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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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the removal the church isnt supportable
- Thread starter jasoncran
- Start date
H
Hitch
Guest
Is there some connection here to the topic?
smaller
Member
I would not disagree with any of your observations. As to the final construct, I might see it somewhat differently.
We know for example that the renewal or the 'final product' so to speak entails putting off of the dishonor, corruption, weakness and the natural body that we all have for a fact presently.
We also know that the creation itself still suffers from similar corruption:
Romans 8:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
We also know that there will be no more death, which also implies that death that exists in creation itself, the primary cause of the groaning and pain, will pass off and away.
This to me implies a required renewal of the earth where these matters no longer exist:
Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
It is just as likely that there will be both removal and renewal for the creation itself. And that the wicked will remain for a cleansing of fire.
Jeremiah 51:
43 Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth any son of man pass thereby.
44 And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall.
45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the Lord.
2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
May not be the place to hang out while that is going on?
That being said, I totally agree with you on the 'separation' matters being 'personal' and to the 'flesh/carnal' man, though the real matters behind that I would see as the wickedness of Satan in the hearts of men. It does not pay me to blame the blinded themselves where there is a cause that is not them that is upon them.
It is that CAUSE that is the fulcrum of final division, of Revelation, of destruction, of required renewal.
Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
s
O
Osgiliath
Guest
You are the quintessential archetype, and the perfect example to illustrate Paul's profound point:
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Proverbs 1:22 "How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge?"
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O
Osgiliath
Guest
Good post smalls.
. I want to reply to a few of your points when I get home from the gym in a few hours. Hitting the treadmill :on2thelight
Member
Good morning to you as well
Revelation 7:10 "And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."
In other words, these great numbers of people, came from all races and nations and languages on the face of the earth, and each and every one of them have been saved.
This is not part of the "rapture" as many teachers teach. No; but it is the people who have died in the Lord's work, and have gone to be with Him. It is my father who died twelve years age, and my uncle Ron who has passed on; It's my grandmother Knecht, who passed on when I was a child, and every other saint of God, who lived a life on this earth, and died and went to be with the Lord; from any century in this earth age. Those are the ones John sees standing before the Lord in their white robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb, and their sins made white as snow.
Though we laid their fleshly bodies in the ground, Praise God their souls went immediately to be with the Father. [Ecclesiastes 12:7] From Adam and Eve to this present time, all these saints of God are now angelic soul beings; though they sinned in the flesh, each has repented of their sins, and God is faithful and just to forgive all those sins, and make them white and pure as snow.
I don't see a rapture in any of those verses.....Christ comes here,only those who have died are in heaven,thats how He brings them here
I will just say that there are some alive that will be caught up according to the following scripture.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What is the order? The dead first, and them those that are alive. 1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order (Such as a rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. When is Jesus' coming?
Revelation Chapters Two and Three show the judgment of the Church. There are five of these churches that are told to repent, and two are commended; Smyrna and Philadelphia. These two have crowns, and one is told to be faithful unto death and the other to patiently keep the word. Of the first rank Smyrna the dead in Christ, and Philadelphia representing those alive to be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. If you're interested in going further with this just tell me, or debate it. If not that is fine too. God bless you in Jesus' name.
smaller
Member
Anyone who has spent time in the scriptures, to observe the matters of the 7 churches should come to 'association' ground.
They are not easy matters to wade through.
We are all advised to listen to what is being said to all of them, as there are matters to be gathered from all of them, both good and bad, which is probably the first and hardest lesson to hear.
We all have a tendency to only take the good, but the workings of Satan/evil are addressed in all of them. And every believer who reads will instantly excuse themselves from that applicability.
I've found there to be more interesting sights to be had with the matters I don't like to hear.
As to crowns, Paul saw people as his crown. Those he reached and helped in their faith.
As to meeting in the 'air' that can also be read as a 'spiritual' matter of meeting. Air is an association term to Spirits, both good and bad. We know for example that there is a 'prince of the power of the air,' the spirit of disobedience, also noted by Paul. So there might appear to be a 'resistance factor' in the 'air.' Not meaning 'air' whatsoever.
Clouds are a picture of obscurity. Some clouds, such as the cloud deployed over Israel in their delivery from Egypt even gave light to them and darkness to the enemies. That would be a dual working principle, and certainly one in obscurity as it's not an 'either or matter.'
The churches themselves are in Asia. Not Asia as we know the far east, but a Roman province. Asia in general is an area of 'eastern' association and east in the text is also a correlative term for the direction of evil. West is an associated term to the good side of the ledgers.
It's actually quite fascinating in construct. More than meets the surface anyway.
