the removal the church isnt supportable

[Eugene]

If they are in heaven, then they died.

When Jesus returns to earth, He stays and we stay here with Him.

Eugene - If all die who do you attribute the following scripture to pertain to? It says those saints alive will be caught up to meet the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

JLB - Jesus will sit on His Throne on earth.

Eugene - Where? I do read in Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Is this what you're referring to?

Thanks.

 

[JLB]

It is rather amusing sitting here reading these posts....Pre-tribbers seem to be ignoring the 800lb. gorilla in the room. Lets look the big guy right in the eyes...Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." I see the words AFTER, TRIBULATION, GATHER, ELECT,.....very simple...until anyone with a pre-tribulation rapture view can address these verses I am not interested in any other scripture about this. I'm moving on to other topics to discuss...if anyone would like to discuss the post-tribulation rapture view ( the correct view scripturally) any further feel free to send me a private message.

Well, there went one of the two "legs" that prop up the pre-trip Rapture "theory". :shocked!

The other one is the famous The rapture is imminent "leg" of this "doctrine'.

The Lord doesn't come as a thief in the night for the Church, so the imminent theory is moot!

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

So much for the "other leg".

Nothing left to prop up that mess.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Eugene - If all die who do you attribute the following scripture to pertain to? It says those saints alive will be caught up to meet the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

JLB - Jesus will sit on His Throne on earth.

Eugene - Where? I do read in Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Is this what you're referring to?

Thanks.

No. That clearly says He stood on Mount Zion.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32

and again -

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17


JLB

 

[Eugene]

Eugene - If all die who do you attribute the following scripture to pertain to? It says those saints alive will be caught up to meet the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

JLB - Jesus will sit on His Throne on earth.

Eugene - Where? I do read in Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Is this what you're referring to?

Thanks.

JLB - No. That clearly says He stood on Mount Zion.

Eugene - So are you saying none are caught up to meet the Lord in the air? Would you also consider the fact that Mount Sion is in heaven? And then where is the throne set for Jesus in Revelation 4:2?

 

[Grappler]

Well, there went one of the two "legs" that prop up the pre-trip Rapture "theory". :shocked!

The other one is the famous The rapture is imminent "leg" of this "doctrine'.

The Lord doesn't come as a thief in the night for the Church, so the imminent theory is moot!

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

So much for the "other leg".

Nothing left to prop up that mess.


JLB

BEHOLD!! A man with understanding.:amen

 

[reba]

Edward you do know there is not a scripture that uses the phrase "The Great Tribulation" . And in the words of Jesus Himself He say the Resurrection is the last day He says that a few times..

 

[Eugene]

Edward you do know there is not a scripture that uses the phrase "The Great Tribulation" . And in the words of Jesus Himself He say the Resurrection is the last day He says that a few times..

Hi Reba, I had the same thought and there are no references in the KJV to "The great tribulation, but refers to that time as "Great tribulation."

KJV Revelation 7:14 - These are they which came out of great tribulation,

However some other bibles do use the terminology "The great tribulation."

NIV Revelation 7:14 - These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;
:waving

 

[JLB]

And in the words of Jesus Himself He say the Resurrection is the last day He says that a few times..

you do know there is not a scripture that uses the phrase "The Great Tribulation"

I don't know why you keep saying that?

And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14


"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation...

JLB

 

[Eugene]

[/B] I don't know why you keep saying that?

And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation...

JLB

Maybe because there is no "The great tribulation" in some bibles, and is in others.

 

[JLB]

The great tribulation is a unique event in that Jesus said -

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21

By saying such as has not been, no, nor ever shall be, He is placing the great tribulation in a category all by itself.

To honor the King James Version, I guess we could refer to it as, "The tribulation that Jesus said would be such as has not been, no, nor ever shall be".

But that is quite a mouth full.

The other major translations of Revelation 7:14 are as such -


I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [RSV]


I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [NAS]



And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [NKJV]


and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb; [YLT]

I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [HCS]


I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [NIV]


And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [ASV]

The bible refers to a distinct 3 1/2 year period in Daniel and Revelation that many agree refers to the time of the Great Tribulation.


I guess my question would be, why are we trying to deny that there will be such a time so unique that The Lord Himself described it as -

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.


JLB

 

[reba]

Hi Reba, I had the same thought and there are no references in the KJV to "The great tribulation, but refers to that time as "Great tribulation."

KJV Revelation 7:14 - These are they which came out of great tribulation,

However some other bibles do use the terminology "The great tribulation."

NIV Revelation 7:14 - These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;

:waving

Yup I know.....I have wondered if the way the term "The Great Tribulation" has been used for the last 100 years influenced the translators to "adjust" the verbiage they use? I AM NOT ATTACKING THE TRANSLATERS OR THE NIV..


