the removal the church isnt supportable

[Eugene]

In Matthew 24 Christ told us everything that must and will happen before His return.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Notice even the elect are still here........If anybody should be raptured would it not be His elect?

Dear brother, again we're spreading into many directions so I will attempt to answer different portions of this with separate posts.

Any saved throughout the Old Testament, the days of the church, or those saved during the tribulation are the chosen or elect of God. As all are not saved at one time, all will not be caught up at the same time; 1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order. Romans 11:4 In Elijah's time there were seven thousand reserved unto God, today in Colossians 3:12 we are the elect of God, Even those under the altar are God's elect. Revelation 6:11, And white robes were given unto every one of them.

Matthew 24:24, a time of tribulation shows the elect will be present "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

 

[Eugene]

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the seventh and final trumpet, from the time that the two witnesses stand to their feet, we are dealing in seconds, and minutes for it all to occur. The third woe comes with the seventh trumpet. All prophecy in the entire Bible dealing with the seventh, and last trumpet happens instantly at this time. This is the Lord's Day ie, the beginning of the millennium...

Let's examine this. Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. When was this? Was it at the start of the millennium? John was given different viewpoints and the following are from the beginning of that day. For only the millennium to be the Lord's day different things would have to be omitted.

First vision point - Revelation 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

Second vision point - Revelation 4:1 then invites John upward to see things "Hereafter."

Third vision point - Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. This is a view from the earth.

Fourth vision point - Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. The woman apart from God and in the wilderness.

Fifth vision point - 21:10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.

Shortly I will be posting a thread on Vision points of Revelation.

 

[Eugene]

Death is Satan. He has many names and the role that he plays for each will be striped until the last which death.....

So do you think Satan is the false prophet, and the beast, and the devil: You do realize all three will be in the lake of fire at one time don't you? Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Do you have any scripture showing that Satan is our enemy death? Thanks.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By n2thelight,

Death is Satan. He has many names and the role that he plays for each will be striped until the last which death.....

I think you are confusing 'death' with "the power of death." "The power of death" is "the fear of death." All of mankind is by nature afraid of dying and will do all in his power to preserve his life:

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the POWER of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Ephesians 5:29 "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church."


Satan is not death itself, nor is it Satan who causes us to die. That is what flesh was created to do. Satan's power is to incite in our flesh the fear of it's demise. Our flesh argues that if there is not a body of flesh then there is no you or me. God has delegated to Satan "the power of death" - which is fear - and Satan has used that power, "the fear of death", to further all of his other lies.

 

[n2thelight]

Dear brother, again we're spreading into many directions so I will attempt to answer different portions of this with separate posts.

Any saved throughout the Old Testament, the days of the church, or those saved during the tribulation are the chosen or elect of God. As all are not saved at one time, all will not be caught up at the same time; 1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order. Romans 11:4 In Elijah's time there were seven thousand reserved unto God, today in Colossians 3:12 we are the elect of God, Even those under the altar are God's elect. Revelation 6:11, And white robes were given unto every one of them.

Matthew 24:24, a time of tribulation shows the elect will be present "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Where is the rapture in Matt 24 ?

Eugene

Let's examine this. Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. When was this? Was it at the start of the millennium? John was given different viewpoints and the following are from the beginning of that day. For only the millennium to be the Lord's day different things would have to be omitted.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.
"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord.

This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time.

So do you think Satan is the false prophet, and the beast, and the devil: You do realize all three will be in the lake of fire at one time don't you? Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Do you have any scripture showing that Satan is our enemy death? Thanks.

Just as Christ,satan has many names......

The Bible calls Satan by many different names. Each name has a slightly different meaning. The many other names for Satan give a fuller picture of who Satan is and what he does. There are more names for Satan in the Bible than for anyone else except Jesus Christ.
Abaddon

Hebrew name for Satan meaning “Destruction”. “And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Accuser

“Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, ‘Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.’” Revelation 12:10
Adversary

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” 1 Peter 5:8
Angel of light

“And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.” 2 Corinthians 11:14
Angel of the bottomless pit

“And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Anointed covering cherub

"You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones." Ezekiel 28:14
Antichrist

“And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.” 1 John 4:3
Apollyon

Greek name for Satan meaning “Destroyer”. “And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11
Beast

“9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, ‘If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.’” Revelation 14:9,10

These are just a few.....

I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This last enemy that shall be destroyed is "death", which is one of Satan's names, and that will be the second death. It is the death of all evil, and it is a spiritual death. Friend, not even Satan is destroyed until after the great white throne judgment. The first death is the death of your flesh body, while the second death is the death of your very soul itself. It will be blotted out as though it had never existed, not even in the minds of your mother and loved ones. This is the most tragic thing that can happen to a child of God.

