The Rich Man and Lazarus, a Parable or a literal account

[JLB]

So if it is to be taken literally, as you demand then take this literally...

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Again, Moses and the Prophets teach of Christ.

Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." Luke 24:44


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or a literal account?

I believe it's parable but not about hell which is the common understanding. Looking at the context Jesus is chastising the Pharisees. He gives three different parables, first is the parable of the Prodigal son, then the unfaithful steward, then Lazarus and the rich man. I believe they all have a common theme that Jesus is relaying to the Pharisees.

 

[John 8:32]

Again, Moses and the Prophets teach of Christ.

Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." Luke 24:44


JLB

They also teach obedience to the Commandments, Statutes and Judgments.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, I agree!

Let God be true! Let the scriptures represent truth!


Here is some truth for you and your "perception" of who Jesus was talking to.

It certainly wasn't the multitudes, that's for sure!

Luke 16:1 - For the context:

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods....

Luke 16:14 - For the context:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes, He was speaking to His disciples and the Pharisee's overheard and butted in to what Jesus was teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

The fact that you can't see this from these scriptures is alarming at best, yet you have based your whole "theory" on a fact that simply does not exist!

• 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.- No parable

• 16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. - No parable

• 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

No parable

• 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.- No parable

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "



The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!



JLB

Hi JBL,

I used to think the same thing. However, I had to rethink this. What purpose is there for Jesus to interject this in the middle of His discussion. In the context He's not talking about an afterlife, why would He sudden interject that idea. Secondly, I've come to learn that If this speaking of an afterlife it completely contradicts "all" of the OT teaching on the creation and death of man.

 

[JLB]

Hi JBL,

I used to think the same thing. However, I had to rethink this. What purpose is there for Jesus to interject this in the middle of His discussion. In the context He's not talking about an afterlife, why would He sudden interject that idea. Secondly, I've come to learn that If this speaking of an afterlife it completely contradicts "all" of the OT teaching on the creation and death of man.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' Luke 16:29-31

Jesus was teaching his disciples, the Pharisee's butted into the teaching because they didn't like what Jesus was teaching... because they were lovers of money.

Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. v.14

The common thought of the day was that if you were poor you were cursed.
If you were rich then you were blessed.

Jesus gave this example to bring truth and clarity to all.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

You are entitled to your opinion.

Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' Luke 16:29-31

Jesus was teaching his disciples, the Pharisee's butted into the teaching because they didn't like what Jesus was teaching... because they were lovers of money.

Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. v.14

The common thought of the day was that if you were poor you were cursed.
If you were rich then you were blessed.

Jesus gave this example to bring truth and clarity to all.


JLB

How does that bear on your understanding of the parable?

 

[Osgiliath]

How does that bear on your understanding of the parable?

This is common among "carnal babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) who are "hell-bent" on well... being "hell-bent." Anything to promote their beloved eternal torture chamber for God's own children; as if Jesus would be so petty with regard to anything He spoke.

Lazarus (Hebrew "Lazarus" = Elazar or "Eliezer" from 'el' [God] and 'azar' = [HELP]) is a Gentile, and represents the whole of the Gentiles in the parable:

• Genesis 15:2-3 "And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir."

In the previous chapter (Genesis 13:14-17) God had already promised great land and possessions to Abram's seed. But Abram had no seed.

Abram told God that since he had no son, his chief steward, Eliezer, would be his heir and inherit all that was his.


In the Old Covenant, as a Gentile, all one could ever hope for are the spiritual "crumbs" that fell from the Rich Man's (Jews) table, but in the book of Mark we read of "the faith of the Gentiles":

• Mark 7:26-29 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter."

Not in all Israel did our Lord find such faith as in these "GENTILE DOGS!" But "Judah" (the Jews) gets all the blessings while the "Gentile" dogs get the crumbs?


What was Christ's response to this great faith by the Centurion?

• Matthew 8:11-12 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and the west [Gentiles], and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of Heaven, but the children of the kingdom [Judah--the Jews] shall be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Christ is not telling us that "Jews" from the East and "Jews" from the West will sit down with Abraham, but that the "Jews" shall be cast out." That would be contradictory.

It's the "Jews" who are the "children of the kingdom" who are "cast out." And those from the East and West are "GENTILES." Christ is telling us who these "many" are because He is commenting on the faith that God has given to this Centurion Gentile.




So we find "Lazarus" [Gk: helpless] begging for crumbs from a rich man's table. Lazarus personifies something much greater than one single beggar in the street.

