The Return of Christ

[Carry_Your_Name]

That is interesting.
However, most people don't know that interpretation and the general belief has the glorious Return as an unexpected and surprising event. This belief simply doesn't match with the detailed Prophesies just prior to and at the Return.
We are told that the 'beast', will have authority over the word for 42 months, or 1260 days. so; to simply count the days from the desecration of the Temple, 2 Thess 2:4, will give us the exact day Jesus will Return.

The many mentions of 3 1/2 years, 42 months and 260 days, all refer to the second half of the final 7 years. The first half is only mentioned in Daniel 9:27...and with that first half spent...... It will be a peaceful time, with no great consequences.

If the Prophesies which mention the Lord coming unexpectedly are carefully studied, in their context and wording, then it should be understood they all refer to the great Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the forthcoming Sixth Seal world changer. Isaiah 29:5-6, Matthew 24:36-44

This is not something that can be "carefully studied" from a linguistic angle, it's a cultural/biblical/historical reference, if you know it you get it immediately, if you don't know it you don't get it.

 

[Elijah7777]

So why do we even care

Because we need to help the people who will be "left behind" to prepare for that time. I am not talking about the people who will be destroyed. I am talking about the righteous who will go from the church age to the kingdom age. The last time this happened was 2,000 years ago when we went from the old to the new covenant.

 

[RandyK]

Because we need to help the people who will be "left behind" to prepare for that time. I am not talking about the people who will be destroyed. I am talking about the righteous who will go from the church age to the kingdom age. The last time this happened was 2,000 years ago when we went from the old to the new covenant.

1st off, the words "left behind" conjure up what I believe to be a false interpretation of "some will be taken and others will be left behind." I believe this refers to the Roman judgment of Jerusalem, when both groups will be judged. Some were taken away into exile, and others were left behind as slaves to till the fields for the Romans.

Since you provide no context for my statement, I'm unwilling to go research to find out what I was talking about. If you wish to respond to something I said, please include more of what was being discussed.

 

[for_his_glory]

See all the reference of trumpet and gathering below, whether you acknowledge the connection or deny it is up to you. No one knows the day or the hour because it's on the first day of the month, which is NOT July first, but somewhere between late September to early October when the new moon appears in Middle East region, that can't be marked on a calendar. You can't even accurately predict when the next new moon will appear because the length of lunar cycle varies.

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.’ (Lev. 23:23-25)

you shall count seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you forty-nine years. Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land. (Lev. 25:8-9; "Yubal" in "Jubilee" literally means trumpet)

He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17)

So many set dates and times of the return of Christ, but these scriptures below teach me to just be prepared ahead of time for no one knows when Jesus will return.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So many set dates and times of the return of Christ, but these scriptures below teach me to just be prepared ahead of time for no one knows when Jesus will return.

Then why was it prophesied in Is. 61:1-3 that He'll return in the "acceptable year of the Lord" on the "day of vengeance"? That's clearly a reference of the Day of Atonement, which is the first day of a jubilee year. But which year is a jubilee year, and which day is the day of atonement? Can you mark that on a calendar? If not, there's no date setting.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”

 

[for_his_glory]

Then why was it prophesied in Is. 61:1-3 that He'll return in the "acceptable year of the Lord" on the "day of vengeance"? That's clearly a reference of the Day of Atonement, which is the first day of a jubilee year. But which year is a jubilee year, and which day is the day of atonement? Can you mark that on a calendar? If not, there's no date setting.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”

Isaiah 40-66 are prophecies of Judah's comfort. Having pronounced Judah's divine condemnation, Isaiah comforts them with God's promises of hope and restoration. The basis for this hope is the sovereignty and majesty of God (40-48). Of the 216 verses in these nine chapters, 115 speak of God's greatness and power. The Creator is contrasted with idols being the creations of men. His sovereign character is Judah's assurance of future restoration. Babylon will indeed carry them off, but Babylon will finally be judged and destroyed and God's people will be released from captivity.