In each case of the churches Jesus introduces an aspect of His Character. Obviously somethings we should be seeking for. And in each case the respective rewards to each church are correlated to the Characters that Jesus Himself has introduced into the respective churches in each preamble. It might even seem that is part of the delivery intended for the entirety as all are ascribed to listen to what is being said. There are in effect 7 characteristics that Jesus fully intends to deploy into the church bodies, and to each member therein.
I might also note that when each of the churches come to grips with these matters, as it pertains to 'how many ever' current believers are meant to enter into understandings, there may be few, there may be vast amounts, I can not say, that those engaged in that will enter into some of the other matters deployed therein.
In this way I am not inclined to see us all immediately whisked off the planet any time soon.
s
Sinthesis
Member
Given this interpretation, supposing you pass away this evening, what do you believe will happen to your soul since your body didn't made it to the 'rapture'?
Sinthesis said:
Good question. Shortly after Calvary, paradise is in heaven. The spiritual dead are there instead of Abraham's bosom in the lower parts of the earth.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him (The thief), Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Where did Jesus go when He died?
Ephesians 4:9-10 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. Where is heaven? Is it really up? I believe so.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise . . Where is paradise today?
Where is our bodies, the flesh when we die? I say the grave. Where is our spirit? Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward . .
Again, the church of Smyrna represent one segment that will die prior to the catching up of Philadelphia, and yet they will both be caught up, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This said, what part of us if any do you believe will be caught up to God wherever you perceive Him to be? Thanks.
My thoughts.
n2thelight
Member
Okay,let's take it from the subject.....
I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.
It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.
After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.
This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.
I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].
It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."
This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.
"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.
Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.
Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.
To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.
Why?
Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.
Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.
I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.
Now about the Churches in Rev.
Most churches of today don't realize that at the sounding of the seventh trumpet and Jesus Christ's return, all of the churches will still be right here on earth. This was pointed out in the first chapter. The churches John saw, the "seven candlesticks", were right here on earth on the "Day of the Lord". On that "Day of the Lord" the entire tribulation is over, finished, and the churches [candlesticks] are still on the earth.
Friend, if your looking for a "Rapture", for someone to fly you out of here before Satan comes to earth in his role as the Antichrist, as many churches teach; it means you will have already worshipped the Antichrist at the time this vision of John. It means that you have taken Satan's name, and that you have also taken his number; it means you have been deceived. This is why it is important that you should study all of God's Word, and not listen to the traditions of men that go against the Word of God. It will save you great deal of embarrassment when you stand before your Heavenly Father on "The Day of the Lord". Don't be ignorant of God's Word.
The 7 Churches are just types,of what is being taught in the world today,only 2 knew and taught the truth.......
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Eugene said:
n2thelight - I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.
It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.
Eugene - So much for the scare tactics. My soul is not at stake of how I see the rapture; my salvation is predicated upon Jesus' dying for me, and my believing on Him.
n2thelight - After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.
This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.
Eugene - Let’s just make sure that we realize that this is written to Christians; not heathen.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
n2thelight - I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].
It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father.
Eugene - What happened to John 20:17, Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Are you saying this is after the forty days?
n2thelight - When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Eugene - Are you saying that if we were to dig up the graves of dead saints we would find no remains? If our spirit is with Him, just what do you think is going to be raised?
n2thelight - I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."
This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written. "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.
Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.
Eugene - I'm sorry, but I believe you to be wrong.
n2thelight - Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.
Eugene - Are you saying that the last trump is the seventh trumpet?
n2thelight - To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.
Why?
Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.
Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.
I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.
Now about the Churches in Rev.
Most churches of today don't realize that at the sounding of the seventh trumpet and Jesus Christ's return, all of the churches will still be right here on earth. This was pointed out in the first chapter. The churches John saw, the "seven candlesticks", were right here on earth on the "Day of the Lord". On that "Day of the Lord" the entire tribulation is over, finished, and the churches [candlesticks] are still on the earth.
Friend, if your looking for a "Rapture", for someone to fly you out of here before Satan comes to earth in his role as the Antichrist, as many churches teach; it means you will have already worshipped the Antichrist at the time this vision of John. It means that you have taken Satan's name, and that you have also taken his number; it means you have been deceived. This is why it is important that you should study all of God's Word, and not listen to the traditions of men that go against the Word of God. It will save you great deal of embarrassment when you stand before your Heavenly Father on "The Day of the Lord". Don't be ignorant of God's Word.
The 7 Churches are just types, of what is being taught in the world today, only 2 knew and taught the truth.......
Eugene - Dear brother, you are determined to make the earth the dwelling place of Jesus during the millennium and I do not believe that. E.g., Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Is this to you the earth? Let's read an explanation of this mount in Hebrews 12:22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
My thoughts.
