the removal the church isnt supportable

[Grappler]

Grappler, you asked the question below. Do you seriously want to play games over an omitted word you didn't use also below in your quote?

I don't look at reading and studying scripture as "games". Now lets get back to the real issue here. "These are the ones that came out of the great tribulation." In order for someone to come out of something they would have to be in it. So i ask again...where is your pre-trib. rapture?

 

[Eugene]

I don't look at reading and studying scripture as "games". Now lets get back to the real issue here. "These are the ones that came out of the great tribulation." In order for someone to come out of something they would have to be in it. So i ask again...where is your pre-trib. rapture?

I thought you said they had to wait until the end of the tribulation, and having to die on top of that? What is it? Again, do you have scripture?

Next, if those of Revelation 7:14 came out of great tribulation, what of those with Jesus prior to great tribulation; how did they get to heaven? You know, that brings to mind the many that rose when Jesus was resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection . .

 

[JLB]

I thought you said they had to wait until the end of the tribulation, and having to die on top of that? What is it? Again, do you have scripture?

Next, if those of Revelation 7:14 came out of great tribulation, what of those with Jesus prior to great tribulation; how did they get to heaven? You know, that brings to mind the many that rose when Jesus was resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection . .

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection .

What does these scriptures have to do with the church being raptured before the great tribulation?

how did they get to heaven?

They were martyred.

as it is written -

... Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4


They died and went to heaven.

There is absolutely zero scriptures or any principle from Genesis to revelation that even hints that God will remove His people from earth to avoid difficulty.

Not with Noah and the flood.

Not with the three Hebrew children, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.

Not with Daniel in the Lions den.

Not with the Apostles who were all martyred, ...and what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.


... And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.The removal of the Church is unsupportable in the scriptures!!!


JLB

 

[Grappler]

I thought you said they had to wait until the end of the tribulation, and having to die on top of that? What is it? Again, do you have scripture?

Next, if those of Revelation 7:14 came out of great tribulation, what of those with Jesus prior to great tribulation; how did they get to heaven? You know, that brings to mind the many that rose when Jesus was resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection . .

Actually the topic is about the church being removed as being an unsupportable position according to scripture. But as i can see you don't want to talk about that because it would mean your pre-tribulation escape is unsupportable as well. Soooo it seems you would rather attack my post-tribulation view instead of trying to defend your own...i don't blame you.lol You want scripture to support that Jesus is going to gather his elect after the days of tribulation prior to his return?? Oh thats easy. Matthew 24 : 29 “Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will GATHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" Is that enough? Oh and i am still waiting for plain scripture that says that Jesus is going to gather his church before the tribulation.

 

[reba]

Grappler, Eugene is respectful. You might try it....

 

[Grappler]

Grappler, Eugene is respectful. You might try it....

Hmmm...ok...how is Eugene being respectful and i am not? Help me out a little....

 

[reba]

If you wont see the difference I cant put it into words just don't step over a line of rudeness.

 

[Grappler]

If you wont see the difference I cant put it into words just don't step over a line of rudeness.

I always thought respect was a "two way street" but i will try to me more....kind as i disagree with his views.

 

[Eugene]

What does these scriptures have to do with the church being raptured before the great tribulation?

They were martyred.

as it is written -

... Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4


They died and went to heaven.

There is absolutely zero scriptures or any principle from Genesis to revelation that even hints that God will remove His people from earth to avoid difficulty.

Not with Noah and the flood.

Not with the three Hebrew children, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.

Not with Daniel in the Lions den.

Not with the Apostles who were all martyred, ...and what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.


... And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.The removal of the Church is unsupportable in the scriptures!!!


JLB

Hi JLB and thanks for your ideas on this. You ask what Matthew 27:52-53 have to do with the church being raptured before the great tribulation? As to the Church it doesn't, but there are those raised before the end.

As for those killed in Revelation 20:4, I hope to show they were preceded by others in heaven. That said, there is nothing saying all in heaven had to die to get there, but John sees these that were beheaded. This does not occur until the last half of the tribulation because the antichrist does not take power until then.

If we look at Revelation 9:4 those saints experiencing being in tribulation are not allowed to be harmed. "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

I'll leave off here so as to not get stretched in several directions. JLB, are you familiar with what the Lord's Day, or the Day of the Lord refers to? Thanks.

 

[Grappler]

I was wondering if any of you people that believe in the pre-tribulation escape theory could explain to me why (and please don't take this personal) always seem to avoid Matthew 24: 29-31? Just curious because i know when i tried to believe in the pre-tribulation escape theory these verses stuck out like a sore thumb.lol Oh and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 is another one that stuck out like a sore thumb...here Paul says that our gathering together to him will not occur until the Anti-Christ is revealed. Must at least be a mid-trib. rapture shouldn't it?

 

[Sinthesis]

Oh really? Well perhaps you can explain where I'm misunderstanding this scripture.

Revelation 20: 1-3

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time./ (NIV)

Are only the Christians nations? It seems very clear to me.

I'm not sure how you understand the scripture, but the nations in this case are all those (Jew or gentile) being brought to Christ to form the Church. After the Church was firmly established (which resides in the millennium), satan was loosed among the rest of the gentiles as an adversary to the Church. So the protection is eternal for those who accepted it, yet temporary for those who rejected it.

 

[Eugene]

1 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Does John see the entire Church gathered at the same time? From the Lord's Day when he is to describe the events hereafter from that point of time prior to the tribulation, John sees the twenty-four elders, the four living ones, the great multitude, and lastly the one hundred and forty-four thousand.

1 Thessalonians 2:3-4 . . that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 . . he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What part of the tribulation does this occur?

