The Rich Man and Lazarus, a Parable or a literal account

[Webb]

Luke 16:15 reads: "and He [Jesus] said to them"
Who are "them"? Who was Jesus' primary audience? The disciples or the Pharisees?

Read the first verse of Luke 16, which is verse 1.

 

[JLB]

Luke 16:15 reads: "and He [Jesus] said to them"
Who are "them"? Who was Jesus' primary audience? The disciples or the Pharisees?

1He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods...
13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." 14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Right in the middle of teaching His disciples, Jesus turned to the Pharisee's and addressed them -

"You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Are you somehow under the impression that what Jesus said here to them is a parable?

For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

This is simple plain truth that Jesus was teaching.


JLB

 

[Agape]

Read the first verse of Luke 16, which is verse 1.

In verse 1, the Lord is talking to His disciples, that we know, but my question is who is His audience in verse 15? Context?

Luke 16: 14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

In Luke 16:15-31, the Lord's audience is the Pharisees, not the disciples. Then Jesus talks again to His disciples in Luke 17:1. Do you agree?

 

[JLB]

In verse 1, the Lord is talking to His disciples, that we know, but my question is who is His audience in verse 15? Context?

Luke 16: 14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

In Luke 16:15-31, the Lord's audience is the Pharisees, not the disciples. Then Jesus talks again to His disciples in Luke 17:1. Do you agree?

Right in the middle of teaching His disciples, Jesus turned to the Pharisee's and addressed them -

"You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Are you somehow under the impression that what Jesus said here to them is a parable?


JLB

 

[Agape]

Right in the middle of teaching His disciples, Jesus turned to the Pharisee's and addressed them -

How do you know that JLB? I mean "right in the middle of teaching His disciples" is not in the Bible, you are making that assumption. We know that Jesus was talking to His disciples in Luke 16:1 because the Bible says so. We see the involvement of the Pharisees because it is written in Luke 16:14 and we know that in Luke 16:15 the Lord is talking to the Pharisees and that's the surrounding context of the Bible passage under discussion.

"You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Are you somehow under the impression that what Jesus said here to them is a parable?

Why this question JLB? I am not there yet, I think we should at least agree on who the audience is. Who was the Lord talking to in Luke 16:19-31? Context is important.

Now, in response to your question: No I don't think that Luke 16:15-18 is a parable.

 

[JLB]

How do you know that JLB? I mean "right in the middle of teaching His disciples" is not in the Bible, you are making that assumption. We know that Jesus was talking to His disciples in Luke 16:1 because the Bible says so. We see the involvement of the Pharisees because it is written in Luke 16:14 and we know that in Luke 16:15 the Lord is talking to the Pharisees and that's the surrounding context of the Bible passage under discussion.


Why this question JLB? I am not there yet, I think we should at least agree on who the audience is. Who was the Lord talking to in Luke 16:19-31? Context is important.

Now, in response to your question: No I don't think that Luke 16:15-18 is a parable.

1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and an accusation was brought to him that this man was wasting his goods. 2 So he called him and said to him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward.' 3 Then the steward said within himself, 'What shall I do? For my master is taking the stewardship away from me. I cannot dig; I am ashamed to beg. 4 I have resolved what to do, that when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.' 5 So he called every one of his master's debtors to him, and said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' 6 And he said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' So he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.' 7 Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' So he said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.' 8 So the master commended the unjust steward because he had dealt shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light.

Speaking to His Disciples


9 And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by unrighteous mammon, that when you fail, they may receive you into an everlasting home. 10 He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much. 11 Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if you have not been faithful in what is another man's, who will give you what is your own?

Speaking to His Disciples


13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

Speaking to His Disciples

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

While in the middle of speaking to His Disciples the Pharisee's interrupt Him, and He begins to address them, 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Summary - Jesus is teaching His disciples and is interrupted by the Pharisee's, who they derided Him.

Jesus then addresses them with the comment - "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

He then goes on to teach the story of a beggar named Lazarus who died and was carried to Abraham's Bosom, which was contrary to what the pharisee's believed about poor people.

