev 1:7 quotes Zechariah 12:10 (also referenced in Matt 24). You don’t see Zechariah as fulfilled in the first century?

 

[for_his_glory]

That seems like a post without a point.

Rev 1:7 quotes Zechariah 12:10 (also referenced in Matt 24). You don’t see Zechariah as fulfilled in the first century?

You said: I know you are familiar with the book of Revelation. Read it again with those words from Jesus in Matthew front and center as context.

I gave what you asked for showing giving my point of that which is written in Matthew is also written in Revelation.

What was written in Zechariah 12:10 has nothing to do with the OP as we are talking about the false Rapture theory.

Zechariah 12:10-14 was a fulfilled prophecy when Jesus was pierced in His side while hanging on the cross as many mourned His death that day, but I do not see how it relates to a pretrib Rapture of the Church that is the topic of this thread.

 

[Mister E]

You said: I know you are familiar with the book of Revelation. Read it again with those words from Jesus in Matthew front and center as context.

I gave what you asked for showing giving my point of that which is written in Matthew is also written in Revelation.

What was written in Zechariah 12:10 has nothing to do with the OP as we are talking about the false Rapture theory.

Zechariah 12:10-14 was a fulfilled prophecy when Jesus was pierced in His side while hanging on the cross as many mourned His death that day, but I do not see how it relates to a pretrib Rapture of the Church that is the topic of this thread.

For real? You can’t see that the words John records as being the things revealed by Christ are fulfilled? You acknowledge Zechariah was fulfilled and John quotes Zechariah for context.

He’s saying ‘this’ is ‘that.’

 

[for_his_glory]

For real? You can’t see that the words John records as being the things revealed by Christ are fulfilled? You acknowledge Zechariah was fulfilled and John quotes Zechariah for context.

He’s saying ‘this’ is ‘that.’

But, the point I am trying to make is where does Zechariah in that verse speak about a Rapture of the church? All he is talking about is those who will mourn when they see Jesus being pierced as that was fulfilled in the crucifixion of Christ when many mourned His death.

The resurrection will happen as soon as Christ returns in the clouds and all that are in their graves that we be resurrected at that time will see Christ in the clouds, even the ones who pierced Him.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This time the wailing will be from those who rejected Him finding out that He truly is the Messiah, but it being to late as the door of God's salvation through Christ will then be closed giving no one a second chance. Zechariah was only speaking about those who mourned His death at the crucifixion of Christ Jesus.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Consecrated Life said:
Dorothy Mae,
Which number post in this thread is it you say " fhg already presented" scripture resolving the problematic issue for post-trib believers of the Temple , the daily sacrifice, all being in existence at the same time Jesus says that we as Christians will have no clue or sign of the day He returns?
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

You totally lost me. I have no idea what you mean.

Okay , then just tell me " what you mean " when you told me this :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[B]Dorothy Mae[/B]​

"Anyone with such distain for fellow believers as well as blind to the scriptures already presented (Fhg presents reams of them) ..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You acted as though you wanted me to know that "Fhg" presented reams of scripture that should be relevant to something I had written and you took exception too, yet you failed to quote anything ?
You quote no scripture , after referring to "reams" of scripture ?
And you don't have to quote "reams" of scripture you are alluding are relevant to something I said too, I would settle for just one
Just asking for a little completion & follow through , if you can manage ?
Thank You.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Consecrated Life said:
Dorothy Mae,
Which number post in this thread is it you say " fhg already presented" scripture resolving the problematic issue for post-trib believers of the Temple , the daily sacrifice, all being in existence at the same time Jesus says that we as Christians will have no clue or sign of the day He returns?
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."



Okay , then just tell me " what you mean " when you told me this :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[B]Dorothy Mae[/B]​

"Anyone with such distain for fellow believers as well as blind to the scriptures already presented (Fhg presents reams of them) ..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You acted as though you wanted me to know that "Fhg" presented reams of scripture that should be relevant to something I had written and you took exception too, yet you failed to quote anything ?
You quote no scripture , after referring to "reams" of scripture ?
And you don't have to quote "reams" of scripture you are alluding are relevant to something I said too, I would settle for just one
Just asking for a little completion & follow through , if you can manage ?
Thank You.

Your position was we quote NO scripture. That’s not true. I also quote scripture but don’t fill my posts with them as though that proves anything. I also mix them in my texts, but those who don’t know scripture unless it comes with bold type and large font don’t recognize the words.

Now we are discussing particular points that are NOT. on your list above. And we use scripture in our discussion. It’s difficult to see how you missed them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Does it not say the angels are sent to gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Actually, it’s messengers, and yes but there’s no “catching up” involved.

Put Matthew 25:31 and 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 and you will see the gathering is the catching up of the saints.

You’ve put together two passages that don’t go together. One is the Resurrection and the other is describing a mission given to his messengers after the time of great tribulation.

Those in the grave to meet those who are still alive at His coming. And you wonder why I use so many scriptures as each one confirms the other.

But the authors didn’t have the same event in mind. The Resurrection is followed by the judgement. The Matthew quote mentions the judgement (sheep and goats) much later.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Your position was we quote NO scripture. That’s not true. I also quote scripture but don’t fill my posts with them as though that proves anything. I also mix them in my texts, but those who don’t know scripture unless it comes with bold type and large font don’t recognize the words.

Now we are discussing particular points that are NOT. on your list above. And we use scripture in our discussion. It’s difficult to see how you missed them.

Not exactly .
If you'll look again you will see that I said specific scriptures that make clear the establishment Temple and The nation Israel are the ones consistently avoided in making the case for post-trib.
You are right that plenty of scripture that can be used to make the case is given, reams even , but any time certain scriptures that deal with the tribulation must be avoided that does not help the case you are trying to make .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not exactly .
If you'll look again you will see that I said specific scriptures that make clear the establishment Temple and The nation Israel are the ones consistently avoided in making the case for post-trib.
You are right that plenty of scripture that can be used to make the case is given, reams even , but any time certain scriptures that deal with the tribulation must be avoided that does not help the case you are trying to make .

We weren’t discussing those subjects. So maybe this was addressed to others.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As a preterist you believe all these events took place in 70AD.

I do not label myself as a Preterist, you did that so you can more easily dismiss my challenges.

I do not label myself as a "Futurist" but can clearly see that there is yet much to come that even Jesus himself warned us about before His return on the last day.

You are a Futurist by definition and you didn’t answer my Bible quote.

Jesus said in Rev 1:1 that the purpose of the Revelation was to show his servants what was soon to take place. You did not answer that.

I know it’s because you cannot as a Futurist. What Jesus says is the purpose just cannot be for those in your persuasion.

It’s good to acknowledge that there are questions or problems with the view one has.

 

[Mister E]

I do not label myself as a Preterist, you did that so you can more easily dismiss my challenges.

​

???? I suppose you'll equivocate and say that someone else labeled you as such...?​

​

Dorothy Mae​

Preterist Overseer​

Preterist Overseer