Osgiliah
I think you are confusing 'death' with "the power of death." "The power of death" is "the fear of death." All of mankind is by nature afraid of dying and will do all in his power to preserve his life:

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil;"

Satan's name is "death", and he has already been sentenced to death. Satan is going to die, and there is no repentance for him, for all hope was taken from Him in the first earth age. Ezekiel 28:12 tells us that our Heavenly Father created Satan [king of Tyrus], and that he was one of God's sons.

 

[n2thelight]

In Matthew 13, Jesus tells the disciples a couple of parables. One of them being the wheat and the tares. Now have a real good think about the following verses:

Matthew 13:24-30 ...'Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.'
These verses alone show the rapture theory to be false. Notice that Jesus says to leave the wheat (children of God) and the tares (the wicked) TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. When is the harvest?
Matthew 13:38-40 ...'The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.'

There we have the Bible truth. Not only does Jesus confirm that the harvest is the end of the world, but he says the angels are the reapers and they come (with Jesus) to gather up the wicked FIRST and then the children of God. So this harvest is when the separation takes place, AT THE END OF THE WORLD, not seven years before in secret.

 

[n2thelight]

Eugene

Rapturist teach that Christ could come back at anytime to rapture the Church,where is that in scripture?Also since this is the teaching,at what point in time since He died on the cross could He return?

 

[Eugene]

Not only does Jesus confirm that the harvest is the end of the world, but he says the angels are the reapers and they come (with Jesus) to gather up the wicked FIRST and then the children of God. So this harvest is when the separation takes place, AT THE END OF THE WORLD, not seven years before in secret.

I reckon we're still talking of two different times, and getting no closer. Once convinced of a doctrine it is hard for all of us to see something new. Thank you for your courtesy in this end times discussion and so I'll just leave you with this and no answer is really necessary.

From Revelation 4:1 John is caught up to be shown things which must be hereafter at the beginning of the Lord's day. Question. Who are the twenty-four elders (Revelation 4:4) and four living ones (Revelation 4:6) round about and in the midst of the throne with Jesus as He receives His own throne (Revelation 4:2) prior to the tribulation, and just how did they get there? How do the great multitude of Revelation Chapter Seven stand before the throne of God, and the one hundred and forty-four thousand appear in heaven? They get there some way.

You also put emphasis on the term "End of the world," do you know that is also the end of an age? E.g., the fullness of the Gentiles is over and the Lord's day begins; the millennium is finished and judgment of the wicked comes and eternity begins. My thoughts.

God bless you in Jesus' name.

 

[n2thelight]

How do the great multitude of Revelation Chapter Seven stand before the throne of God, and the one hundred and forty-four thousand appear in heaven? They get there some way

These are people who have died throughout all of time,how do you think Mosses appeared with Christ,if he(Mosses)was not already in heaven......

You say we are on two different times,one question,where is the rapture in Matt 24,I ask because Christ told us everything that must happen before His return,therefore it should be there........

 

[n2thelight]

Where is it written in scripture that Christ can return(imminant)at any time??Just one..................

 

[Eugene]

These are people who have died throughout all of time, how do you think Moses appeared with Christ, if he (Mosses) was not already in heaven......

Moses had committed a sin unto death; do you think he had a crown to throw at Jesus feet? Revelation 4:10. The four and twenty elders fall down before Him (Jesus) that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne . .

Yet we see certain of the Church that are told in Revelation 2:10, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

You say we are on two different times, one question, where is the rapture in Matt 24, I ask because Christ told us everything that must happen before His return, therefore it should be there........

Matthew 24:3. "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Tell us, when shall these things be? Matthew 24:4. "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you." Without detailed explanation this is the man of sin. When is it? The second half of the tribulation.

When is the end of the world of age? Matthew 24:6. "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." The end of the age will occur at the end of the millennium.

What shall be the sign of thy coming? Matthew 24:29-30. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days (What days?) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. 30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31. "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." But these are not the elect of the Church already raptured; these are tribulation saints.

I'm not sure if you think Matthew 24:39. "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" is describing a rapture of Church saints, but it is not. Those taken away in the days of Noah were taken to judgment; not heaven.

When is Jesus coming? As a thief or where every eye shall see Him? Here are four illustrations of different times. "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning" I reckon I'm going to end up having to post my notes on a study given by Gene Hawkins.