Lazarus [Eliezer] was: "...cast at his [Rich Man's] gate [portal]..."



Judah had FIVE BROTHERS (full) brothers, as did the Rich Man.

• Genesis 35:23 "The sons of Leah; [1] Reuben; Jacob's firstborn, and [2] Simeon, and [3] Levi, and [4] "Judah", and [5] Issachar, and [6] Zebulun."

• Genesis 30:20 "And Leah said ... 'now will my husband be pleased to dwell with me; for I have born him six sons.'"

And in Luke we read:

• Luke 16:28 "For I [the Rich Man] have FIVE BRETHREN ; that he may testify unto them"

It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The court of the Gentiles." (a GREAT GULF).

Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go. Though designated as "proselytes," they were treated as "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."

• Ephesians 2:13-18 "Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you [Gentiles], who once are far off are become near by the blood of Christ. For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier [GREAT GULF] ... He brings the evangel of peace to you [Gentiles] ... for through Him we both [Jews and Gentiles] have had the access, in one spirit to the Father"

And so today, the Gentiles don't have to stand outside the gate, or be separated by a barrier (GREAT GULF), or stay in their own court, and wait for handouts. They have direct access to God.


And who has been preaching the Evangel for the past two thousand years? The Jews? No. It has been the Gentiles that have translated the Scriptures into nearly every language on earth. It is very rare to find Jews accepting Christ as the Messiah. And that's why we find Lazarus [Eliezer--the Gentiles] in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich Man [the Jews] engulfed in flames of Anti-Semitism for the past two thousand years.


This "PARABLE" has NOTHING to do with the afterlife whatsoever! This "parable" also has absolutely NOTHING to do with an eternal, LITERAL, mythological torture chamber. That's primitive, savage, PAGAN lore that has been fused with Christianity.


The parable is about Judah's (the Rich Man) inheritance being given to The Gentiles (Lazarus), because Judah rejected the One (Christ) who would be RAISED FROM THE DEAD.

• Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they [the Jews] hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead [Christ]." (and they still have not been persuaded)

 

[Butch5]

This is common among "carnal babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) who are "hell-bent" on well... being "hell-bent." Anything to promote their beloved eternal torture chamber for God's own children; as if Jesus would be so petty with regard to anything He spoke.

Lazarus (Hebrew "Lazarus" = Elazar or "Eliezer" from 'el' [God] and 'azar' = [HELP]) is a Gentile, and represents the whole of the Gentiles in the parable:

• Genesis 15:2-3 "And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir."

In the previous chapter (Genesis 13:14-17) God had already promised great land and possessions to Abram's seed. But Abram had no seed.

Abram told God that since he had no son, his chief steward, Eliezer, would be his heir and inherit all that was his.


In the Old Covenant, as a Gentile, all one could ever hope for are the spiritual "crumbs" that fell from the Rich Man's (Jews) table, but in the book of Mark we read of "the faith of the Gentiles":

• Mark 7:26-29 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter."

Not in all Israel did our Lord find such faith as in these "GENTILE DOGS!" But "Judah" (the Jews) gets all the blessings while the "Gentile" dogs get the crumbs?


What was Christ's response to this great faith by the Centurion?

• Matthew 8:11-12 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and the west [Gentiles], and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of Heaven, but the children of the kingdom [Judah--the Jews] shall be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Christ is not telling us that "Jews" from the East and "Jews" from the West will sit down with Abraham, but that the "Jews" shall be cast out." That would be contradictory.

It's the "Jews" who are the "children of the kingdom" who are "cast out." And those from the East and West are "GENTILES." Christ is telling us who these "many" are because He is commenting on the faith that God has given to this Centurion Gentile.




So we find "Lazarus" [Gk: helpless] begging for crumbs from a rich man's table. Lazarus personifies something much greater than one single beggar in the street.

Lazarus [Eliezer] was: "...cast at his [Rich Man's] gate [portal]..."



Judah had FIVE BROTHERS (full) brothers, as did the Rich Man.

• Genesis 35:23 "The sons of Leah; [1] Reuben; Jacob's firstborn, and [2] Simeon, and [3] Levi, and [4] "Judah", and [5] Issachar, and [6] Zebulun."

• Genesis 30:20 "And Leah said ... 'now will my husband be pleased to dwell with me; for I have born him six sons.'"

And in Luke we read:

• Luke 16:28 "For I [the Rich Man] have FIVE BRETHREN ; that he may testify unto them"

It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The court of the Gentiles." (a GREAT GULF).

Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go. Though designated as "proselytes," they were treated as "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."

• Ephesians 2:13-18 "Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you [Gentiles], who once are far off are become near by the blood of Christ. For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier [GREAT GULF] ... He brings the evangel of peace to you [Gentiles] ... for through Him we both [Jews and Gentiles] have had the access, in one spirit to the Father"

And so today, the Gentiles don't have to stand outside the gate, or be separated by a barrier (GREAT GULF), or stay in their own court, and wait for handouts. They have direct access to God.


And who has been preaching the Evangel for the past two thousand years? The Jews? No. It has been the Gentiles that have translated the Scriptures into nearly every language on earth. It is very rare to find Jews accepting Christ as the Messiah. And that's why we find Lazarus [Eliezer--the Gentiles] in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich Man [the Jews] engulfed in flames of Anti-Semitism for the past two thousand years.


This "PARABLE" has NOTHING to do with the afterlife whatsoever! This "parable" also has absolutely NOTHING to do with an eternal, LITERAL, mythological torture chamber. That's primitive, savage, PAGAN lore that has been fused with Christianity.


The parable is about Judah's (the Rich Man) inheritance being given to The Gentiles (Lazarus), because Judah rejected the One (Christ) who would be RAISED FROM THE DEAD.

• Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they [the Jews] hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead [Christ]." (and they still have not been persuaded)

I agree totally with your interpretation of the passage and I agree it's not about the afterlife or hell. I'm not sure about hell being a pagan idea only but I'm still working on that. Great post!

 

[Sinthesis]

This is common among "carnal babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) who are "hell-bent" on well... being "hell-bent." Anything to promote their beloved eternal torture chamber for God's own children; as if Jesus would be so petty with regard to anything He spoke.

Lazarus (Hebrew "Lazarus" = Elazar or "Eliezer" from 'el' [God] and 'azar' = [HELP]) is a Gentile, and represents the whole of the Gentiles in the parable:

• Genesis 15:2-3 "And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir."

In the previous chapter (Genesis 13:14-17) God had already promised great land and possessions to Abram's seed. But Abram had no seed.

Abram told God that since he had no son, his chief steward, Eliezer, would be his heir and inherit all that was his.


In the Old Covenant, as a Gentile, all one could ever hope for are the spiritual "crumbs" that fell from the Rich Man's (Jews) table, but in the book of Mark we read of "the faith of the Gentiles":

• Mark 7:26-29 "The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter."

Not in all Israel did our Lord find such faith as in these "GENTILE DOGS!" But "Judah" (the Jews) gets all the blessings while the "Gentile" dogs get the crumbs?


What was Christ's response to this great faith by the Centurion?

• Matthew 8:11-12 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and the west [Gentiles], and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of Heaven, but the children of the kingdom [Judah--the Jews] shall be cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Christ is not telling us that "Jews" from the East and "Jews" from the West will sit down with Abraham, but that the "Jews" shall be cast out." That would be contradictory.

It's the "Jews" who are the "children of the kingdom" who are "cast out." And those from the East and West are "GENTILES." Christ is telling us who these "many" are because He is commenting on the faith that God has given to this Centurion Gentile.




So we find "Lazarus" [Gk: helpless] begging for crumbs from a rich man's table. Lazarus personifies something much greater than one single beggar in the street.

Lazarus [Eliezer] was: "...cast at his [Rich Man's] gate [portal]..."



Judah had FIVE BROTHERS (full) brothers, as did the Rich Man.

• Genesis 35:23 "The sons of Leah; [1] Reuben; Jacob's firstborn, and [2] Simeon, and [3] Levi, and [4] "Judah", and [5] Issachar, and [6] Zebulun."

• Genesis 30:20 "And Leah said ... 'now will my husband be pleased to dwell with me; for I have born him six sons.'"

And in Luke we read:

• Luke 16:28 "For I [the Rich Man] have FIVE BRETHREN ; that he may testify unto them"

It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The court of the Gentiles." (a GREAT GULF).

Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go. Though designated as "proselytes," they were treated as "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."

• Ephesians 2:13-18 "Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you [Gentiles], who once are far off are become near by the blood of Christ. For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier [GREAT GULF] ... He brings the evangel of peace to you [Gentiles] ... for through Him we both [Jews and Gentiles] have had the access, in one spirit to the Father"

And so today, the Gentiles don't have to stand outside the gate, or be separated by a barrier (GREAT GULF), or stay in their own court, and wait for handouts. They have direct access to God.


