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The Rich Man and Lazarus, a Parable or a literal account

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Originally Posted by Agape,

What do you mean by "human(666) religion"?

Originally Posted by JCitoL,

the unrighteous religion(-s) based on human doctrines and ordinances unlike the right faith which is based entirely on the Commandments of the true God and Jesus

Mark 7:6-8 "This people(i.e. these spiritual servants/workers) honoureth me with their lips, but their heart(i.e. but their faith/spiritual ministry) is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men"


You're right on the money about this JC. The "beast" is "man". Rather than God creating man in His image, "man creates God in his own image" - which is called: the Image Of The Beast (i.e. - the Image Of Man).

The Church has proven over the years to be capable of many degrees of error, failing, and apostasy. But by far their worst error is their doctrine of eternal torment, which reveals and exemplifies the absolute Satanic rebellion of the Church, and testifies to how far the Church is fallen.



Revelation 14:8 "And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
 
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Oh my goodness. I cannot believe what I read in this forum sometimes. People will tear the Scriptures to pieces to hold on to their idols of the heart; especially their 'beloved' demonic abomination: eternal torment!



The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. Jesus is in the midst of teaching five parables, beginning in Luke 15:3 with the parable of the lost sheep. Following that are the parables of the lost coin, the prodigal son, the unjust administrator, and Lazarus and the Rich Man. The purpose of these parables is to teach the Pharisees a lesson about how they treat publicans and sinners. If you take the Rich Man parable literally (which many in here apparently do), you have to throw out everything the rest of the scriptures have to say about death. And that's just the beginning.


Is Lazarus literally sitting on the bosom of Abraham? Why not, if this is literal? In the parable, the Rich Man is damned because he was rich and wore fine things. Lazarus is sitting on Abraham's bosom simply because he got bad things in this life. Is there anything at all here about the Gospel, or about faith? If you're going to make this parable the criteria for either being consciously tormented in flames or sitting on Abraham's bosom for eternity, then you’re going to have to base salvation on wealth, not faith. What is the criteria for Salvation in this context? Physical disadvantage only? There is nothing whatsoever about faith here.

Since this is a five-fold parable, beginning in chapter 15, why don't you make the Prodigal Son in 15:11-32 literal? At the end of the parable, the father says, "This, my son, was dead." Why don’t you take that death literally? Using your system of interpreting parables literally, you can use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that, after people die, they go off to a far country, spend all their money on hookers and booze, then end up in a pig pen eating cob... no corn.



The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man has become a theological passport to the mutilation of hundreds of verses of Scripture. Next to the gross error in translating the Greek aion (a period of time with a beginning and an end) into an English eternity (no time at all, neither having a beginning nor an ending), I know of no greater misrepresentation of any section of Scripture than this parable. And the multitudes have no desire to know the truth because they refuse to give up their precious idols in their hearts; which causes them to stumble:

Ezekiel 14:3 "....they have set up their idols in their hearts, and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity. Should I let Myself be inquired of at all by them?




Anyone who denies this is a parable errs not knowing the Scriptures. Why? Because Jesus spoke ONLY in parables among the multitudes (including the Pharisees) of people who followed Him wherever He went.

Matthew 13:34 "All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the multitudes, and apart from a parable He spoke NOTHING to them..."


As the verse above tells us, EVERYTHING that was spoken to the multitudes was done so in parables: "apart from A PARABLE He spoke NOTHING to them."



Jesus spoke in parables so that the multitudes would NOT understand Him:

Matthew 13:10 "Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."



Not even the apostles understood these parables. Jesus had to explain their meaning to them in private (Matthew 13:18, 36; Matthew 15:15).



The fact that Jesus spoke to the masses in parables ONLY, ought to be sufficient Scriptural evidence to anyone that Lazarus And The Rich Man is a parable, geez! :wall


Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar!

Yes, I agree!

Let God be true! Let the scriptures represent truth!


Here is some truth for you and your "perception" of who Jesus was talking to.

It certainly wasn't the multitudes, that's for sure!

Luke 16:1 - For the context:

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods....

Luke 16:14 - For the context:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes, He was speaking to His disciples and the Pharisee's overheard and butted in to what Jesus was teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

The fact that you can't see this from these scriptures is alarming at best, yet you have based your whole "theory" on a fact that simply does not exist!