 

[n2thelight]

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is going to talk to us about the return of Jesus, and our gathering back to Him. He says, don't be troubled or doubtful, due to a (deceiving) spirit, some other teaching, or any letter we have written you (the first letter), as that the day of Christ is at hand. The day of Christ is not at hand, it will not happen, until the events are fulfilled that we will read about in the next verse.

3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul makes it very clear that the day of Christ will not come, until there is a falling away first, and the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed. Now how could any reasonable person read this and say that nothing has to happen before Christ returns? This is one of the places were teachers have taken a great liberty with the word. Some will tell you that this falling away is the rapture of the church. This is absolutely not true and can be easily disproven. If you have a Strong's Concordance you can look up this word falling, #646 apostasia:, it means deflection from the truth. If you have been taught this is the rapture, then you have been deceived. It actually means apostasy, which is to abandon one's religion. This is being fulfilled right now, in fact those who teach this are fulfilling it.

The second event that has to occur before that day, is the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition. To understand who this is we must examine both titles. We know that sin entered into the world when Eve was beguiled by the serpent, which is Satan, and took of the tree of knowledge, Genesis 3:6. So if sin entered into the world as a result of the deception of Satan, wouldn't it make sense if he was called the man of sin? The other title, "the son of perdition", #684 in the Greek, means to perish or die. Only one entity, (by name), has been sentenced to death by God at this time. Our (eternal) judgment, will not come until the white throne judgment in Rev. 20:11-12. You can read where God sentenced Satan to death in Eze. 28:13-19.

Now that we know who this is, we need to find out at what time he is revealed. As verse 3 plainly states, that day is not coming until he is revealed. Now in order to reveal something, it has to have been hidden. I have maintained throughout the studies on this site, that the antichrist will come to the earth playing Jesus. This is why it is hidden, and this is how he is able to deceive so many. In Rev. 12:9, it says he will deceive the whole world. If he was immediately revealed at the point he is thrown out of heaven, he wouldn't deceive anyone. Of course some would willingly follow him, but how many could he apostatize, that is, how many Christians would abandon Christ, to worship him. I dare say very few, but by playing Christ, and very well I might add, he will deceive them and they won't even know who they are worshipping.

Rev. chapter 16 gives you the 7 vials, which are the seventh trump. There you will find, the vials are judgments from God upon the beast and his followers. Many that teach the rapture like to say God hath not appointed us to wrath, and for this reason the rapture is a valid teaching. Well, the tribulation can be broken down into two parts. The first part is the tribulation by Satan, and the second beginning with the seventh trump, is the tribulation by God. The tribulation by God is only for the beast and his followers. It is during this period of the seventh trump that Satan will be revealed for who he truly is. All those that followed him will be receiving these plagues, and there will be no doubt that they are not in good standing with God. They will realize they have been duped and the whole world will know he is a fake. After this, and only after this, does Christ return to reign on the earth. Every verse that deals with the return of Christ, has to do with His returning to reign on the earth. All you need do is take the time to read them in context.

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This verse clearly states the son of perdition will portray himself as God. This is how he deceives the whole world. It's not complicated, it's not made up, it's simply what the Word of God tells us. What is the temple of God? Is it not the body of Christ, the church? He will stand in the midst of them, making this claim, and sadly many will believe him.

6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

In order to understand this verse we need to understand who or what is being referred to. The word withholdeth, means "holds fast", and the he is Satan, as we learned from verse 3. So this should read "now ye know what holds fast that the man of sin, the son of perdition, might be revealed in his time". I know those who teach the rapture say the church is the what, that is holding fast in this verse. This is incorrect, the Greek word that is translated "what", which acts like an English pronoun, is #3588, and it is singular and neutral. Meaning it can only be speaking of a place and not a person or people. If we go to Rev. 12:7, we find that that the beast rises out of the bottomless pit. So this has to be the what that is holding him. We also find, that before Satan comes to the earth as antichrist, there is war in heaven, and he is kicked out of heaven by Michael. No place is found in heaven for him anymore. We can easily draw from these verses that Satan is being kept in a bottomless pit somewhere in heaven.

7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

We have just covered the what, now we will clarify who is holding Satan. The he that is holding fast, "letteth" in this verse, can only be Michael. Since it is Michael which casts him to the earth, it must be Michael who is holding him. It makes no sense to say the church is holding Satan, it's clear Satan is being held in a bottomless pit. To say that this is spiritual makes no sense either because his spirit is already at work on the earth (iniquity doth already work). If we can't hold his spirit from working on the earth, how can we hold him de facto from coming to the earth? This business about the church being the great restrainers will not hold water.