And who has been preaching the Evangel for the past two thousand years? The Jews? No. It has been the Gentiles that have translated the Scriptures into nearly every language on earth. It is very rare to find Jews accepting Christ as the Messiah. And that's why we find Lazarus [Eliezer--the Gentiles] in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich Man [the Jews] engulfed in flames of Anti-Semitism for the past two thousand years.


This "PARABLE" has NOTHING to do with the afterlife whatsoever! This "parable" also has absolutely NOTHING to do with an eternal, LITERAL, mythological torture chamber. That's primitive, savage, PAGAN lore that has been fused with Christianity.


The parable is about Judah's (the Rich Man) inheritance being given to The Gentiles (Lazarus), because Judah rejected the One (Christ) who would be RAISED FROM THE DEAD.

• Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they [the Jews] hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead [Christ]." (and they still have not been persuaded)

An interesting interpretation if the goal is to condemn all Jews.
However, it ultimately fails because:

• Lazarus was Jewish, just like the unnamed rich man
• Eliezer was supplanted as Abrams heir
• Jesus (Jewish even by the standard of those who insist only the tribe of Judah is Jewish) is the heir
• Another "Lazarus" (also Jewish) was raised by Jesus from the dead

 

[JLB]

I agree totally with your interpretation of the passage and I agree it's not about the afterlife or hell. I'm not sure about hell being a pagan idea only but I'm still working on that. Great post!

I see, so Abraham and Moses and Lazarus and the rich man are "really" not dead or asleep in your perception?

Do you know just how twisted that sounds.


JLB

 

[Osgiliath]

I see, so Abraham and Moses and Lazarus and the rich man are "really" not dead or asleep in your perception?

Do you know just how twisted that sounds.

JLB

JLB, read the post again slowly. Abraham, Moses, The Rich Man, etc. being dead or alive has nothing to do with it. A parable is a "similitude" and the "physical" participants represent "spiritual" principles. Of course Abraham and Moses are dead. They died many centuries before Jesus spoke the parable. But the Rich Man "represents" Judah (the Jews who rejected the One who would be raised from the dead = Christ), and Lazarus "represents" the Gentiles (those to whom the "proverbial Gospel torch" would be passed).

Just read it slowly, and look up all of the Scriptural passages. The "parable" has nothing to do with the afterlife, or Heaven an Hell. The parable is about The Jews (the Rich Man's) inheritance being given to The Gentiles (Lazarus), because The Jews rejected The One (Christ) who would be RAISED FROM THE DEAD.

• Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they [the Jews] hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead [Christ]." (and they still have not been persuaded)

JLB, it is impossible for the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man to be literal anyway. Here is the Scriptural proof:

• John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Jesus said "NO ONE has ever ascended up to heaven...."

This Scripture especially applies to the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man; due to the fact that Christ was still on Earth when the parable was given. How could Lazarus have ascended to Heaven if Jesus plainly said NO ONE has ascended up to Heaven?

It has nothing to do with an eternal torture chamber. Jesus in all of His wisdom was speaking of something far more significant than a petty, crude illustration which compares the bliss of Heaven vs. the horror of Hell.

Originally Posted By Sinthesis,

An interesting interpretation if the goal is to condemn all Jews

Your mind must also be pre-occupied with the fables which speak of our "loving" God's cosmic crock pot. You missed the entire point. This has nothing to do with condemning ANY Jews, other than a postponement of their inheritance:

• Matthew 20:16 "So the last shall be first, and the first shall be last."

Judah's inheritance will be given to her when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in":

• Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
  [*]Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

When shall ALL Israel be saved? When is the time when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and then ALL Israel shall be saved?" The Scriptures tell us, we need not guess:

• Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou [Judah] and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."

Yes, unfortunately for all of you hell-fire and damnation advocates who thought those of Sodom would be burned alive forever and ever, the Scriptures tell us otherwise above. Those of Sodom will return to their former estate.


When Sodom is returned to her former estate (comes up in resurrection) that will be when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in", and ALL Israel (Samaria and her daughters, and Judah and her daughters) will be saved.

All the doctrines of men to the contrary will not change the Word of God. That is when "ALL Israel will be saved."