Chapters 49-57 concentrate on the coming Messiah who will be their Savior and suffering servant. This rejected, but exalted One will pay for their iniquities and usher in a kingdom of peace and righteousness throughout the earth. All who acknowledge their sins and trust in Him will be delivered (58-66). In that day Jerusalem will be rebuilt, Israel's borders will be enlarged and the Messiah will reign in Zion. God's people will confess their sins and His enemies will be judged. Peace, prosperity and justice will prevail and God will make all things new.

Isaiah 61:1-11 is all about the advents of the Messiah that all things will be restored and made new again, Rev 21:1-8.

 

[Keraz]

Then why was it prophesied in Is. 61:1-3 that He'll return in the "acceptable year of the Lord" on the "day of vengeance"?

Isaiah 61:2 to proclaim a year of the Lord's favour / and a day of the vengeance of our God.
Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a , but stopped there.
Therefore, the next Prophesied event we can expect will be the great Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal world changer.
Much must take place before the glorious Return.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Isaiah 40-66 are prophecies of Judah's comfort. Having pronounced Judah's divine condemnation, Isaiah comforts them with God's promises of hope and restoration. The basis for this hope is the sovereignty and majesty of God (40-48). Of the 216 verses in these nine chapters, 115 speak of God's greatness and power. The Creator is contrasted with idols being the creations of men. His sovereign character is Judah's assurance of future restoration. Babylon will indeed carry them off, but Babylon will finally be judged and destroyed and God's people will be released from captivity.

Chapters 49-57 concentrate on the coming Messiah who will be their Savior and suffering servant. This rejected, but exalted One will pay for their iniquities and usher in a kingdom of peace and righteousness throughout the earth. All who acknowledge their sins and trust in Him will be delivered (58-66). In that day Jerusalem will be rebuilt, Israel's borders will be enlarged and the Messiah will reign in Zion. God's people will confess their sins and His enemies will be judged. Peace, prosperity and justice will prevail and God will make all things new.

Isaiah 61:1-11 is all about the advents of the Messiah that all things will be restored and made new again, Rev 21:1-8.

That restoration will never come to pass until the return of the true king.

 

[for_his_glory]

That restoration will never come to pass until the return of the true king.

I agree.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[for_his_glory]

Isaiah 61:2 to proclaim a year of the Lord's favour / and a day of the vengeance of our God.
Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a , but stopped there.
Therefore, the next Prophesied event we can expect will be the great Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal world changer.
Much must take place before the glorious Return.

As I understand this is the first four seals are various horses with riders of destruction that are revealed to John. This is not Gods wrath poured out as of yet as His fierce wrath begins with the first trumpet sounding after the breaking of the seventh seal that leads through all events of Gods seven trumpet chastisements and seven vial judgments that are warnings to those who have not repented and remain in disobedience to God. During the time of Gods fierce wrath of those who walk in disobedience He still leaves that door of repentance opened up until the time of Christ return when the door of salvation will be closed forever to those who refuse to repent.

The first four horses and their riders are an outline much like Matthew 24 being an outline of all things which must come first before the return of Christ. Each one represents that of a Roman governed enmity, Romans 8:7, that Satan works through that controls worldly domination as being that same Roman governed system the Pharisees and Scribes held close to as they had much favor from them for they brought the prophets, wise men and scribes before their Counsel to be persecuted and killed as they died a martyr’s death for preaching the Gospel of Christ, Matthew 23:33-39. We will study this system more in Chapter 13.

Jesus opens the seals and proceeds to reveal their meanings to John. The first four seals are that of four horses and what their riders bring with them. The first is false Christ, second to take peace from the earth, third is famine and the fourth is death and hell as found in the grave. Notice how each one is in succession of the other from first to last as already spoken by Christ in His Olivet disclosure in Matthew 24:4-13 as being the beginning of sorrows. There have always been sorrows, but never on a Global scale that will be seen during the timing of each rider of the four horses.

