the removal the church isnt supportable

[Eugene]

Its possible that the worst 'fable' held dear by the church today is the notion the Christ will be king.

Possibly a dissertation with actual pertinent scripture would give you credibility. I do not consider Josephus' writings as scripture.

Show me this has occurred. I personally expect to be out of here before this with the removal of the Church.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Hitch]

Possibly a dissertation with actual pertinent scripture would give you credibility. I do not consider Josephus' writings as scripture.

You dont consider what Jesus said Scripture either.

Show me this has occurred. I personally expect to be out of here before this with the removal of the Church.

Possibly a dissertation with actual pertinent scripture would give you credibility, to coin a phrase.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You have heard that Israel was destroyed havent you?

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Eugene]

You dont consider what Jesus said Scripture either. Possibly a dissertation with actual pertinent scripture would give you credibility, to coin a phrase. You have heard that Israel was destroyed haven't you?

That's your best shot? What has that to do with the removal of the Church?

 

[Hitch]

That's your best shot? What has that to do with the removal of the Church?

Yawn

say how a bout you quote Jesus on the 'removal of the church ' ?

How about yo quote Jesus on the reason given for bringing 'tribulation ' ?


But you're not up to your own advice are you?

Possibly a dissertation with actual pertinent scripture would give you credibility

 

[Hitch]

Possibly a dissertation with actual pertinent scripture would give you credibility. I do not consider Josephus' writings as scripture.

Interesting implication. Do you know anyone who believes Josephus work is Scripture? Or are you just the run of the mill brainless futurist with the wits of a golf ball?

Show me this has occurred. I personally expect to be out of here before this with the removal of the Church.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Sinthesis]

Possibly a dissertation with actual pertinent scripture would give you credibility. I do not consider Josephus' writings as scripture.

Show me this has occurred. I personally expect to be out of here before this with the removal of the Church.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Nobody considers Josephus' writings as scripture. It's a straw man.

However, your desire to be removed beforehand implies that you don't believe you or the Church are of the elect. Because according to the scripture you provided, the elect obviously persever through the tribulation, otherwise there would be no point to shortening the days for their sake.

 

[Eugene]

Nobody considers Josephus' writings as scripture. It's a straw man.

Your desire to be removed beforehand implies that you don't believe you or the Church are of the elect. Because according to the scripture you provided, the elect obviously persever through the tribulation, otherwise there would be no point to shortening the days for their sake.

Hi Sinthesis, I think I understand what you're saying, but I in fact believe those of the Church are the elect too as we read in Colossians 3:12. "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering."

On top of that Romans 11:2 speaks of Israel. "Romans 11:2. "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

 

[Sinthesis]

Hi Sinthesis, I think I understand what you're saying, but I in fact believe those of the Church are the elect too as we read in Colossians 3:12. "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering."

On top of that Romans 11:2 speaks of Israel. "Romans 11:2. "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

So you believe you're elect per Colossians 3:12, just without the 'longsuffering' part?

Rom 11:2 is a non-sequitur unless you have a point to make.

 

[Eugene]

So you believe you're elect per Colossians 3:12, just without the 'longsuffering' part?

Rom 11:2 is a non-sequitur unless you have a point to make.

I don't see the power to exhibit those characteristics; "Bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering," something we should do as the normal product of us being the elect of God; that is growth as God works in us to will and to do of His good purpose.

Once in Christ (The elect) God continues His work in us, and Romans 8:4 says "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

I reckon my purpose of Romans 11:2 is to show that those which God foreknew (Appointed or chosen); Israel of Paul's interest will move from slumber to fullness, from casting away to reconciling; all Israel shall be saved and this not as a consequence of their works. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:"

It is interesting you chose to pick "Longsuffering." Suffering itself has promise of reward, not of becoming the elect as we read in Romans 8:17, "Joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer with him."

Now how does this fit with being removed? Certain ones will be dealt with at different times. It is certain those of Matthew Chapter 27:52 were caught up. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose." Do you believe they were elect? Enough for now.

 

[Hitch]

Yawn

say how a bout you quote Jesus on the 'removal of the church ' ?

How about yo quote Jesus on the reason given for bringing 'tribulation ' ?


But you're not up to your own advice are you?

Possibly a dissertation with actual pertinent scripture would give you credibility

Cant find anything can ya ?LOL

 

[Hitch]

I don't see the power to exhibit those characteristics; "Bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering," something we should do as the normal product of us being the elect of God; that is growth as God works in us to will and to do of His good purpose.

Having no bearing on the subject.

Once in Christ (The elect) God continues His work in us, and Romans 8:4 says "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Point ?