 

[JLB]

JLB, read the post again slowly. Abraham, Moses, The Rich Man, etc. being dead or alive has nothing to do with it. A parable is a "similitude" and the "physical" participants represent "spiritual" principles. Of course Abraham and Moses are dead. They died many centuries before Jesus spoke the parable. But the Rich Man "represents" Judah (the Jews who rejected the One who would be raised from the dead = Christ), and Lazarus "represents" the Gentiles (those to whom the "proverbial Gospel torch" would be passed).

Just read it slowly, and look up all of the Scriptural passages. The "parable" has nothing to do with the afterlife, or Heaven an Hell. The parable is about The Jews (the Rich Man's) inheritance being given to The Gentiles (Lazarus), because The Jews rejected The One (Christ) who would be RAISED FROM THE DEAD.

• Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they [the Jews] hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead [Christ]." (and they still have not been persuaded)

JLB, it is impossible for the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man to be literal anyway. Here is the Scriptural proof:

• John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Jesus said "NO ONE has ever ascended up to heaven...."

This Scripture especially applies to the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man; due to the fact that Christ was still on Earth when the parable was given. How could Lazarus have ascended to Heaven if Jesus plainly said NO ONE has ascended up to Heaven?

It has nothing to do with an eternal torture chamber. Jesus in all of His wisdom was speaking of something far more significant than a petty, crude illustration which compares the bliss of Heaven vs. the horror of Hell.







Your mind must also be pre-occupied with the fables which speak of our "loving" God's cosmic crock pot. You missed the entire point. This has nothing to do with condemning ANY Jews, other than a postponement of their inheritance:

• Matthew 20:16 "So the last shall be first, and the first shall be last."

Judah's inheritance will be given to her when "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled;"

• Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
• Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

When shall ALL Israel be saved? When does "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in then... all Israel shall be saved?" The Scriptures tell us, we need not guess:

• Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou [Judah] and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."

Yes, unfortunately for all of you hell-fire and damnation advocates who thought those of Sodom would be burned alive forever and ever, the Scriptures tell us otherwise above. Those of Sodom will return to their former estate.


When Sodom is returned to her former estate (comes up in resurrection) that will be "the fulness of the Gentiles...come in.", and ALL Israel (Samaria and her daughters, and Judah and her daughters) will be saved.

All the doctrines of men to the contrary will not change the word of God. That is when "ALL Israel will be saved."

You have been shown over and over that this is not a parable.

There is no contextual support for this to be a parable.

Luke 16:1 - For the context:

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods....

Luke 16:14 - For the context:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes, He was speaking to His disciples and the Pharisee's overheard and butted in to what Jesus was teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

The fact that you can't see this from these scriptures is alarming at best, yet you have based your whole "theory" on a fact that simply does not exist!

• 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.- No parable

• 16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. - No parable

• 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

No parable

• 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.- No parable

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "



The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!

If you can prove verse 15 - 18 were parables then you might have some context, but as it is the literal story of the rich man is a true account that everyone should heed!

It teaches where the rich man went WHEN HE DIED!


JLB

 

[Agape]

Luke 16:1 - For the context:

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods....

Luke 16:14 - For the context:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes, He was speaking to His disciples and the Pharisee's overheard and butted in to what Jesus was teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

Jesus also said to His disciples (Luke 16:1). Then, the Pharisees also heard all these things (Luke 16:14)
Yes, Jesus is speaking to His disciples and the Pharisees were listening based on above verses.

Luke 16:15 reads: "and He [Jesus] said to them"
Who are "them"? The disciples or the Pharisees?

 

[Osgiliath]

You have been shown over and over that this is not a parable.


JLB

I have?

2

 

[Osgiliath]

You have been shown over and over that this is not a parable.

There is no contextual support for this to be a parable.

The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!

If you can prove verse 15 - 18 were parables then you might have some context, but as it is the literal story of the rich man is a true account that everyone should heed!

It teaches where the rich man went WHEN HE DIED!


JLB

Well, let's thoroughly break it down Scripturally. I spent a few hours writing this just for you JLB. ;)

• Luke 16:19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day."

Is this sinful? Who was it that wore Purple and Fine Linen? The answer is in the Old Testament (Jewish Tanakh).

• Luke 16:20 "And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores."

Is this righteousness? Why does he have a name but the Rich Man is not named? Who was ELIEZER in the Old Testament (Tanakh)

• Luke 16:21 "And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."

Is this a sign of righteousness? Who were those who were associated with DOGS?

• Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried."

What does the Bosom of Abraham mean? And why was the Rich man merely buried while Lazarus was carried away by the Angels?