1 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Who is holding back the son of perdition appearing at this present time? Taken out of the way?

Is there only one rapture as it were? We read of Jesus coming as a thief, and then every tribe of the earth seeing Him; are these events synonymous?

1Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again, each cohort caught up will consist of the dead in Christ first, and then we who are alive; all do not have to die to go to heaven.

 

[JLB]

If we look at Revelation 9:4 those saints experiencing being in tribulation are not allowed to be harmed. "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

I'll leave off here so as to not get stretched in several directions. JLB, are you familiar with what the Lord's Day, or the Day of the Lord refers to? Thanks.

Hi JLB and thanks for your ideas on this. You ask what Matthew 27:52-53 have to do with the church being raptured before the great tribulation? As to the Church it doesn't, but there are those raised before the end.

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53

These were those who were led out of the heart of the earth, "captivity as it were", yet have not received their spiritual bodies that are glorified yet.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Paul goes on to explain -

41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24,41-49

So, to use the event described in Matthew 27:52-53 as an example of a resurrection, to substantiate the idea that there was a previous resurrection of the dead "before the end", is not sound doctrine, at best.

As for those killed in Revelation 20:4, I hope to show they were preceded by others in heaven. That said, there is nothing saying all in heaven had to die to get there, but John sees these that were beheaded. This does not occur until the last half of the tribulation because the antichrist does not take power until then.

That said, there is nothing saying all in heaven had to die to get there,...

Elijah and Enoch being the exception, however, by your own rule of interpretation I will say, there is "nothing saying" that Enoch or Elijah are in heaven.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14

Someone may go so far as to say that there is "nothing saying" in these verse's that show that these people from every tribe,tongue and nation who are before the throne of God because they have come out of the great tribulation, didn't die and go to heaven either.

However it does indicate that they were "in" the great tribulation and not raptured "before" the great tribulation.

Those that have a working knowledge of the scriptures that teach us about these things know from the writings of Paul and Jesus' words that the resurrection of the dead occurs when Jesus returns "after" the great tribulation. The rapture is after the resurrection. So its "sound doctrine" to teach that those of Revelation 7 are in heaven because they died.

Whether they had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands, isn't specifically mentioned, but based on all the other scriptures taken as a whole, they certainly didn't get there by being raptured.

This post is too long already. I will address Rev 9 in another post.
JLB

 

[Eugene]

However it does indicate that they were "in" the great tribulation and not raptured "before" the great tribulation.

I agree if we're only talking of the great multitude.

Whether they had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands, isn't specifically mentioned, but based on all the other scriptures taken as a whole, they certainly didn't get there by being raptured.

How do you suppose they got to heaven if not caught up or raptured?

 

[JLB]

I agree if we're only talking of the great multitude.


How do you suppose they got to heaven if not caught up or raptured?

They died and went to heaven.

33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife." 34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:33-36

The resurrection of the dead includes all who belong to The Lord in this age.

As long as people marry and they die, it is still called this age.

The resurrection divides this age from that age.

The scriptures teach the resurrection will occur on earth when Jesus returns to earth and we will be resurrected from the earth and be with the Lord as He reigns on earth for a thousand years.

I see no scripture whereby people who have been resurrected and have their glorified bodies are in heaven.

Someone may go so far as to say that there is "nothing saying" in these verse's that show that these people from every tribe,tongue and nation who are before the throne of God because they have come out of the great tribulation, didn't die and go to heaven either.

However it does indicate that they were "in" the great tribulation and not raptured "before" the great tribulation.

Those that have a working knowledge of the scriptures that teach us about these things, know from the writings of Paul and Jesus' words, that the resurrection of the dead occurs when Jesus returns "after" the great tribulation. The rapture is after the resurrection. So its "sound doctrine" to teach that those of Revelation 7 are in heaven because they died.

... that the resurrection of the dead occurs when Jesus returns "after" the great tribulation.

The rapture is after the resurrection.


JLB

 

[Eugene]

How do you suppose they got to heaven if not caught up or raptured?

They died and went to heaven.

Okay, did they all have to die? and then how does this correlate with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where those that are dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord?

 

[JLB]

Okay, did they all have to die?

If they are in heaven, then they died.

and then how does this correlate with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where those that are dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord?

When Jesus returns to earth, He stays and we stay here with Him.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32

and again

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:1-6

and again -

25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father; Revelation 2:25-27

and again -

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." Revelation 11:15-18

These verse's speak of Jesus Christ reigning and ruling with His faithful on Earth.Then the scripture will be fulfilled that says -

For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, As the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14

and again -

34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.Daniel 2:34-35

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure." Daniel 2:44-45

The kingdom of God shall consume the whole earth and there will be no trace of the evil kingdoms of this world left.

Jesus will sit on His Throne on earth.

When He returns to earth He will Reign and Rule from Earth.

The marriage supper of the Lamb wil take place on Earth!


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

I missed the part where it says the Angel left the lid cracked so he could go torment some. I misread it to see it say sealed. Sorry. :rolling

Just keep reading.

 

[Grappler]

I missed the part where it says the Angel left the lid cracked so he could go torment some. I misread it to see it say sealed. Sorry. :rolling

good one

 

[Grappler]

It is rather amusing sitting here reading these posts....Pre-tribbers seem to be ignoring the 800lb. gorilla in the room. Lets look the big guy right in the eyes...Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." I see the words AFTER, TRIBULATION, GATHER, ELECT,.....very simple...until anyone with a pre-tribulation rapture view can address these verses I am not interested in any other scripture about this. I'm moving on to other topics to discuss...if anyone would like to discuss the post-tribulation rapture view ( the correct view scripturally) any further feel free to send me a private message.