Dorothy Mae
Member
Watch for what? What difference does it make if you don’t watch?
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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the rapture???
- Thread starter evenifigoalone
- Start date
I didn't create this thread. Like I said if you want to start a new thread about the Bema seat go ahead and do that as it is not a part of the OP and anymore replies about the Bema seat will be deleted as being off topic.how about you get your judgment seats straight or there two separate rules ? btw had nothing to do with the rapture. your calling me out on a thread you created but i fully understand
Pretrib teachers use Rev 4:1-2 to prove the Rapture is before the seven trumpets of God's wrath.
God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. We are instructed that during the time of the seven trumpets of God's mighty wrath to be sober putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for a helmet the hope of salvation that we are not to fear those things that must come first, but to stand in faith and the hope of our salvation on the day of the Lord as we endure until the end. Matthew 10:28, Matthew 24:6-28; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9.
This will be the greatest time for the saints that are still alive to preach God's salvation through Christ Jesus to those who have not believed when they see God's wrath being poured out into the world.
Sorry, but I can not make myself any clearer as the resurrection is the gathering of believers that are caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air when He returns.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Can't see why you can not understand those verses.
Where did I ever say that I believed in a pretrib Rapture or followed the teachings of Darby............sheesh!!!
Dorothy Mae
Member
Matthew 24:29-30 is BEFORE the messengers are sent out to gather the believers. This we agree upon.
Now the verse we focus (31) on is described right after so it does beg the question as to when and it’s duration. Your position is immediately begun and finished and mine is begun but years in the fulfillment. The text itself doesn’t specify and why the believers would be gather and to where is not mentioned either. There seems to be no purpose since the Resurrection, we agree, is not this event. This gathering but not the Resurrection is also not at all in Revelation that I recall.
I think there are blanks to fill in for both positions.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Darby taught the Rapture whenever it occurs.
Dorothy Mae
Member
I understand them completely. The resurrection is that upon which our faith is built. Matthew 24:31 is not describing that.
I don’t really understand why you keep thinking I deny the Resurrection.
Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s had a vision of a pretrib rapture, but she felt that the vision felt dark and evil as an untruth. When telling others of her vision many preachers ran with it as being true and started teaching their theories on pretrib rapture. There theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.
I never said you denied the resurrection, but the timing of when it will occur is what we are in disagreement with.
I have given all I can to simplify this with all the scriptures I have given. It seems you and I will never see eye to eye with this so I will move on.
Our faith is built upon Christ, not the resurrection, unless I am misunderstanding what you said.
When I read "immediately after" it doesn't say years in fulfillment, but that it happens right away.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When I read immediately after, and then, and then, and he shall send his angel, in my understanding this all happens at the same time when Jesus comes in the clouds, after the sun is darkened, the moon gives no more light, and the stars fall from heaven.
Consecrated Life
Member
Jesus Himself informed us that as far as Christians are concerned that there would be no sign whatsoever given as to His return:
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."
Yet in His detailing the anti-christ assuming world power and establishing a covenant with Israel, Jesus gives clear indication that the future Temple in Jerusalem will already be built and active in the offering of sacrifices.
( Matt.24:15 ).
It is not a mere coincidence that in this thread and in all others on the subject post-trib advocates avoid these specifics, both in terms of the Christian being able to set their watch to the exact day Jesus's coming again, ( which Christ said you could not do), and the emphasis given in both old and new testament to this period being exclusively about the nation Israel in the " time of Jacob's distress" ( Jer.30:7) .
Never in this thread or in any other dealing with the post-trib theory will you find the advocates of it dealing with these scriptural specifics of their own initiative .
They have to be dragged kicking and screaming to deal with these scriptures.
Just search through this thread?
You will find none of it being delt with .
None!
Only when forced or pressed too will they begin their tap dance on these scriptural specifics .
Just as certain portions of the book of Isiah are never read, if not forbidden to be read in Jewish Synagogues today
the post-trib advocates consistently avoid these vital congruent old & new testament teachings on the tribulation at all costs.
Go ahead and search through this thread or any other on the subject , and you will find them bringing up NONE of it unless pressed against their will to do so.
Anytime you are forced to avoid the Word of God to promote a point you are on the shakiest of ground.
Okay ,Now let the tap-dancing begin !
Luke 12:40
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."
Yet in His detailing the anti-christ assuming world power and establishing a covenant with Israel, Jesus gives clear indication that the future Temple in Jerusalem will already be built and active in the offering of sacrifices.
( Matt.24:15 ).
It is not a mere coincidence that in this thread and in all others on the subject post-trib advocates avoid these specifics, both in terms of the Christian being able to set their watch to the exact day Jesus's coming again, ( which Christ said you could not do), and the emphasis given in both old and new testament to this period being exclusively about the nation Israel in the " time of Jacob's distress" ( Jer.30:7) .
Never in this thread or in any other dealing with the post-trib theory will you find the advocates of it dealing with these scriptural specifics of their own initiative .
They have to be dragged kicking and screaming to deal with these scriptures.
Just search through this thread?
You will find none of it being delt with .
None!
Only when forced or pressed too will they begin their tap dance on these scriptural specifics .
Just as certain portions of the book of Isiah are never read, if not forbidden to be read in Jewish Synagogues today
the post-trib advocates consistently avoid these vital congruent old & new testament teachings on the tribulation at all costs.
Go ahead and search through this thread or any other on the subject , and you will find them bringing up NONE of it unless pressed against their will to do so.
Anytime you are forced to avoid the Word of God to promote a point you are on the shakiest of ground.
Okay ,Now let the tap-dancing begin !
if your trying to convince me of this sorry i be still pre trib ..nice try
n2thelight
Member
The reason is because the world will believe He is here, as they will be deceived when satan pretends to be Christ
Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."
Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles [signs] which he had power [it was given him] to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
This is the whole object for the great tribulation. "DECEPTION"!
Only the sealed of God will not be deceived .
II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Christ returns 3 1/2 day after the two witnesses are killed
Revelation 11:7 "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit [abyss] shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."
Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sod'-om and E'-gypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Revelation 11:11 "And after three days and an half the spirit [breath] of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."
Revelation 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
Care to guess who the 7000 are that get killed ?
Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
Christ will not return before these events take place, period...
Dorothy Mae
Member
Matthew 30 has no “immediate” and is conspicuous that it doesn’t. The other two do, this doesn’t.
The SIGN of the Son of man which was a sword that hung over the city. It wasn’t the son of man but only the sign. If Jesus were coming, there’d be no sign. A sign is a warning of what is to come. It isn’t the thing itself. Btw, that scimitar that hung over the city was accompanied by reports of people seeing warriors in chariots in the heavenlies.
Now the verses after 31 describe no disasters. Nothing terrible. But they also are not anywhere close to describing Judgement.
What they do describe I’m not certain. I’m still learning in these matters which I told Stove when he asked me to participate. I’m not so deep into this view that I can even pretend to know all. Many aspects are unclear to me. Many know a lot more than I do.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Paul wrote that if there’s no resurrection, our faith is dead. My statement was actually what he said. Do you want the reference?
Dorothy Mae
Member
From my view, you ignore the bits of scripture that don’t fit your view.
But I agree. We can move on. You can ignore what I just wrote this morning or answer as you wish.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Actually, the Americans bought it, not the Europeans. Scofield put it into his commentary Bible and so through him the Americans swallowed it. It is still mainly in the US churches and whether there’s a pre or post trib rapture, it’s all from Darby. The church held the “times of great tribulation” as Jesus called it, was over in 71 AD. Darby introduced futurism.