I reckon my purpose of Romans 11:2 is to show that those which God foreknew (Appointed or chosen); Israel of Paul's interest will move from slumber to fullness,

In reality land Paul ,quoting Isaiah wrote that 'now is the time now is the day of salvation' You are contrary

from casting away to reconciling;

I suggest a review of the opening chapter of Luke's Gospel

all Israel shall be saved and this not as a consequence of their works.

Hmmm are you implying that some are saved by works ?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:"

No of which has anything to do with bloodlines

It is interesting you chose to pick "Longsuffering." Suffering itself has promise of reward, not of becoming the elect as we read in Romans 8:17, "Joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer with him."

Now how does this fit with being removed? Certain ones will be dealt with at different times. It is certain those of Matthew Chapter 27:52 were caught up. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose." Do you believe they were elect?

It is certain that they were dead and were raised and went into the city, to rescue your credability perhaps you will enlighten us as to exactly how you can be 'certain' of any thing else regarding these people ?

Enough for now.

 

[JLB]

I don't see the power to exhibit those characteristics; "Bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering," something we should do as the normal product of us being the elect of God; that is growth as God works in us to will and to do of His good purpose.

Once in Christ (The elect) God continues His work in us, and Romans 8:4 says "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

I reckon my purpose of Romans 11:2 is to show that those which God foreknew (Appointed or chosen); Israel of Paul's interest will move from slumber to fullness, from casting away to reconciling; all Israel shall be saved and this not as a consequence of their works. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:"

It is interesting you chose to pick "Longsuffering." Suffering itself has promise of reward, not of becoming the elect as we read in Romans 8:17, "Joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer with him."

Now how does this fit with being removed? Certain ones will be dealt with at different times. It is certain those of Matthew Chapter 27:52 were caught up. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose." Do you believe they were elect? Enough for now.

It is certain those of Matthew Chapter 27:52 were caught up

To qualify to be "caught up" [raptured] you must first be alive!

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

The saints described in Matthew 27:52 had died, therefore they were at best raised.

52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53

By studying other scriptures on the subject, it is most likely they were simply raised from captivity in the heart of the earth (Abraham's Bosom) and ascended into heaven after Jesus was resurrected.

By no means were these saints "raptured" or caught up as you would have us to believe!

JLB

 

[Eugene]

How about you quote Jesus on the reason given for bringing tribulation?

This would be much easier if you would just quote what you have in mind, but I'll give a shot at it. Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this; I was busy for most of the day.

Revelation 1:9. "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John was in tribulation for the word of God.

This came to pass in 71 AD. Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Tribulation always comes as a result of judgment or testing, and wrath in the Day of the Lord. Joel 1:15 says "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

For instance to the church of Thyatira in Revelation 2:22 "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." Tribulation will bring repentance.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

++++++++++++++++++++++

How about you quote Jesus on the 'removal of the church'?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We see the twenty-four elders and the four Living ones round about the throne and in the midst of the throne in Revelation 4:4 and 4:6 with Jesus when He receives His throne prior to the tribulation; how did they get there? We also see the great multitude in Revelation 7:9, 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. These are caught up since they are before the throne since we read in Revelation 7:14 . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Eugene]

It is certain those of Matthew Chapter 27:52 were caught up.

To qualify to be "caught up" [raptured] you must first be alive!

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Dear brother, would you agree that for the dead in Christ to be with the Lord in the air that they had to get there someway such as being caught up?

 

[n2thelight]

Where is the Church going,and who will be left here on earth.........Also,why is the Church leaving?

 

[Eugene]

Where is the Church going,and who will be left here on earth.........Also,why is the Church leaving?

Good morning. The Church is going to heaven; those unbelievers of the world will remain. We see the evidence of them in heaven in Revelation 4:4, 4:6, 7:9, and 14:1. God's throne is in heaven.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 

[John 8:32]

Good morning. The Church is going to heaven; those unbelievers of the world will remain. We see the evidence of them in heaven in Revelation 4:4, 4:6, 7:9, and 14:1. God's throne is in heaven.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Hmmm,

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

You quoted John 14:13 but did you read it?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

We don't go there, He comes here.

Now as for the church being removed from the tribulation...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The church is physically removed to a place in the wilderness (on earth). The type was the church fleeing to Pella in 68AD before the destruction of Jerusalem. The anti-type is yet to occur.

 

[Hitch]

This would be much easier if you would just quote what you have in mind, but I'll give a shot at it. Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this; I was busy for most of the day.

Revelation 1:9. "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John was in tribulation for the word of God.

This came to pass in 71 AD. Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Why ? Or as above ; How about you quote Jesus on the reason given for bringing tribulation?