BTW - I'm very interested in the church that teaches this doctrine. Thanks.
tkstone
Member
could it be that Enoch represents the church and not Noah?
n2thelight
Member
n2thelight - I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.
It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.
Eugene - So much for the scare tactics. My soul is not at stake of how I see the rapture; my salvation is predicated upon Jesus' dying for me, and my believing on Him.
n2thelight- Not meant to be a scare tactic at all,it's just that if you believe in the rapture,there's a very good chance you will fall for the deception of satan pretending to be Christ,that's what the trib is all about,deception............
n2thelight-This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.
Eugene - Let’s just make sure that we realize that this is written to Christians; not heathen.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
n2thelight- Yes it is written to Christians,and that's why Paul dosn't want them thinking like the heathen...
n2thelight - I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].
It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father.
Eugene - What happened to John 20:17, Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Are you saying this is after the forty days?
n2thelight-No,this is before....
n2thelight - When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Eugene - Are you saying that if we were to dig up the graves of dead saints we would find no remains? If our spirit is with Him, just what do you think is going to be raised?
n2thelight-only their bones,raised from where? All return to the Father at death,to believe otherwise,is to believe in soul sleep,and that's simply not scriptual.....
n2thelight - I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."
Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.
Eugene - I'm sorry, but I believe you to be wrong.
n2thelight- Which part ?
n2thelight - Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.
Eugene - Are you saying that the last trump is the seventh trumpet?
n2thelight- That's exactly what Im saying,unless you can show me the sounding of an 8th,the 7th is the last......
Eugene - Dear brother, you are determined to make the earth the dwelling place of Jesus during the millennium and I do not believe that. E.g., Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Is this to you the earth? Let's read an explanation of this mount in Hebrews 12:22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
My thoughts.
That's exactly where Christ shall dwell during the millennium........
Revelation 14:1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Si'-on, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
This "Lamb" is Jesus Christ. Christ has returned at this time, and is standing on Mount Sion with his saints. Earilier we saw one "that looked like a Lamb", yet spoke like a dragon, and he was Satan. So Christ has returned here, and is with the 144,000 sealed, of Chapter seven. Remember that the 144,000 sealed of the tribes never went anywhere, but remained here on earth during the entire time of the Antichrist. Not one of these saints yielded to Satan, nor took his name, nor his number. They did not take the "Mark of the Beast" because they had "their Fathers name in their foreheads". They knew how to identify Satan, and that the first Messiah was the fake.
That marking was placed in their minds back in chapter seven, when God told the "four Spirits of God" to hold their position, until this group could be sealed. Then they were allowed to open the seals. That sealing is in the process today, and many are seeing and understanding the truth of God's Word, as events are going on before our eyes daily.
Zechariah 14:4 (KJV)
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
What day do you think this is?This is the Lord's day,the very start of the millennium........
Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
This is after the millennium........
I study with the Shepherds Chapel
The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.
It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.
Eugene - So much for the scare tactics. My soul is not at stake of how I see the rapture; my salvation is predicated upon Jesus' dying for me, and my believing on Him.
n2thelight- Not meant to be a scare tactic at all,it's just that if you believe in the rapture,there's a very good chance you will fall for the deception of satan pretending to be Christ,that's what the trib is all about,deception............
n2thelight-This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.
Eugene - Let’s just make sure that we realize that this is written to Christians; not heathen.
1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
n2thelight- Yes it is written to Christians,and that's why Paul dosn't want them thinking like the heathen...
n2thelight - I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].
It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father.
Eugene - What happened to John 20:17, Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Are you saying this is after the forty days?
n2thelight-No,this is before....
n2thelight - When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Eugene - Are you saying that if we were to dig up the graves of dead saints we would find no remains? If our spirit is with Him, just what do you think is going to be raised?
n2thelight-only their bones,raised from where? All return to the Father at death,to believe otherwise,is to believe in soul sleep,and that's simply not scriptual.....
n2thelight - I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."
Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.
Eugene - I'm sorry, but I believe you to be wrong.
n2thelight- Which part ?
n2thelight - Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.
Eugene - Are you saying that the last trump is the seventh trumpet?
n2thelight- That's exactly what Im saying,unless you can show me the sounding of an 8th,the 7th is the last......
Eugene - Dear brother, you are determined to make the earth the dwelling place of Jesus during the millennium and I do not believe that. E.g., Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Is this to you the earth? Let's read an explanation of this mount in Hebrews 12:22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
My thoughts.
That's exactly where Christ shall dwell during the millennium........