8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The one that holds fast, Michael, will hold fast, to Satan, until he (Michael), is taken out of the way. Then shall that Wicked be revealed, (Satan), whom the Lord shall consume and destroy. Why is Satan revealed after (Michael) is taken out of the way? Once Michael stops holding him, he makes his way to the earth, and at the seventh trump, God's judgments make it clear he is a fake. Deception is receiving him as Christ, when you receive the rapture as truth you are in danger of receiving the antichrist as Christ. The antichrist comes first, be ready!

9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Notice those who perish do so because of a lack of truth, not because they didn't want to, but because they were deceived into believing a lie. Don't be one of those, this is not hard. Let the Bible be your authority and not man. This is the great falling away - the deflection from the truth, (apostasy), we read about in verse 3.

11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God will send those who would not receive the truth strong delusion, in the form of the antichrist. This is the lie, he's coming playing God and many have been taught that Christ comes first. This makes it really easy, much of the deception is already here, iniquity is already working.

12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness


Again I ask,how can Christ return at any moment when Paul just told us,He's not,until certain things happen.....

So where in scripture can I find that Christ could return at any moment?To teach such is to clearly disregard scripture......Heck ,even Christ Himself told us everything that must happen before His return...........

 

[n2thelight]

Acts 1:11 "Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

Did you get that? You are going to see Jesus come back to earth, at the second advent, coming in like manner as these men and women have seen Jesus ascend up into heaven. Jesus is going to return exactly as He had left. There is not going to be a stopping in space, while some claiming to be Christians are whisked away, flying out of here, No; it will be exactly in like manner as Jesus' going into heaven.

Jesus left from the Mount of Olives, and He ascended up into the clouds, and He is going to come back in the same manner. Not to park somewhere on a cloud, but as you seen Him go, you will see Him return. It can't be hard to understand as many so-called religious scholars try to make it, with all their "hocus pocus rapture doctrines".

Where is this rapture?????Truth be told,it's a biblically unsound doctrine!!!!

 

[Eugene]

Eugene

Rapturist teach that Christ could come back at anytime to rapture the Church, where is that in scripture? Also since this is the teaching, at what point in time since He died on the cross could He return?

As close to what you're asking I suggest Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come as an analogy of the rapture of the church, though it is not that same time frame. I do think the closer the Jews come to offering a daily sacrifice again the time is indeed right at the door. Daniel 12:11. This will occur 1290 days before Matthew Chapter begins.

 

[Eugene]

It can't be hard to understand as many so-called religious scholars try to make it, with all their "hocus pocus rapture doctrines".

Where is this rapture????? Truth be told, it's a biblically unsound doctrine!!!!

......................... Okay.

 

[n2thelight]

So according to those who teach the rapture,Christ returns,twice more,would that be correct?

I agree with you that it seems we are all over the place,so let me sugest this,give me your rapture verses,and I will attempt to show that,it's the same as the 2nd coming.........Also we see many scripture's on the 2nd coming in the old testament,can you show me any for the rapture?

 

[Eugene]

Regardless of the spin one puts on scripture certain evidence is paramount. Below are listed events that cannot be denied. If you want to proclaim them, and assign them to other than what the Apostle John experienced and saw have at it.

Revelation 1:10,19. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

John was caught forward in spirit to the Lord's Day. When is that day? Since we read in Revelation 4:1 of John being asked to "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." From when? from the things that are. This is all future from that point in time of the beginning of the Lord's day.

Can we agree on this?

BTW - I do believe in different raptures I'll attempt to bring out if we can ever find time lines on this.

 

[Sinthesis]

Things that are future to the time of Johns vision, can also be in our past.

 

[Eugene]

Things that are future to the time of Johns vision, can also be in our past.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Has Jesus taken power from the nations? Is the times of the Gentiles over; what of their fullness? Romans 11:25. Will God deal with Israel again? Thanks.

 

[Hitch]

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

This is the personally stated reason given by Christ to preach the Gospel to the world

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

you should know the last enemy is death

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Has Jesus taken power from the nations?

Seen any Roman legions latelyl? What nation is not under Christ's authority?

b Is the times of the Gentiles over; what of their fullness?

Futurrists often make a great deal of this but there just isnt a passage anywhere that says anything about some great Israel based revival following, it is completely imaginary and contrary to Pauls explanation and application of Isa 49.

Romans 11:25. Will God deal with Israel again?

Sure as soon as He requires another virgin birth.

Thanks.

If Paul is correct and there is indeed a 'Jerusalem which is above' it follows that this heavenly Jerusalem is part of an 'Israel which is above'; the Israel of God which receives His care and protection every day.