the rapture???

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus Himself informed us that as far as Christians are concerned that there would be no sign whatsoever given as to His return:
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

Yet in His detailing the anti-christ assuming world power and establishing a covenant with Israel, Jesus gives clear indication that the future Temple in Jerusalem will already be built and active in the offering of sacrifices.
( Matt.24:15 ).

It is not a mere coincidence that in this thread and in all others on the subject post-trib advocates avoid these specifics, both in terms of the Christian being able to set their watch to the exact day Jesus's coming again, ( which Christ said you could not do), and the emphasis given in both old and new testament to this period being exclusively about the nation Israel in the " time of Jacob's distress" ( Jer.30:7) .
Never in this thread or in any other dealing with the post-trib theory will you find the advocates of it dealing with these scriptural specifics of their own initiative .
They have to be dragged kicking and screaming to deal with these scriptures.
Just search through this thread?
You will find none of it being delt with .
None!
Only when forced or pressed too will they begin their tap dance on these scriptural specifics .
Just as certain portions of the book of Isiah are never read, if not forbidden to be read in Jewish Synagogues today
the post-trib advocates consistently avoid these vital congruent old & new testament teachings on the tribulation at all costs.
Go ahead and search through this thread or any other on the subject , and you will find them bringing up NONE of it unless pressed against their will to do so.
Anytime you are forced to avoid the Word of God to promote a point you are on the shakiest of ground.
Okay ,Now let the tap-dancing begin !

Anyone with such distain for fellow believers as well as blind to the scriptures already presented (Fhg presents reams of them) is less likely to have a handle on the truth.

What you probably can’t do is recognize scripture within a text. If we use thee act same words without the bells and whistles to alert you to “bible verse coming” you think none are there. This is pretty common. Too many Christians don’t know or live the words so many don’t recognize them. They need large font, bold and in color. If they lived the words, they’d instantly recognize them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The thing that is so sad about Futurism and this Rapture theory is that it gutted the church out of its zeal to share the Good News. Instead of being the messenger going into all corners of the globe sharing the Kingdom, changing nations bringing them under Jesus’ Kingship, they were taught terrible times are coming so hunker down and wait for Jesus’ to save you from them as He surely will. They were taught that time is short, he’s coming any day in a misty elevator so why work for his values in this world?

An excellent history of what a believer did before futurism was known was Patrick who went to Ireland.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus Himself informed us that as far as Christians are concerned that there would be no sign whatsoever given as to His return:
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

T

n2thelight​

he reason is because the world will believe He is here, as they will be deceived when satan pretends to be Christ
This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"!
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" the world" is not who Jesus is speaking too here :
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh

Jesus is speaking to Christians who are not confused at all about the fact that when He does come , there will be no guessing as to whether He is really here or not.
You don't believe that you would have to guess if He was really here or not , do you ?
What Jesus is speaking to here is the human tendency to try and predict the day, time of His coming.
Jesus says that as Christians we would fail miserably at attempting to do that because He will come :
" at an hour when ye think not."

The quotes you give from Revelation pertain to the world that never believed in Him to begin with.
Do you follow me ?

 

[JLB]

The thing that is so sad about Futurism and this Rapture theory is that it gutted the church out of its zeal to share the Good News.

I think you are referring to the pre-tribulation rapture (catching up) theory.

The pre-tribulation rapture teaching is blatantly false and has damaged the Church greatly.


JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

Anyone with such distain for fellow believers as well as blind to the scriptures already presented (Fhg presents reams of them) is less likely to have a handle on the truth.

Dorothy Mae,
Which number post in this thread is it you say " fhg already presented" scripture resolving the problematic issue for post-trib believers of the Temple , the daily sacrifice, all being in existence at the same time Jesus says that we as Christians will have no clue or sign of the day He returns?
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 30 has no “immediate” and is conspicuous that it doesn’t. The other two do, this doesn’t.

The SIGN of the Son of man which was a sword that hung over the city. It wasn’t the son of man but only the sign. If Jesus were coming, there’d be no sign. A sign is a warning of what is to come. It isn’t the thing itself. Btw, that scimitar that hung over the city was accompanied by reports of people seeing warriors in chariots in the heavenlies.

Now the verses after 31 describe no disasters. Nothing terrible. But they also are not anywhere close to describing Judgement.

What they do describe I’m not certain. I’m still learning in these matters which I told Stove when he asked me to participate. I’m not so deep into this view that I can even pretend to know all. Many aspects are unclear to me. Many know a lot more than I do.

What Jesus spoke and gave to the Disciples to write in Matthew 24:29-31 is the sign given right before Christ returns. Whether it's in our lifetime or not no one will ever know the day or the hour of His return.