​

 

[Keraz]

Jesus opens the seals and proceeds to reveal their meanings to John. The first four seals are that of four horses and what their riders bring with them. The first is false Christ, second to take peace from the earth, third is famine and the fourth is death and hell as found in the grave. Notice how each one is in succession of the other from first to last as already spoken by Christ in His Olivet disclosure in Matthew 24:4-13 as being the beginning of sorrows. There have always been sorrows, but never on a Global scale that will be seen during the timing of each rider of the four horses.

I disagree.
That the first Four Seals were opened in the first century, is amply shown by the horrible wars, terrible famines, shocking plagues and economic disasters since then. Any much worse and mankind could have been wiped out.

But the proof is the Fifth Seal; all the Christian martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.

It is the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster that Jesus referred to when He said; As it was in the days of Noah, so t shall be when the Son of Man comes.
This does not refer to the glorious Return, as then He will come as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Wait for the Day.... Zephaniah 3:8

 

[for_his_glory]

I disagree.
That the first Four Seals were opened in the first century, is amply shown by the horrible wars, terrible famines, shocking plagues and economic disasters since then. Any much worse and mankind could have been wiped out.

But the proof is the Fifth Seal; all the Christian martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.

It is the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster that Jesus referred to when He said; As it was in the days of Noah, so t shall be when the Son of Man comes.
This does not refer to the glorious Return, as then He will come as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Wait for the Day.... Zephaniah 3:8

You have every right to disagree.

The seven seals that only Jesus is worthy to open span the next fifteen chapters of Revelation. Chapter six only explains the first six seals as in a brief scenario of what is about to take place during the timing of Gods seven trumpet and seven vial chastisements. Hopefully many will come back to God through repentance during the time of His fierce wrath upon those of disobedience as God would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

Jesus spoke to His Disciples in Matthew Chapter twenty four of those things all of us need to be watchful of before His return as no man knows the day nor the hour of His return. It is not until Chapter eight that we see the seventh seal being opened that begins with the seven trumpets and leads up to the seven vial judgments of Gods fierce wrath. The seventh trumpet begins the full explanation of what happens to those who walk in disobedience to God before the great and terrible day of the Lords return as the powers of heaven will be shaken, Joel 2:30, 31; Luke 21:26.

 

[Keraz]

You have every right to disagree.

The seven seals that only Jesus is worthy to open span the next fifteen chapters of Revelation. Chapter six only explains the first six seals as in a brief scenario of what is about to take place during the timing of Gods seven trumpet and seven vial chastisements.

Is the historical fulfilment of the first five Seals, just normal and insignificant?
Is the Fifth Seal not happening today and for the last 2 thousand years?

You are plainly wrong, and this error makes you unaware of the forthcoming Sixth Seal world changer.
Also the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, do not match with what will happen during the Great Tribulation of the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

 

[Elijah7777]

thI believe this refers to the Roman judgment of Jerusalem,

Jesus was answering two questions at the same time. Notice the word AND in this verse. They went from the old covenant to the new covenant and we go from the church age to the kingdom age. The language in Matthew 24 is often seen as dual-layered, addressing both immediate historical events and future eschatological themes. They refer to this as shadow and types.

Matthew 24 3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, AND what will be the sign of Your coming AND of the end of the age?”

Even the word AND is used twice. This ties in with God declares the end from the beginning. He declares the end of the age from the beginning. He watches over His word to perform what He said He would do. (Jeremiah 1:12)

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." (Isaiah 46:10, KJV)

 

[Keraz]

Also the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, do not match with what will happen during the Great Tribulation of the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

Correction; it is the Seals 1 to 4 that do not match with the Great Tribulation, when the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bows will be activated.

 

[RandyK]

Jesus was answering two questions at the same time. Notice the word AND in this verse. They went from the old covenant to the new covenant and we go from the church age to the kingdom age. The language in Matthew 24 is often seen as dual-layered, addressing both immediate historical events and future eschatological themes. They refer to this as shadow and types.

Matthew 24 3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, AND what will be the sign of Your coming AND of the end of the age?”