Have we encountered anything here that depicts a Believer vs. a Non-Believer? Remember, The Jews (Pharisees) believe that everyone is dead until the resurrection.

• Luke 16:23 "And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

G86
αδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

H7585
שׁאלשׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.


These two words above imply the abode of the unseen (makes sense, when one is buried they are unseen). The Non-Believing Jew sees the Blessings of those that are not Jews; and it is this that torments him.

• Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Here we see exactly who the Rich Man is, he is a Jew. For he calls Abraham 'FATHER', this is a Jewish identity. And below Abraham calls him 'SON':

• Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but NOW he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Above we see a "role-reversal" of the two. Lazarus (the Gentile) is NOW where the Rich Man was previously, and the Rich Man (the Jew) is NOW "outside the gate," where Lazarus (the Gentile Dog) was previously.

Who was it that received blessings in life while others recieved poor things in life? Who was it that was lavished with spiritual blessings while those outside the gate hoped, by association, for spiritual 'crumbs' from the table of those so richly blessed? The DOGS?

• Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The Court of the Gentiles." (a GREAT GULF).

Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go. Though designated as "proselytes," they were treated as "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."

• Ephesians 2:13-18 "Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you [Gentiles], who once are far off are become near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us [GREAT GULF] ... He brings the evangel of peace to you [Gentiles] ... for through Him we both [Jews and Gentiles] have had the access, in one spirit to the Father"

Continuing....

• Luke 16:27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, FATHER, that thou wouldest send him to my father's HOUSE."

Father? Send? Father's House? The "HOUSE OF WHO?"

• Luke 16:28 "For I have FIVE BRETHREN; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

FIVE BROTHERS? Why precisely FIVE? Could the answer be in the Bible itself? In the Jewish Tanakh?

Judah had FIVE brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. These were his full brothers:

• Genesis 35:23 "The sons of Leah; [1] Reuben; Jacob's firstborn, and [2] Simeon, and [3] Levi, and [4] Issachar, and [5] Zebulun." (and of course JUDAH - the 4th son born of Leah)
  
  
  [*]Genesis 30:20 "And Leah said ... 'now will my husband be pleased to dwell with me; for I have born him SIX SONS.'"

Here is a reference to the House of Judah...

• Luke 16:29 "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

Who had Moses and the Prophets?...It was, of course, the Jews!

• Luke 16:30 "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if ONE went unto them FROM THE DEAD, they will repent."

Who was it that came back from the dead? Who is THE FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD?

• Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD...."

And the conclusion:

• Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though ONE rose from the dead."

And though Christ rose from the dead, they still did not repent and believe.

This is a parable illustrating the role reversal of Israel and the Gentiles. It is not a "literal account" about the fairy tale orthodox hell. Is the Rich Man depicted as wicked? Is Lazarus depicted as good? Nothing in their descriptions imply any of that. It implies the Rich Man is a Priest. And according to the Jewish Tanakh, Israel will be a Holy Nation, a Nation of Priests.

The Gentiles were considered DOGS, unclean (remember Peter's vision - Acts 10:9-23)? Lazarus is the Greek for Eliezer, who was Abrahams Gentile servant. Because Abraham had no heirs, he considered leaving all he had to Eliezer.

Being in the Bosom of Abraham is a Hebraic Idiom meaning to be in a place of Honor..... a place that God has taken from the Jews and has given it to the Gentiles.



SYMBOLS IN THE PARABLE:

Purple = Royalty
Fine Linen = Priestly Garments
Rich Man's Name = None
Beggar's Name = Lazarus
Laid At The Doorway = Outside
Dogs = Unclean
Crumbs From The table = Spiritual Blessings
Bosom Of Abraham = A Position Of Honor
Buried = Unseen
The Rich Man = Judah
Five Brothers = 1. Reuben, 2. Simeon, 3. Levi, 4. Issachar, and 5. Zebulun
Lazarus = Gentile (Hebrew Eliezar, Abraham's faithful Gentile servant)
Moses and The Prophets = Israel, Jews
One Rising From The Dead = Christ

 

[JLB]

Well, let's thoroughly break it down Scripturally. I spent a few hours writing this just for you JLB. ;)

• Luke 16:19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day."

Is this sinful? Who was it that wore Purple and Fine Linen? The answer is in the Old Testament (Jewish Tanakh).

• Luke 16:20 "And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores."

Is this righteousness? Why does he have a name but the Rich Man is not named? Who was ELIEZER in the Old Testament (Tanakh)

• Luke 16:21 "And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."