They assumed if a person was rich, it was because that person was blessed by God.

Jesus' story contradicted their belief!

Jesus fully intended them and us to understand the point He was making which needed no explaining.
JLB

 

[Agape]

Summary - Jesus is teaching His disciples and is interrupted by the Pharisee's, who they derided Him.

Jesus then addresses them with the comment - "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

He then goes on to teach the story of a beggar named Lazarus who died and was carried to Abraham's Bosom, which was contrary to what the pharisee's believed about poor people.

They assumed if a person was rich, it was because that person was blessed by God.

Jesus' story contradicted their belief!

Jesus fully intended them and us to understand the point He was making which needed no explaining.
JLB

Excellent!
We're on agreement here. Jesus was countering the Pharisees, which means these were His primary audience. I know you don't want to say it because you don't want to reconsider your belief that "Lazarus and the rich man" is a true story. So, now I am going to go back to your previous posts and counter some of your arguments, so I can share with you reasons why no one convinced me yet that it was a true story.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted by JLB,

They assumed if a person was rich, it was because that person was blessed by God.

Jesus' story contradicted their belief!

So it is a parable. Well whaddaya know. Go figure!

 

[Butch5]

At the time Jesus taught His disciples and the Pharisee's who were listening, Moses and Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man had died.

What Jesus taught us here in these scriptures, clearly and plainly overrules your "theory" about a persons spirit and soul after death.


Furthermore -

13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:13-16


Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Samuel, Like Abraham and Lazarus were in the heart of the earth, which was called "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise, as Jesus taught us.

Out of the mouth of two or more witness's, let every truth be established.

Again so you don't miss it -

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Bringing me up out of the heart of the earth!!!

You err not knowing the scriptures or the power of God!


JLB

JBL,

There is a difference between the Scriptures teaching something and a person inferring something. I could explain the Scripture about Samuel but I don't think it would make difference. It seems to me that you've determined what you're going to believe and nothing is going to change that. Your understanding of this is taught "NOWHERE" in Scripture. You are simply inferring it. The Old Testament teaches that when a man dies his body returns to the dust and God's spirit returns to Him. We have the creation account of Adam.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

We can see Scripture teaches that man was created from the dust of the ground and the breath of God. Those two combined became a living soul. According to this passage man consists of the dust of the ground and the breath of God. Solomon said,

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:19-21 KJV)

Here we see what happens when a man dies. His body returns to the dust and God's spirit/breath returns to God. What is left that could continue on? What is left to be a consciousness existing in hades. You can quote the passage about Samuel and the rich man and Lazarus, but the bottom line is you cannot contradict this clear teaching in Scripture. If you're going to come to the truth on the issue you've got to harmonize these passages.

I grant you that if one already has the idea of a consciousness that exists after death, there are passages that could seem to support that idea, however, that idea is nowhere taught in Scripture. Here's something to think about concerning Samuel because I used to use this passage the same way. Saul was consulting a medium who was dealing with demonic spirits.

Something else to think about, Can those in Hades talk to those in Abraham's bosom/Heaven/Paradise?

Does Jesus suddenly, in the middle of ripping the Pharisees just stop and tell his disciples about the afterlife? This discourse begins in chapter 14, nowhere has He mentioned an afterlife. Do you really think He just suddenly interjects a teaching about an afterlife, that has nothing to do with the conversation, in the middle of what He's saying?

As I pointed out, there is nothing that teaches about a consciousness that exists after death. You don't think Jesus would teach something contrary to God's word do you?

 

[Agape]

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Samuel, Like Abraham and Lazarus were in the heart of the earth, which was called "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise, as Jesus taught us.

I am looking at your statement that Samuel is in Paradise and wonder why Saul got there too. Here is what Samuel said to Saul : "And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me†(1 Samuel 28: 19)

Context: 1 Samuel 28: 16-18 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing [highlight]the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy[/highlight]? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. [highlight]For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day.19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines.[/highlight]

I believe we all agree that this does not look like God was happy with Saul. How did Saul end up in Paradise?