Even the word AND is used twice. This ties in with God declares the end from the beginning. He declares the end of the age from the beginning. He watches over His word to perform what He said He would do. (Jeremiah 1:12)

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." (Isaiah 46:10, KJV)

I don't do "dual interpretations." There is such a thing as an historically fulfilled prophecy that *alludes* to a greater fulfillment. Many Messianic prophecies are like this, seeming to apply in a more immediate situation but ultimately is fulfilled in Christ.

But Jesus in delivering the Olivet Discourse was pretty cut and dried to me. He spoke, first of all, as a prophet to Israel, explaining their history over the age to come. They would be in tribulation and exile, awaiting their Messiah from heaven.

This is not a dual application, but rather, a statement on Israel that as a nation they would have failed under the Law, and would suffer national punishment for the foreseeable future. This would be an age-long "great tribulation" set off by a Roman "abomination of desolation," who would destroy the "city and the sanctuary" (Dan 7).

 

[deepfaithpraise]

The Lord's Day could also, conceivably, be a strange kind of day known to the Lord, such as we read in Zechariah...

Zech 14.7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

John's Revelation may have taken place on a celestial level in which a day did not have ordinary boundaries or normal meteorological changes.

My own view of 2 Peter 3 is as follows....

2 Pet 3.9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

The OT eschatological pattern indicates that Israel's fulfillment as a nation, and along with it Christian nations, will come when Messiah comes to establish God's Kingdom on earth. This is set out pretty clearly in Dan 7--a passage which forms a major NT point of reference for NT eschatology.

The Son of Man descends from the clouds of heaven to defeat the Beast and to establish God's Kingdom forever. That means Israel would no longer be oppressed by the nations. And that means, in the NT sense, that other nations would experience peace, as well. The thousand year period is not described in OT Prophecy, but is set forth explicitly only in the book of Revelation.

That a period extends beyond the 2nd Coming of Christ is logical because Israel cannot enter into a period of rest from her enemies unless she continues to exist in history. And so, we are given a thousand year period in Rev 20.

The difference between Christ's Coming to establish God's Kingdom on earth and the time when there is a new creation appears in Revelation to be the difference between the beginning and the end of the Millennium, roughly. Satan's rebellion at the end of the Millennium is not given a precise duration.

There is confusion between the prophetic descriptions of the deliverance of God's People because there is the deliverance of national Israel at the end of the present age, and there is also the deliverance of God's People at the end of the Millennium.

In the same way, there is a judgment of the wicked, and of Gog and Magog, at the end of this present age, as well as at the end of the Millennium. The judgment of the wicked at the end of this present age involves a nuclear death at Armageddon, I suppose, but does not involve the resurrection of the wicked. The resurrection of the wicked only takes place at the end of the Millennial Age.

These things are highly speculative because we are not given but one map of this in Scriptures--perhaps because it does not enjoy a high level of importance in the present age. So we should share our views, but with a sense of apprehension.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this—it’s such a fascinating topic, and I love how you’re wrestling with the Scriptures to piece it together. Your point about the “Lord’s Day” being a unique kind of day, like in Zechariah, really got me thinking. It’s a great reminder that God’s ways and timing often go beyond our normal understanding, which keeps us humble as we study these things.

I appreciate how you tie the hope of Israel’s restoration to the bigger picture of God’s Kingdom through Jesus. It’s comforting to think of that ultimate peace, not just for Israel but for all who trust in Christ. Your take on the Millennium as a time for Israel to rest from enemies makes sense in that framework, and it’s cool to see how you connect the dots from Daniel to Revelation.

I totally agree that we’re stepping into speculative territory here, and your call to share views with humility is spot-on. For me, the key is clinging to the certainty of Christ’s return and the promise of a new creation, free from sin and suffering. It’s like an anchor for our faith, even when the details get fuzzy.

 

[for_his_glory]

Is the historical fulfilment of the first five Seals, just normal and insignificant?
Is the Fifth Seal not happening today and for the last 2 thousand years?

