chessman
Member
It was big. Now it's not and I am.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....
- Thread starter Kidron
- Start date
Gregg
Member
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for through these the wrath of God comes on the sons of disobedience. Then do not be partners with them; for you then were darkness, but now light in the Lord; walk as children of light" (Eph 5:6-8).
Sounds to me like Eph 5:5 is describing "sons of disobedience" (Eph 5:6), "them" [not Christians] (Eph 5:7) who are "darkness" [unsaved] (Eph 5:8); as opposed to 'us' - Christians who are "now light in the Lord . . . children of Light."
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Deborah13
Member
I did not say many but how many isn't the point. Here is what John says to the church where clearly there were those who were present in the assembly but were not Christians.
YLT
1Jn 2:18 Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many--whence we know that it is the last hour;
1Jn 2:19 out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but--that they might be manifested that they are not all of us.
Today there are people who join and attend Christian services that are not saved. Wouldn't you agree that a preacher should continue to give the Gospel message in his congregation and continue to warn people that sin brings death if they do not trust the Messiah as their Savior and Lord?
Let's look at the context!
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. 14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:13-18
If a young Christian has their faith weakened or overthrown because they become involved with those who teach a doctrine that states the Resurrection is past, [such as Full Preterism teaches], it may take some time for the Lord to bring them sound teachers to restore them.
This does not necessarily mean they have become "unsaved', it means that they have become involved with those who have strayed from the truth, and are in need of being restored.
However if they continue to stray and wander from the truth...
as the next verse goes on to say -
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
It is interesting that James uses this phrase - wanders from the truth -
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
We have James saying that a brother [brethren] who wanders from the truth, is considered to be a sinner.
Someone who turns him from his error saves a soul from death...
... and cover a multitude of sins.
Love covers a multitude of sins.
James seems to have the same mind as Paul, in that a person can be considered a brother, yet if he is entangled and wanders from the truth, is considered a sinner.
Pretty serious!
Please consider!
JLB
If they were children of disobedience then by logic we have to mean that they were once obedient to God and were believers else how would they be sitting in Ephesus church and bound to be instructed by Paul's Letter to Ephesians?
Deborah13
Member
Joh 8:43 wherefore do ye not know my speech? because ye are not able to hear my word.
Joh 8:44 `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar--also his father.
Joh 8:45 `And because I say the truth, ye do not believe me.
The 'sons of disobedience' are those who will not hear the truth, they believe a lie and will not hear the truth, they reject it and believe the father of lies, satan.
There are people who sit in churches today who do not believe the truth. Why do you think it was different then? Man has not changed.
Gregg
Member
Isn't this also saying that a Christian [someone who is 'of us'] does remain with us, in the body of Christ?
Gregg
Member
It is an assumption that 'they were once obedient to God and were believers.' That is the state in which the Lord finds us before we are saved - disobedient to His will, not having faith in Him and His Christ.
There are [probably] non-believers congregating/sitting in every Church who know about God and understand His instruction.
Deborah13
Member
I not so sure that this scripture can be used to support OSAS. The people who left had a different doctrine, a False one to be sure, never the less different.
At that time there was one Christian church in the city, preaching one gospel and one doctrine. So these who left had no where else to go that was a true assembly of the Body of Christ.
So the believers could know that these were not of them or they would have accepted the same truth and stayed with them.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Unless that sin is the sin of disowning Christ. Then he disowns us.
Here we see the threat of destruction being given to those who were sanctified by the blood of the covenant who then trample on that blood:
"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-27,29 NASB)
Our eyes and our minds have been retrained to skip over, or redefine the part about "the covenant by which he was sanctified" so that it doesn't mean those who have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant through faith.
"...the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' " (Acts 26:17-18 NASB)
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes. As long as you continue to believe, you ARE saved. No question about it. Stop trusting in the blood of Christ and you will no longer be saved.
The problem with this is he then explains to them how their believing is in vain.
And we know from the whole counsel of God that if any one of these sanctified saints disowns Christ, he will disown them. The Bible plainly tells us this.
What is this that you claim we can not do for even 24 hours?
Gregg
Member
I see that 1Jn 2:19 is not a doctrinal statement directly stating that 'someone can not lose their salvation'; however, I see within 1Jn 2:19 God keeping those who belong to Him (Jn 6:39-40, Jn 6:54, Jn 10:28), not allowing them to believe and follow false doctrine.
Deborah13
Member
Now you have overstepped what any scripture says.
Where does it say if one believes they are not saved they are no longer saved? Now you are adding to what the scripture says.
Paul did not just give strong warnings against sin, he gave strong assurances of God's grace towards us.
When people are indoctrinated in the law mixed with grace they can become weak in faith so that they believe the Lord has rejected them and that is very different then them rejecting Him.
Something came to mind about that scripture Hebrews 10:29. It says the blood that 'sanctified' them, not 'justified' them.
Thinking of the believing wife who sanctifies the unbelieving husband so that the children are sanctified. Neither the husband or the children are justified but they are sanctified.
Hmm...
Gregg
Member
Heb 10:26, 29 are "if we . . ." and "How much . . . do you think", already discussed at great length.
Knowledge of the truth differs greatly from knowing the Truth.
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The argument against OSAS has changed from this:
1) He won't let us go, but we can jump out of His hands.
to this:
2) Now He will let us go, He will disown a Christian, [and perhaps a Christian can still jump out of His hands].
Heb 10:39 "But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul."
chessman
Member
The point of my post here is that I think you misunderstood him. He did have a comma in the sentence.
I'm sure Jethro will clarify his own post when he gets a chance. But for the record, I'm pretty sure he meant "as long as you continue to believe [in the Gospel], you ARE saved. My guess is you simply misunderstood what he was saying.
I've never seen him make the argument that "if one believes they are not saved they are no longer saved", for example. I doubt he feels that way.
But he does often say that if a believer stops believing in the Gospel, you are not saved. (you know an out-right rejection of Jesus as God and/or that Jesus rose from the grave, etc.) Which I’ve never said doesn’t make a lot of sense on the surface of the matter. I just simply don’t see it ever happening in the Bible (or in my experience).
Knowing what I do about his ideas on this topic, I doubt he'd say, for example, that a person that simply wonders about their own salvation becomes un-saved, as soon as they do that doubting. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, so-to-speak.