Revelation 14:1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Si'-on, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
This "Lamb" is Jesus Christ. Christ has returned at this time, and is standing on Mount Sion with his saints. Earilier we saw one "that looked like a Lamb", yet spoke like a dragon, and he was Satan. So Christ has returned here, and is with the 144,000 sealed, of Chapter seven. Remember that the 144,000 sealed of the tribes never went anywhere, but remained here on earth during the entire time of the Antichrist. Not one of these saints yielded to Satan, nor took his name, nor his number. They did not take the "Mark of the Beast" because they had "their Fathers name in their foreheads". They knew how to identify Satan, and that the first Messiah was the fake.
That marking was placed in their minds back in chapter seven, when God told the "four Spirits of God" to hold their position, until this group could be sealed. Then they were allowed to open the seals. That sealing is in the process today, and many are seeing and understanding the truth of God's Word, as events are going on before our eyes daily.
Zechariah 14:4 (KJV)
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
What day do you think this is?This is the Lord's day,the very start of the millennium........
Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
This is after the millennium........
I study with the Shepherds Chapel
Dear n2thelight, we are spreading in so many different directions we're getting nowhere. If you will permit, let’s see if we can dwell on one part of this at a time; we must establish time frames.
Let's note something about the last trump.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
There will be death during the millennium. Isaiah 65:20 . . the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Today we hear graveside sermons: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" Look around at the tears; there is still much sting as our enemy death is still with us.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end (The end of what?), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
My thoughts.
Let's note something about the last trump.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
There will be death during the millennium. Isaiah 65:20 . . the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Today we hear graveside sermons: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" Look around at the tears; there is still much sting as our enemy death is still with us.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end (The end of what?), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
My thoughts.
n2thelight
Member
Hey Eugene
I will first try and show why the last trump is the 7th,and we can go from there.........
I Corinthians 15:52 clearly says that the "last trump"will signal the return of Jesus Christ for His saints.
Regardless of what we think that really means, it is nevertheless a fact that this "last trump" does signal the event.
The problem for those who interpret this according to current end-time theories is this: In the Book of Revelation, there are seven seals, the last of which is comprised of seven trumpets.The seventh of these seven trumpets is the last trump. So if we insist upon a timeline in these seals and trumpets, the last trump comes AFTER all of the other events which the seals and trumps represent. So how can Jesus come for His saints BEFORE events like the great tribulation if the last trump occurs AFTER them?
The problem is inescapable. If the last trump is really the last trump, then there aren't any others after it. And if there aren't any others after it, then the return of Christ for His saints the event the last trump announces must come LAST.Everything else, great tribulation included, must come before it.
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Sinthesis
Member
That's a very persuasive line of reasoning to discredit a pre-trib rapture.
In your opinion, when will this occur; pre or post millennium. To me the last trump is describing the end.n2thelight said:
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies (beast, false prophet, Satan, and death) under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Prior to this Satan is done away with according to Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now the seventh angel sounds at the end of the second woe below, and this is during the tribulation, so to me this does not fit the description of the last trump.
Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
n2thelight
Member
Hello Eugene
In matthew 24 Christ told us everything that must and will happen before His return
Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
Notice even the elect are still here........If anybody should be raptured would it not be His elect?
Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
This is the seventh and final trumpet, from the time that the two witnesses stand to their feet, we are dealing in seconds, and minutes for it all to occur. The third woe comes with the seventh trumpet. All prophecy in the entire Bible dealing with the seventh, and last trumpet happens instantly at this time.
This is the Lord's Day ie,the beginning of the millennium...
Death is satan,he has many names,and the role that he plays for each will be striped until the last which death.....
Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
This is after the tribulation of the deception, after the Antichrist ruled and claimed himself to be God, and after all the events of the first six seals are over; Then Jesus Christ, the Son of man will come to earth in the clouds of heaven, which are all those souls that have lived, died and gone to be with the Lord. Then the true Christ, the true Messiah, who is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world, will come and claim His own, and not one moment before.
Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
This is not the tribulation of God for there are two tribulations, and this tribulation is the tribulation of the deception. This is the tribulation of the locust army, spoken of in the book of Joel. This locust army will so pervert the minds of all men on earth, that the truth of God word will be as a desolate wilderness. It is at this time that the Holy Spirit will speak through the elect, as recorded in Acts 2:6-8. Where when the faithful of Christ were together, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit of God. They left that room and entered the streets, and when they spoke to the multitude, "every man heard in his own language." This was Pentecost, and the Jews came from every part of the world, speaking all the languages of the world.
greatisthelight
Member
A big argument of Post-Tribulation is the fact that majority of early Church fathers eschatology views were Post-Tribbers. Not all, but if someone was premillenial you were almost always going to be Post-Tribber, not Pre-Trib.