  • 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.- No parable

  • 16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. - No parable

  • 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
No parable

  • 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.- No parable


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "



The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!



JLB
 
Yes, I agree!

Let God be true! Let the scriptures represent truth!


Here is some truth for you and your "perception" of who Jesus was talking to.

It certainly wasn't the multitudes, that's for sure!

Luke 16:1 - For the context:

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods....

Luke 16:14 - For the context:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes, He was speaking to His disciples and the Pharisee's overheard and butted in to what Jesus was teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

The fact that you can't see this from these scriptures is alarming at best, yet you have based your whole "theory" on a fact that simply does not exist!



  • 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.- No parable



  • 16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. - No parable



  • 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

No parable


  • 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.- No parable



19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "



The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!



JLB
Good Post! JLB
 
Yes, JLB made a good post. I personally believe the account of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk.16) to be literal. It begins with the words "there was a CERTAIN rich man", that sounds literal, however some actural parables also have the word "certain". BUT, what we must not forget is that parables teach, and if Lk.16 should be a parable it teaches that hell is not a place we want to go. Lets not let the debate of whether its a "parable" or "literal" derail us from the teaching of Lk.16.
 
It begins with the words "there was a CERTAIN rich man", that sounds literal, however some actural parables also have the word "certain".
That's right. You find the same introduction in Matthew 21:33, Luke 7:41; 10:30;14:16;15:11; 16:1; 19:12

Lets not let the debate of whether its a "parable" or "literal" derail us from the teaching of Lk.16.
Agreed! Amen! ;)
 
Jesus spoke ONLY in parables among the multitudes (including the Pharisees) of people who followed Him wherever He went.
I don't think the Lord used parables "only" with the multitude. He used them in private with the disciples too.
In Matthew 13:36 Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house, which means that the parables in Matthew 13:44-52 were for the disciples only. He actually explained His previous parables and added four more (Parables of the hidden treasure (Mt 13:44); the pearl of great price (Mt 13:45-46); the dragnet (Mt 13: 47-50) and the householder (Mt 13:51-52).
 
Yes, I agree!

Let God be true! Let the scriptures represent truth!


Here is some truth for you and your "perception" of who Jesus was talking to.

It certainly wasn't the multitudes, that's for sure!

Luke 16:1 - For the context:

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods....

Luke 16:14 - For the context:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes, He was speaking to His disciples and the Pharisee's overheard and butted in to what Jesus was teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

The fact that you can't see this from these scriptures is alarming at best, yet you have based your whole "theory" on a fact that simply does not exist!


  • 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.- No parable

  • 16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. - No parable

  • 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
No parable

  • 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.- No parable


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "



The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!



JLB

If you really believe this to be literal then perhaps you would expound your views on this portion of the parable...

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them away from dead people, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, not even if one rose from among dead people."

So we should be taught Moses and the Prophets and if we will not listen to them we would also not listen to Christ (you know, the one who rose from the dead).
 
Jesus lived under the law, Gal.4:4, the incident of Lk.16 was under the period of that law, which was ALL they had. Paul said something about "rightly dividing the word of truth.''
 
Jesus didn't live under the law the same as the people did.. He lived under the law the way God intended. Jesus ,seems, to me understood the spirit of the law. IMO Paul tries repeatedly to get folks to understand the spirit of the law....
 
Hi Reba

Why try to get around it? Gal.4:4 plainly says "But when the fulness of the time was come,God sent forth his Son, MADE OF A WOMAN, MADE UNDER THE LAW" (emp.mine, webb). Jesus was born, lived and died on the cross, ALL under the law of Moses. The law was nailed to the cross, thats when the law was abolished, see for example Col.2:13-17. Jesus was the ONLY One Who kept the law perfectly.
 
Jesus lived under the law, Gal.4:4, the incident of Lk.16 was under the period of that law, which was ALL they had. Paul said something about "rightly dividing the word of truth.''

Yep, I believe that he did...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid [let it not be]: Nay, we establish the law.

Regardless, Christ said to hear Moses and the Prophets. So I guess what you are saying is to separate out the part that you want to hear and discard the part that you don't?
 