Is this a sign of righteousness? Who were those who were associated with DOGS?

• Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried."

What does the Bosom of Abraham mean? And why was the Rich man merely buried while Lazarus was carried away by the Angels?


Have we encountered anything here that depicts a Believer vs. a Non-Believer? Remember, The Jews (Pharisees) believe that everyone is dead until the resurrection.

• Luke 16:23 "And in hell (HADES) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

G86
αδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

H7585
שׁאלשׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.


These two words above imply the abode of the unseen (makes sense, when one is buried they are unseen). The Non-Believing Jew sees the Blessings of those that are not Jews; and it is this that torments him.

• Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Here we see exactly who the Rich Man is, he is a Jew. For he calls Abraham 'FATHER', this is a Jewish identity. And below Abraham calls him 'SON':

• Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but NOW he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Who was it that received blessings in life while others recieved poor things in life? Who was it that was lavished with spiritual blessings while those outside the gate hoped, by association, for spiritual 'crumbs' from the table of those so richly blessed? The DOGS?

• Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

It was the "Gentiles" who were not allowed into the Royal and Priestly House of Judah. They could go no further than "The Court of the Gentiles." (a GREAT GULF).

Any blessings they received had to come to them from inside where they were never allowed to go. Though designated as "proselytes," they were treated as "dogs" who only got the "crumbs" or scraps! Hence we find Lazarus cast "at the gate."

• Ephesians 2:13-18 "Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you [Gentiles], who once are far off are become near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us [GREAT GULF] ... He brings the evangel of peace to you [Gentiles] ... for through Him we both [Jews and Gentiles] have had the access, in one spirit to the Father"

Continuing....

• Luke 16:27 "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, FATHER, that thou wouldest send him to my father's HOUSE."

Father? Send? Father's House? The "HOUSE OF WHO?"

• Luke 16:28 "For I have FIVE BRETHREN; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

FIVE BROTHERS? Why precisely FIVE? Could the answer be in the Bible itself? In the Jewish Tanakh?

Judah had FIVE brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar and Zebulun. These were his full brothers:

• Genesis 35:23 "The sons of Leah; [1] Reuben; Jacob's firstborn, and [2] Simeon, and [3] Levi, and [4] Issachar, and [5] Zebulun." (and of course JUDAH - the 4th son born of Leah)
  
• Genesis 30:20 "And Leah said ... 'now will my husband be pleased to dwell with me; for I have born him SIX SONS.'"

Here is a reference to the House of Judah...

• Luke 16:29 "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

Who had Moses and the Prophets?...It was, of course, the Jews!

• Luke 16:30 "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if ONE went unto them FROM THE DEAD, they will repent."

Who was it that came back from the dead? Who is THE FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD?

• Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD...."

And the conclusion:

• Luke 16:31 "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though ONE rose from the dead."

And though Christ rose from the dead, they still did not repent and believe.

This is a parable illustrating the role reversal of Israel and the Gentiles. It is not a "literal account" about the fairy tale orthodox hell. Is the Rich Man depicted as wicked? Is Lazarus depicted as good? Nothing in their descriptions imply any of that. It implies the Rich Man is a Priest. And according to the Jewish Tanakh, Israel will be a Holy Nation, a Nation of Priests.

The Gentiles were considered DOGS, unclean (remember Peter's vision - Acts 10:9-23)? Lazarus is the Greek for Eliezer, who was Abrahams Gentile servant. Because Abraham had no heirs, he considered leaving all he had to Eliezer.

Being in the Bosom of Abraham is a Hebraic Idiom meaning to be in a place of Honor..... a place that God has taken from the Jews and has given it to the Gentiles.



SYMBOLS IN THE PARABLE:

Purple = Royalty
Fine Linen = Priestly Garments
Rich Man's Name = None
Beggar's Name = Lazarus
Laid At The Doorway = Outside
Dogs = Unclean
Crumbs From The table = Spiritual Blessings
Bosom Of Abraham = A Position Of Honor
Buried = Unseen
The Rich Man = Judah
Five Brothers = 1. Reuben, 2. Simeon, 3. Levi, 4. Issachar, and 5. Zebulun
Lazarus = Gentile (Hebrew Eliezar, Abraham's faithful Gentile servant)
Moses and The Prophets = Israel, Jews
One Rising From The Dead = Christ

You forgot to "break this down" -

Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Tormented in this flame sure sounds like the words of Jesus -

to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-


Rather than trying to explain away the words of Christ, why not accept them and be thankful that you have the opportunity to be saved and encourage others to believe the Gospel.