The KJV says great tribulation the NIV puts GT in to a time frame ....that is a big difference.

 

[reba]

[/B] I don't know why you keep saying that?

And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14


"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation...

JLB

That is what happens when ya get old and KJ has been in your life from 1946 to now!

 

[reba]

From use of language great tribulation we can see the Christians being fed to the lions having GT .....Christian had GT in the dark ages ....we can also see the church in China having GT

From the use of language the great tribulation it is set to a time specific .

I am not saying this one is RIGHT or that one is WRONG...

 

[JLB]

From use of language great tribulation we can see the Christians being fed to the lions having GT .....Christian had GT in the dark ages ....we can also see the church in China having GT

From the use of language the great tribulation it is set to a time specific .

I am not saying this one is RIGHT or that one is WRONG...

The Great Tribulation is a specific time that is keyed to the phrase "Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place", as spoken of by the prophet Daniel.

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15,21

A further study of Daniel reveals a 3 1/2 year time period that is seen, both in Daniel as well as the book of Revelation.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. Daniel 9:27

This 3 1/2 year time period described in the scriptures as -

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Revelation 12:13

• a time and times and half a time...

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

• a time and times and half a time.

Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:7

• for a time, times, and half a time

2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. Revelation 11:2

• for forty-two months

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Revelation 13:5

• for forty-two months.

And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." Revelation 11:3

• one thousand two hundred and sixty days...

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:6

• one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

All of these different references and descriptions, whether one thousand two hundred and sixty days or a times ,time and a half of time or forty two months, all refer to the same time known as the great tribulation, which is the 3 1/2 year time period that finds its origin in the book of Daniel 9:27, specifically the phrase - But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

It is unique in that it is associated with the event of Satan being cast down to the earth!

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

and again -

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.


JLB

 

[reba]

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


Do we see a literal lamb standing on a literal mountain?

 

[jasoncran]

face palm. imagery that is a beautiful study.

 

[JLB]

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


Do we see a literal lamb standing on a literal mountain?

We see a symbolic Lamb that represents Jesus.

What do the other things represent?

What does this have to do with the discussion of the great tribulation?


JLB

 

[reba]

We see a symbolic Lamb that represents Jesus.

What do the other things represent?

What does this have to do with the discussion of the great tribulation?

JLB

Posted that in response to post #252

 

[Grappler]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture continued...
In Matthew 24:21 (KJV) (<reba!) Jesus is responding to four Disciples in a private briefing about His 2nd Coming. Matthew 24:21-22 Jesus is in effect quoting from Daniel 12:1. He is labeling this period as the Great Tribulation, he gives it that very label. Another label for this time is The Time of Jacobs Trouble Jeremiah 30:7. From that event, to the end of the 7 year period, is the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is actually 3-1/2 years and not 7. The last half of the 70th week of Daniel. Technically, Jesus defined the Great Tribulation as the last half of the week. The end of the 70th week of Daniel concludes the Great Tribulation and then the Milineum begins.

Post Tribulation problems are thus: It denies the NT teaching of Imminency, we are to expect Him at any time. Requires the Church during the 70th week. (Israel and the Church ARE mutually exclusive! Daniel 9:26)(<reference to the Abomination of Desolation!). The Church experiences Gods Wrath, which contradicts 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10 (Promised not to experience.). How can the Bride come with Jesus? Who will populate the Millineum? WHo are the Sheep and Goat Judgement of Matthew 25? Buy oil without the mark of the Beast? (It's not allegorical). Mid-Trib denies Imminence also.

The Rapture precedes the Great tribulation. The 70th week is defined by the covenant enforced by the Coming World Leader! Daniel 9:27 The Great Tribulation = the last half of the 70th week of Daniel Matthew 24:15, 21. The Leader cannot be revealed until after the Rapture 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9

Back in Matthew 24:13, 36, 42, 44 we see the doctrine of Imminency spoken of by Jesus.

I think it is rather amusing when pre-tribbers bring up this idea of imminiency. I have heard some say no one knows the day and hour when Jesus is going to return...then they turn around and say that he is definitely coming before the tribulation. Which is it? do you not know or do you? I am not going to let you have it both ways. If no one knows then how do you know that it will be pre-tribulation?? maybe it is mid-tribulation? or 2 weeks before his return? or how about 2 months before his return? So you see Edward if you are going to use the arguement of 'no one knows' then you can't claim to know that it is definitly pre-trib.

 

[Grappler]

Yes there is reba. I'm getting to it. Typing right now.

Please show me the book, chapter, and verse that says 'Great Tribultion'. Thanks.