I don't think the Lord used parables "only" with the multitude. He used them in private with the disciples too.

Matthew 13:34 "Jesus spoke all these things to the multitudes in parables; and without a parable he spoke NOTHING unto them."
 
Yep, I believe that he did...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid [let it not be]: Nay, we establish the law.

Regardless, Christ said to hear Moses and the Prophets. So I guess what you are saying is to separate out the part that you want to hear and discard the part that you don't?

Rom.3:27: "What law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Vs. 28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith witout the deeds of the law."

"But before the faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" Gal.3: 23-27.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that only the Jew was under the law, never the gentile. Nontheless, you question I pick and choose what I want and do not want of the law. I shall tell you my relation to that law of which only the Jew was under, I Cor. 10:6 is an example and the scripture plainly states in another "whatsoever was written aforetime was written or our learning and admonition that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."
 
Rom.3:27: "What law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Vs. 28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith witout the deeds of the law."

"But before the faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" Gal.3: 23-27.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that only the Jew was under the law, never the gentile. Nontheless, you question I pick and choose what I want and do not want of the law. I shall tell you my relation to that law of which only the Jew was under, I Cor. 10:6 is an example and the scripture plainly states in another "whatsoever was written aforetime was written or our learning and admonition that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

What Paul says is additive, a man is not justified by keeping the law, but the law is not done away either. The Law is to be obeyed...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Now no one keeps it perfectly, we all sin so...

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

God has not done away with His Law, He has given us the perfect sacrifice to pay the price for us breaking the Law.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

No, we must strive to obey God and when we falter and slip, Christ lovingly applies His blood in our stead. Stating that the Law is done away, (remember that sin is transgressing the law) cheapens the sacrifice of Christ. If there is no law, there is no sin...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

And if there is no sin, then why do we need a Savior? There is Law, there is sin and we desparately need a Savior.
 
Matthew 13:34 "Jesus spoke all these things to the multitudes in parables; and without a parable he spoke NOTHING unto them."
Yes, I saw this scripture you quoted in a previous post, but the point I was making is that the Lord used parables when talking to the disciples too. ;)
 
It is evident John 8:32 confuses the law of Moses with the law of faith. They are two different laws.
 
If you really believe this to be literal then perhaps you would expound your views on this portion of the parable...

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them away from dead people, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, not even if one rose from among dead people."

So we should be taught Moses and the Prophets and if we will not listen to them we would also not listen to Christ (you know, the one who rose from the dead).


If you really believe this to be literal then perhaps you would expound your views on this portion of the parable...
Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." Luke 24:44

Everything Moses wrote and David wrote was about the eternal life that God would provide for us through His Son!

There I expounded on my view of what Jesus said in the literal story of the rich man and Lazarus.

Now I will ask you to tell us where the explanation to the "parable of The rich man and Lazarus" is.

Or maybe you might like to explain the meaning to us of what each "symbolic" thing in this "parable" represents.

JLB
 
Matthew 13:34 "Jesus spoke all these things to the multitudes in parables; and without a parable he spoke NOTHING unto them."

As it has clearly been shown to you, Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes here.


Here is some truth for you and your "perception" of who Jesus was talking to.

It certainly wasn't the multitudes, that's for sure!

Luke 16:1 - For the context:

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods....

Luke 16:14 - For the context:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes, He was speaking to His disciples and the Pharisee's overheard and butted in to what Jesus was teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

The fact that you can't see this from these scriptures is alarming at best, yet you have based your whole "theory" on a fact that simply does not exist!


  • 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.- No parable

  • 16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. - No parable

  • 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
No parable

  • 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.- No parable


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "



The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!

JLB
 
The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!


JLB

So if it is to be taken literally, as you demand then take this literally...

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
And a literal bosom?

The parable loses much of its significant meaning when taken too literally. As an example, look up the meaning of the name "Lazarus".

the meaning is the same as the Lazarus in John 11, (Definition: Lazarus = "whom God helps")

So your point is?

So the point is that if we only look at Lazarus as a literal individual, as opposed to a representative of those whom God helps, then we lose the interpretation that condemns the prosperity gospel.

Among other meanings...

And a literal bosom?
 

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