I never said Vs. 31 described any disaster or judgement, but is the time of the catching up of the saints.

 

[for_his_glory]

Paul wrote that if there’s no resurrection, our faith is dead. My statement was actually what he said. Do you want the reference?

1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

You said our faith is built on the resurrection. How can that be? If we died in faith, then of course we will be resurrected with that same faith which is Christ Jesus in whom God raised from the dead. If God would not have raised Jesus from the grave then our faith would be dead.

 

[for_his_glory]

From my view, you ignore the bits of scripture that don’t fit your view.

But I agree. We can move on. You can ignore what I just wrote this morning or answer as you wish.

What are those bits of scripture that don't fit in?

 

[Mister E]

When I read "immediately after" it doesn't say years in fulfillment, but that it happens right away.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When I read immediately after, and then, and then, and he shall send his angel, in my understanding this all happens at the same time when Jesus comes in the clouds, after the sun is darkened, the moon gives no more light, and the stars fall from heaven.

All of these "signs" were seen and recorded by John in what we know as the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

"In the clouds" is not referring to the clouds in the sky, but the heavenlies- the spiritual realm, the kingdom within.

“Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

John, in describing all he saw and heard starts out like this>>

BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

"Behold" means 'look here' or 'look now' or 'see here' and John goes on to describe the scene in greatest detail.

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually, the Americans bought it, not the Europeans. Scofield put it into his commentary Bible and so through him the Americans swallowed it. It is still mainly in the US churches and whether there’s a pre or post trib rapture, it’s all from Darby. The church held the “times of great tribulation” as Jesus called it, was over in 71 AD. Darby introduced futurism.

Once again I do not believe in the false theory of a pretrib rapture or a seven year tribulation period that Darby and so many other people taught.

No where in scripture does it mention a great seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets of God's mighty wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

If the tribulation of the seven trumpets sounding happened in 70AD then why didn't Jesus return at that time?

 

[Mister E]

Actually, the Americans bought it, not the Europeans. Scofield put it into his commentary Bible and so through him the Americans swallowed it. It is still mainly in the US churches and whether there’s a pre or post trib rapture, it’s all from Darby. The church held the “times of great tribulation” as Jesus called it, was over in 71 AD. Darby introduced futurism.

And from that was spawned masterful works like the Left Behind multimedia franchise! 16 original books, plus spin-offs, prequels, sequels and a kid's series, movies, comics, coloring books.... https://www.tyndale.com/sites/leftbehind/

The literal take turns from silly to ridiculous and millions ate it up.

I remember as a kid being taken to "A Thief in the Night" -- every time I'd come home from school to an empty house I'd have anxious moments-- 'Maybe I missed the rapture' -maybe I've been left behind!

Incidentally as an aside-- those books were authored by Tim LaHaye (now deceased) and Jerry Jenkins-- Jenkins was the writer, LaHaye the theological content provider. I've mentioned elsewhere the new video series on the life and ministry of Jesus the Christ-- it's produced by Jerry Jenkins son. "The Chosen" It's surprisingly good. In fact it's so good, and I'm so biased in knowing too much about Jenkins that I have to hold my breath with the release of each episode because I'm always waiting for it to go off track!

 

[for_his_glory]

Anyone with such distain for fellow believers as well as blind to the scriptures already presented (Fhg presents reams of them) is less likely to have a handle on the truth.

What you probably can’t do is recognize scripture within a text. If we use thee act same words without the bells and whistles to alert you to “bible verse coming” you think none are there. This is pretty common. Too many Christians don’t know or live the words so many don’t recognize them. They need large font, bold and in color. If they lived the words, they’d instantly recognize them.

The same can be said about you or anyone else. Please show respect for others views and understandings even if you disagree with them.

Yes, I do give a lot of scripture as how can one discuss without them. I've learnt many years ago to not take man's word for anything unless what they say lines up with scripture. Way to many try to make scripture line up with what they say. We study to show ourself approved unto God, not man.

 

[for_his_glory]

The thing that is so sad about Futurism and this Rapture theory is that it gutted the church out of its zeal to share the Good News. Instead of being the messenger going into all corners of the globe sharing the Kingdom, changing nations bringing them under Jesus’ Kingship, they were taught terrible times are coming so hunker down and wait for Jesus’ to save you from them as He surely will. They were taught that time is short, he’s coming any day in a misty elevator so why work for his values in this world?

An excellent history of what a believer did before futurism was known was Patrick who went to Ireland.

We are called of God to be watchman and warn others of impending destruction that will come upon all who reject Him and His Son Christ Jesus. But, we not only warn, but also bring them the good news of God's salvation through Christ Jesus so they can stand in the day when destruction comes upon the world.