Tribulation always comes as a result of judgment or testing, and wrath in the Day of the Lord. Joel 1:15 says "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

For instance to the church of Thyatira in Revelation 2:22 "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." Tribulation will bring repentance.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

++++++++++++++++++++++


Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We see the twenty-four elders and the four Living ones round about the throne and in the midst of the throne in Revelation 4:4 and 4:6 with Jesus when He receives His throne prior to the tribulation; how did they get there? We also see the great multitude in Revelation 7:9, 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. These are caught up since they are before the throne since we read in Revelation 7:14 . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So far one 'gets there' through death and there is nothing here
wrt to removing anyone.

 

[Hitch]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Dear brother, would you agree that for the dead in Christ to be with the Lord in the air that they had to get there someway such as being caught up?

You are tripping over your tongue. As a staff member you should at the least, refrain from this sort of silly semantical nonsense.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Eugene,

The Church is going to heaven; those unbelievers of the world will remain. We see the evidence of them in heaven in Revelation 4:4, 4:6, 7:9, and 14:1. God's throne is in heaven.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

In Matthew 24:36-39, Jesus instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." How was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"


Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Matthew 24:39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."


Did you notice that it was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family! Therefore, when we read, "As the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be," we should be able to come to the same conclusion as any rational minded person and see that the ones taken at the end of the age were the wicked, and not the righteous. And as it also was in his days, after the end of that came, the new Kingdom was set in the earth, and it was given into the hands of those who were not taken.


This SAME principle is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says,


Matthew 24:30 "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken and one left."


Have you ever wondered why it is TWO in the field, or TWO at the millstone? This is a different subject for a different time, but I'll give you a hint: There are only TWO people on Earth; 1. Adam and, 2. Christ. The 'first Adam' - and the 'Last Adam' - the 'natural man' and the 'spiritual man.'


1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."


Why are there just two at the mill? Why are there only two in the field? Will 50% of all of mankind be saved when Christ returns? I don't think so:

Luke 18:8 "...Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"


The reason there are but two at the mill and there are but two in the field is because the old man Adam in each of us will be destroyed and the new man will be saved. But the one that is "taken" is the one that is destroyed, not vice versa.




The same principle is confirmed in the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Matthew 13:30 "Gather ye together FIRST the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barns."


The Word teaches that the evil is removed first. . . not the good!

The Old Testament endorses the same thought.


Proverbs 2:21-22 "For the upright shall dwell in the land and the perfect shall REMAIN in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth."

Psalm 104:35 "Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no more."

Proverbs 10:30. "The righteous shall NEVER BE REMOVED, but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth."



In Luke 17:27, comparing the last days with Noah's day. . . the flood took them all away ... Who was taken away? The ungodly and rebellious.



Rapture believers are looking forward to being taken out from or off from the earth! But what did Jesus pray?

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shoudest keep them from evil one."



The righteous were not taken in 70 A.D. (which was a physical "type") - and they will not be taken in a future snatching away. These verses do not remotely suggest such a thing. But rather, Jesus was very clearly drawing a comparison between the two events of the flood and the destruction of 'physical' Jerusalem (Galatians 4:25). He was speaking plainly that in the same manner the wicked were taken by the flood, so it would be with the wicked in 70 A.D.

The wicked of that day were taken in judgment, while the righteous were left. They were spared the judgment of the son of man coming in the authority and power of God. And there is no reason to believe it is not the same for 'spiritual Israel' (Galatians 3:29) and 'Jerusalem from above' (Galatians 4:26-31); for it is the same Kingdom as it was after the end of that world in 70 A.D.


Much of the confusion comes from the "carnal man's" understanding of "Heaven." To the natural man, heaven is a geographic location. It is simply in a different geographical location in the universe.

However, it is Christ (His many-membered body with Christ Jesus being the Head) Who is caught up to Heaven (a heavenly, or spiritually minded body). They are not "physically" going anywhere, or physically being "snatched up" to some far-away Heaven "out there" somewhere. It is the Body Of Christ having "THE SPIRITUAL MIND OF CHRIST."


Luke 17:20 "Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God does not come with observation';
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."


The reason the so-called Rapture has been turned into a nonsensical fantasy is because it has been seen through the wisdom of "natural man" and the "carnal eyes" of EARTHLY thinking religious men (THE EARTH), rather than through spiritual eyes of a spiritual mind (HEAVEN). The secular, godless realm of humanity (THE SEA) sees any and all of this talk as being foolishness.


These days, Christendom is so lost that, to them, Jesus has become a disembodied spirit floating around somewhere, waiting to take us to a floating city in the sky. The Plan of God is not about an escape out of this world, it is about the transformation of mankind from a creature of the dust into a creature of spirit life.