 

[JLB]

I am looking at your statement that Samuel is in Paradise and wonder why Saul got there too. Here is what Samuel said to Saul : "And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me†(1 Samuel 28: 19)

Context: 1 Samuel 28: 16-18 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing [highlight]the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy[/highlight]? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. [highlight]For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day.19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines.[/highlight]

I believe we all agree that this does not look like God was happy with Saul. How did Saul end up in Paradise?

Here's what the scriptures teach -

And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth."


... ascending out of the earth.

To ascend means to go up. Samuel ascended or traveled upward from out of the earth.


Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

Samuel was down in the earth and ascended up out of the earth from where he was.

Jesus taught us that Abraham and the beggar Lazarus were also kept in the heart of the earth as well.

If you chose to ignore these scriptures or explain them away, then that is between you and The Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JBL,

There is a difference between the Scriptures teaching something and a person inferring something. I could explain the Scripture about Samuel but I don't think it would make difference. It seems to me that you've determined what you're going to believe and nothing is going to change that. Your understanding of this is taught "NOWHERE" in Scripture. You are simply inferring it. The Old Testament teaches that when a man dies his body returns to the dust and God's spirit returns to Him. We have the creation account of Adam.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

We can see Scripture teaches that man was created from the dust of the ground and the breath of God. Those two combined became a living soul. According to this passage man consists of the dust of the ground and the breath of God. Solomon said,

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:19-21 KJV)

Here we see what happens when a man dies. His body returns to the dust and God's spirit/breath returns to God. What is left that could continue on? What is left to be a consciousness existing in hades. You can quote the passage about Samuel and the rich man and Lazarus, but the bottom line is you cannot contradict this clear teaching in Scripture. If you're going to come to the truth on the issue you've got to harmonize these passages.

I grant you that if one already has the idea of a consciousness that exists after death, there are passages that could seem to support that idea, however, that idea is nowhere taught in Scripture. Here's something to think about concerning Samuel because I used to use this passage the same way. Saul was consulting a medium who was dealing with demonic spirits.

Something else to think about, Can those in Hades talk to those in Abraham's bosom/Heaven/Paradise?

Does Jesus suddenly, in the middle of ripping the Pharisees just stop and tell his disciples about the afterlife? This discourse begins in chapter 14, nowhere has He mentioned an afterlife. Do you really think He just suddenly interjects a teaching about an afterlife, that has nothing to do with the conversation, in the middle of what He's saying?

As I pointed out, there is nothing that teaches about a consciousness that exists after death. You don't think Jesus would teach something contrary to God's word do you?

Does Jesus suddenly, in the middle of ripping the Pharisees just stop and tell his disciples about the afterlife? This discourse begins in chapter 14, nowhere has He mentioned an afterlife. Do you really think He just suddenly interjects a teaching about an afterlife, that has nothing to do with the conversation, in the middle of what He's saying?

Jesus clearly and plainly teaches them that being rich in this life does not mean you are blessed by God.

By Jesus showing them the end result of each ones life after they died, it drove home the point about the value of keeping God's word over gathering material wealth.

Remember it was Jesus who said - what would it profit a man to gain even the whole world and lose his soul.

Jesus illustrates that point here in His teaching of the rich man and Lazarus.


JLB

 

[Agape]

Here's what the scriptures teach -

And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth."


... ascending out of the earth.

To ascend means to go up. Samuel ascended or traveled upward from out of the earth.


Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

Samuel was down in the earth and ascended up out of the earth from where he was.

This does not answer my question. Why do I always get answers to questions I don't ask?
Samuel said that Saul would be with him the following day. If you state that Samuel was in Paradise, I ask you how about Saul, where did he go?

Jesus taught us that Abraham and the beggar Lazarus were also kept in the heart of the earth as well.

Show me where.
Luke 16: 22-23 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

All I read is that Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom. It’s the only time "Abraham's bosom" is ever used in the Bible. All the above passage is saying is that Lazarus was carried to the place where Abraham was!

If you chose to ignore these scriptures or explain them away, then that is between you and The Lord.