Eze 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[for_his_glory]

All of these "signs" were seen and recorded by John in what we know as the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Everything given to John in the book of Revelation were visions that he was to write down for things that must come first before the return of Christ. Signs have been prevalent since the days of Noah and those given by Christ in Matthew 24:1-31 for things we are to watch for so we are not taken as a thief in the night.

"In the clouds" is not referring to the clouds in the sky, but the heavenlies- the spiritual realm, the kingdom within.

This I can not agree with as it says "all" will see him coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him. This is the first heaven being the atmosphere where all we see Him coming in the clouds, those alive at His coming and those in the grave. How could those who are not God's own that have rejected Him and His Son Christ Jesus see in the Spiritual realm or have the kingdom of God in them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And from that was spawned masterful works like the Left Behind multimedia franchise! 16 original books, plus spin-offs, prequels, sequels and a kid's series, movies, comics, coloring books.... https://www.tyndale.com/sites/leftbehind/

The literal take turns from silly to ridiculous and millions ate it up.

I remember as a kid being taken to "A Thief in the Night" -- every time I'd come home from school to an empty house I'd have anxious moments-- 'Maybe I missed the rapture' -maybe I've been left behind!

Incidentally as an aside-- those books were authored by Tim LaHaye (now deceased) and Jerry Jenkins-- Jenkins was the writer, LaHaye the theological content provider. I've mentioned elsewhere the new video series on the life and ministry of Jesus the Christ-- it's produced by Jerry Jenkins son. "The Chosen" It's surprisingly good. In fact it's so good, and I'm so biased in knowing too much about Jenkins that I have to hold my breath with the release of each episode because I'm always waiting for it to go off track!

That’s disappointing, not your post, the information it contains. The Chosen presentation of the initial callings are outstanding. The rest is too catholic. Since you’ve named the consultants, I don’t expect much now.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae,
Which number post in this thread is it you say " fhg already presented" scripture resolving the problematic issue for post-trib believers of the Temple , the daily sacrifice, all being in existence at the same time Jesus says that we as Christians will have no clue or sign of the day He returns?
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

You totally lost me. I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think you are referring to the pre-tribulation rapture (catching up) theory.

The pre-tribulation rapture teaching is blatantly false and has damaged the Church greatly.


JLB

The belief that horrible evil is going to engulf the world (futurism) is what I mean.

 

[for_his_glory]

And from that was spawned masterful works like the Left Behind multimedia franchise! 16 original books, plus spin-offs, prequels, sequels and a kid's series, movies, comics, coloring books.... https://www.tyndale.com/sites/leftbehind/

The literal take turns from silly to ridiculous and millions ate it up.

I remember as a kid being taken to "A Thief in the Night" -- every time I'd come home from school to an empty house I'd have anxious moments-- 'Maybe I missed the rapture' -maybe I've been left behind!

Incidentally as an aside-- those books were authored by Tim LaHaye (now deceased) and Jerry Jenkins-- Jenkins was the writer, LaHaye the theological content provider. I've mentioned elsewhere the new video series on the life and ministry of Jesus the Christ-- it's produced by Jerry Jenkins son. "The Chosen" It's surprisingly good. In fact it's so good, and I'm so biased in knowing too much about Jenkins that I have to hold my breath with the release of each episode because I'm always waiting for it to go off track!

Those movies and books have done more damage to the word of God spreading so many untruths, and just to think I use to believed in all of them at one time. Thank you Jesus for bringing me out from under them showing me the truth by your Holy Spirit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We are called of God to be watchman and warn others of impending destruction that will come upon all who reject Him and His Son Christ Jesus. But, we not only warn, but also bring them the good news of God's salvation through Christ Jesus so they can stand in the day when destruction comes upon the world.

Eze 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

How is that working out for you? Does telling others horrible evil is about to hit the world for those who reject Jesus bring about salvation? What happened when decades went by and it didn’t happen? (I assume you’ve been preaching this for decades.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Everything given to John in the book of Revelation were visions that he was to write down for things that must come first before the return of Christ. Signs have been prevalent since the days of Noah and those given by Christ in Matthew 24:1-31 for things we are to watch for so we are not taken as a thief in the night.

This I can not agree with as it says "all" will see him coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him. This is the first heaven being the atmosphere where all we see Him coming in the clouds, those alive at His coming and those in the grave. How could those who are not God's own that have rejected Him and His Son Christ Jesus see in the Spiritual realm or have the kingdom of God in them.

That is in direct contradiction with what Jesus says his purpose was. He said, “1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must soon take place.”

That’s what Jesus said. One can accept it or reject it for some other reason not stated anywhere.