You are plainly wrong, and this error makes you unaware of the forthcoming Sixth Seal world changer.
Also the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, do not match with what will happen during the Great Tribulation of the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

Please do not tell others they are wrong because you do not agree with them as that is very rude.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The sixth seal was opened and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair (sackcloth was usually course goat hair), and the moon became as the color of blood. Joel 2:30, 31 and Luke 21:25 forewarns us of what will happen as signs we will see before the great and terrible day of the Lord as in being Gods great wrath before the return of Jesus.

The war we read about in the fourth seal is Global war as these armies will use nuclear and chemical weaponry that not only kills a fourth of the people living on earth, but also creates environmental changes on the earth’s surface and deeper in the earth’s core. The environmental changes that will take place deeper into the earth’s core will activate vault lines causing great earthquakes and volcanoes to erupt.

When you put the effects of nuclear and chemical bombs hitting the ground this will cause the plates of the earth to shift causing earthquakes and volcanoes to erupt. This will produce a massive amount of dust particles to fill the air blocking out sunlight making it appear that the sun has been darkened. The dust particles also scatter blue and green light away in the atmosphere, but red light passes through more easily causing the moon to appear blood red.

The stars that fall from heaven are likened unto a fig tree that loses its figs before they are ripe when the tree is shaken by a mighty wind. This is in reference to those who call themselves Christian, but by name only as they have not the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, Matthew 7:21. The mighty wind that is shaking this tree is Satan as being the host in heaven that will be punished, Isaiah 24:21; 34:4. Satan will cause a great falling away before the return of Jesus, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as he uses his false prophets who think themselves higher than those they teach as they lord superior over their congregations as in the Pharisees that Jesus condemned in Matthew 23:13-38.

 

[Elijah7777]

This would be an age-long "great tribulation" set off by a Roman "abomination of desolation," who would destroy the "city and the sanctuary" (Dan 7).

So what does this have to do with us today, 2,000 years later?

 

[RandyK]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this—it’s such a fascinating topic, and I love how you’re wrestling with the Scriptures to piece it together. Your point about the “Lord’s Day” being a unique kind of day, like in Zechariah, really got me thinking. It’s a great reminder that God’s ways and timing often go beyond our normal understanding, which keeps us humble as we study these things.

I appreciate how you tie the hope of Israel’s restoration to the bigger picture of God’s Kingdom through Jesus. It’s comforting to think of that ultimate peace, not just for Israel but for all who trust in Christ. Your take on the Millennium as a time for Israel to rest from enemies makes sense in that framework, and it’s cool to see how you connect the dots from Daniel to Revelation.

I totally agree that we’re stepping into speculative territory here, and your call to share views with humility is spot-on. For me, the key is clinging to the certainty of Christ’s return and the promise of a new creation, free from sin and suffering. It’s like an anchor for our faith, even when the details get fuzzy.

2 Cor 12.1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.
When the Apostle John saw visions in the book of Revelation he was "in the Spirit on the Lord's day."

Rev 1.10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.

Some people think this reference to "the Lord's Day" indicates either the Sabbath Day or Sunday, the Resurrection Day. However, the Apostle John was no longer under Sabbath regulations, and Sunday had hardly been institutionalized in a State Church, since it didn't exist yet.

It is pure speculation on my part, but I happen to believe that John was referring to the unique "Day of the Lord" in which he could see visions without the limitations of time or space.

And you can see above that Paul had a similar experience when he was taken to the 3rd heaven to experience revelations from the Lord. He did not know if he was physically present and was unable to describe what he saw in normal language.

I think it was very similar to what John experienced because much of what he saw seemed to transcend any normal way to express it, as well as unable to establish any real chronology among the visions. I just wanted to show you the similarity of experience between Paul and John here.

We see this in some of the Prophets, as well--in particular the apocalyptic-type Prophets, who spoke things in such mystical, symbolic fashion, perhaps because they also could not be constrained by normal communications to describe heavenly realities that are best not put into a timeline. We also see it in the Prophets when they refer to heaven or to angels because these things may be virtually inexpressible unless symbolic language is used.

Thanks for your kind words. I feel much safer to admit I'm speculating, out of respect for God's word.