How could you expect someone to trust you to believe in eternal life in heaven but then you tell them not to believe in hell.

JLB

 

[Butch5]

I see, so Abraham and Moses and Lazarus and the rich man are "really" not dead or asleep in your perception?

Do you know just how twisted that sounds.


JLB

What? How did you draw that conclusion?

 

[Butch5]

You have been shown over and over that this is not a parable.

There is no contextual support for this to be a parable.

Luke 16:1 - For the context:

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods....

Luke 16:14 - For the context:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Jesus wasn't speaking to the multitudes, He was speaking to His disciples and the Pharisee's overheard and butted in to what Jesus was teaching HIS DISCIPLES!

The fact that you can't see this from these scriptures is alarming at best, yet you have based your whole "theory" on a fact that simply does not exist!

• 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.- No parable

• 16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. - No parable

• 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

No parable

• 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.- No parable

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "



The Lord's teaching of the literal story of: Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Hell with fire and torment is and should be taken LITERALLY by all who read The holy scriptures!

If you can prove verse 15 - 18 were parables then you might have some context, but as it is the literal story of the rich man is a true account that everyone should heed!

It teaches where the rich man went WHEN HE DIED!


JLB

I think you're making an assumption that it's not a parable. As has been pointed out it cannot be literal explanation of an afterlife. Would you suggest that Jesus is overturning all of the OT teaching on the death of man? If this passage was teaching about an afterlife it would be the "ONLY" passage in all of Scripture that "teaches" (not where people infer it) it. John 3:13 has been pointed out, no one has ascended into heaven. Additionally the OT is clear about the death of man. Here is something posted on another board in a similar discussion.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

God used the dust of the ground and the breath of life to create a living soul. There is nothing here that speaks of any spirit other than God's breath (spirit). The Scriptures also say,

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;​

15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

If God takes back His sprit (breath) all flesh will die and man returns to the dust. There is nothing here about any other spirit (breath) continuing on.

If you look at the Scriptures you'll find that spirit/breath is the same word. if God takes his breath back flesh dies. Since the creation of man is dust and God's breath there is nothing to continue on.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:18-21 KJV)

Solomon says they all have ONE breath/Spirit. Not two, not three, one, and we saw in Genesis that that one breath belongs to God.

The idea of a spirit or soul that lives on after the body dies is not of Biblical origin. It entered Christianity through Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism.

 

[JLB]

I think you're making an assumption that it's not a parable. As has been pointed out it cannot be literal explanation of an afterlife. Would you suggest that Jesus is overturning all of the OT teaching on the death of man? If this passage was teaching about an afterlife it would be the "ONLY" passage in all of Scripture that "teaches" (not where people infer it) it. John 3:13 has been pointed out, no one has ascended into heaven. Additionally the OT is clear about the death of man. Here is something posted on another board in a similar discussion.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

God used the dust of the ground and the breath of life to create a living soul. There is nothing here that speaks of any spirit other than God's breath (spirit). The Scriptures also say,

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;​

15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

If God takes back His sprit (breath) all flesh will die and man returns to the dust. There is nothing here about any other spirit (breath) continuing on.

If you look at the Scriptures you'll find that spirit/breath is the same word. if God takes his breath back flesh dies. Since the creation of man is dust and God's breath there is nothing to continue on.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:18-21 KJV)

Solomon says they all have ONE breath/Spirit. Not two, not three, one, and we saw in Genesis that that one breath belongs to God.

The idea of a spirit or soul that lives on after the body dies is not of Biblical origin. It entered Christianity through Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism.

At the time Jesus taught His disciples and the Pharisee's who were listening, Moses and Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man had died.

What Jesus taught us here in these scriptures, clearly and plainly overrules your "theory" about a persons spirit and soul after death.


Furthermore -

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:13-16


Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Samuel, Like Abraham and Lazarus were in the heart of the earth, which was called "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise, as Jesus taught us.

Out of the mouth of two or more witness's, let every truth be established.

Again so you don't miss it -

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Bringing me up out of the heart of the earth!!!

You err not knowing the scriptures or the power of God!


JLB

 

[Agape]

At the time Jesus taught His disciples and the Pharisee's who were listening

Luke 16:15 reads: "and He [Jesus] said to them"
Who are "them"? Who was Jesus' primary audience? The disciples or the Pharisees?