You realize that this applies to you too, JLB?

 

[Butch5]

Jesus clearly and plainly teaches them that being rich in this life does not mean you are blessed by God.

By Jesus showing them the end result of each ones life after they died, it drove home the point about the value of keeping God's word over gathering material wealth.

Remember it was Jesus who said - what would it profit a man to gain even the whole world and lose his soul.

Jesus illustrates that point here in His teaching of the rich man and Lazarus.


JLB

How does this address the issue? If Jesus was teaching about a consciousness that goes on after death, He'd be overturning everything He said in the OT.

 

[JLB]

This does not answer my question. Why do I always get answers to questions I don't ask?
Samuel said that Saul would be with him the following day. If you state that Samuel was in Paradise, I ask you how about Saul, where did he go?


Show me where.
Luke 16: 22-23 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

All I read is that Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom. It’s the only time "Abraham's bosom" is ever used in the Bible. All the above passage is saying is that Lazarus was carried to the place where Abraham was!


You realize that this applies to you too, JLB?

This does not answer my question. Why do I always get answers to questions I don't ask?

You are not going to derail the topic with suppositions of things like -

I believe we all agree that this does not look like God was happy with Saul. How did Saul end up in Paradise?

Samuel was down in the heart of the earth.

The rich man was in hell, which is in the heart of the earth!

Abraham was within eyesight of the rich man who was in the heart of the earth!

22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The scriptures teach clearly these things, so its up to you to believe or not believe what Jesus taught us.

JLB

 

[Butch5]

Here's what the scriptures teach -

And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth."


... ascending out of the earth.

To ascend means to go up. Samuel ascended or traveled upward from out of the earth.


Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

Samuel was down in the earth and ascended up out of the earth from where he was.

Jesus taught us that Abraham and the beggar Lazarus were also kept in the heart of the earth as well.

If you chose to ignore these scriptures or explain them away, then that is between you and The Lord.


JLB

Hi JBL,

I Looked at several translations to find which one said spirit, it was the NKJV. Spirit is not a good translation. Most translations translate it gods. The Hebrew is "eloheem," the Greek is "theos." They are properly translated gods. The medium said she saw gods (plural) coming up out of the ground. We know from Scripture that there is but one God, the Father. Scripture calls demons gods.

KJV Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. (Deu 32:17 KJV)

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. (1Co 10:20 KJV)

So we have a medium calling up and seeing demons coming out of the ground. If these are demons surely one wasn't actually Samuel himself. I suggest it was a demon that they saw.

 

[Butch5]

You are not going to derail the topic with suppositions of things like -





Samuel was down in the heart of the earth.

The rich man was in hell, which is in the heart of the earth!

Abraham was within eyesight of the rich man who was in the heart of the earth!

22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The scriptures teach clearly these things, so its up to you to believe or not believe what Jesus taught us.

JLB

Hi JBL,

Here's something for thought. Samuel said why have you brought me up? This doesn't require being in the heart of the earth. He would say the same thing if he was simply in the grave.

 

[JLB]

Hi JBL,

Here's something for thought. Samuel said why have you brought me up? This doesn't require being in the heart of the earth. He would say the same thing if he was simply in the grave.

Yeah, and I'm sure that Saul was going to share his grave with him the next day.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Yeah, and I'm sure that Saul was going to share his grave with him the next day.


JLB

I'm not sure where you're going here.

 

[JLB]

Hi JBL,

I Looked at several translations to find which one said spirit, it was the NKJV. Spirit is not a good translation. Most translations translate it gods. The Hebrew is "eloheem," the Greek is "theos." They are properly translated gods. The medium said she saw gods (plural) coming up out of the ground. We know from Scripture that there is but one God, the Father. Scripture calls demons gods.

KJV Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. (Deu 32:17 KJV)

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. (1Co 10:20 KJV)

So we have a medium calling up and seeing demons coming out of the ground. If these are demons surely one wasn't actually Samuel himself. I suggest it was a demon that they saw.

Here is what the scripture says -

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?


JLB