The Rich Man and Lazarus, a Parable or a literal account

[John 8:32]

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:32

Abraham was not dead, however his body was asleep in the dust, but Abraham, who is not a body but a spirit is, was alive in the heart of the earth, as Jesus taught us about Abraham and as the scripture teaches us about Samuel.


the dead refers to the body.


JLB

Interesting, you are willing to discount much scripture because of an incorrect interpretation of a parable.

 

[John 8:32]

That's why I'm just letting it go. It doesn't appear to me that it matters.

Wait for me.

 

[JLB]

And the person who wrote Genesis and Ecclesiastes was also under the inspiration of God. If all you're going to do is argue those verses of Scripture then have at it. If you're interested in reconciling "all" of Scripture then we can discuss it.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead in this scripture refers to the body.

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead in this scripture refers to the body.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Grave here in this scripture is - Sheol - Strongs 7585 -

Definition

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
   1. the underworld
   2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
      1. place of no return
      2. without praise of God
      3. wicked sent there for punishment
      4. righteous not abandoned to it
      5. of the place of exile (fig)
      6. of extreme degradation in sin

 

[John 8:32]

The dead in this scripture refers to the body.


The dead in this scripture refers to the body.

Ever seen a brain dead body that is still living praise God? Of course not, the part of you that makes you able to know anything or praise God is the spirit in man. This spirit does not function without a body, just as the operating system for a computer does not function without a computer.

Grave here in this scripture is - Sheol - Strongs 7585 -


Definition

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
   1. the underworld
   2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
      1. place of no return
      2. without praise of God
      3. wicked sent there for punishment
      4. righteous not abandoned to it
      5. of the place of exile (fig)
      6. of extreme degradation in sin

OK so there is no work, device, knowledge or wisdom in the grave. Well, if you are dead and not conscious, I would suspect that is true. If you are conscious in the grave then there would be work, device, knowledge and wisdom. So, Eccl 9:10 says that those in the grave, which is the primary definition for sheol, are unconscious.

From good ole Wikipedia...


She'ol (pron.: /ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible's underworld, a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God.[1]


Stillness and Darkness is pretty good description of dead and unconscious and is harmonious with the rest of scripture. And what did the Devil say to Eve?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die:

I can just hear him now "Why you have an immortal soul trapped in that body that does not die".

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls [persons] are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[Butch5]

The dead in this scripture refers to the body.


The dead in this scripture refers to the body.


Grave here in this scripture is - Sheol - Strongs 7585 -

Definition

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
   1. the underworld
   2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
      1. place of no return
      2. without praise of God
      3. wicked sent there for punishment
      4. righteous not abandoned to it
      5. of the place of exile (fig)
      6. of extreme degradation in sin

Hi JBL,

You can read Strong's dictionary or you look at the Bible. Look in the OT an every passage that speaks of Sheol and see if there is one that "Requires" your definition. I've tried to point out that Genesis gives the creation of man, there is a body and the breath/spirit of God, nothing else is mentioned. Job said, if God takes back His breath/spirit all flesh will die. Ecc. says that man is no different than the animals they all have one breath/spirit. That's a clear statement, they all have one breath/spirit. It doesn't say they have anymore than one and we know from Genesis that the one is God's. However, we interpret anything in the Scriptures is can't contradict these clear statements.

If you're serious about looking into this more deeply let me suggest a study that is going on at the moment. They are looking at the meaning of the word spirit and soul in both the old and new testaments and are discussing these same passages. It is an attempt to look at the Scriptures and without bringing presuppositions to the table it is called "The Destiny of the Wicked". It's in the Berean's Discussion group. They are doing an in depth study of this issue. As I said before I used to believe as you do but when I saw the evidence I had to reconsider.

 

[John 8:32]

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Word for soul here is...

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Other places that this word nephesh is used...

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The word for life is nephesh.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Creature from the waters is nephesh. From now on I am just going to bold the word that comes from nephesh.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Here we find that the soul is the blood.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

A soul (a nephesh) is simply any living thing that breathes oxygen for a living. Man is not an immortal soul, but rather an earthly creature which can die and become the dust of the ground again. What God promises us is eternal life. The Devil lies and says you already have eternal life...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What God says is that we can die and become dust again...

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Now, what does God say about Adam and Eve and eternal life?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God plainly says here they do not have an immortal soul, eternal life, and He put a cherubim to guard the tree of life so they could not eat of it.

 

[Butch5]

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Word for soul here is...

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Other places that this word nephesh is used...

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The word for life is nephesh.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Creature from the waters is nephesh. From now on I am just going to bold the word that comes from nephesh.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Here we find that the soul is the blood.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

A soul (a nephesh) is simply any living thing that breathes oxygen for a living. Man is not an immortal soul, but rather an earthly creature which can die and become the dust of the ground again. What God promises us is eternal life. The Devil lies and says you already have eternal life...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What God says is that we can die and become dust again...

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Now, what does God say about Adam and Eve and eternal life?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God plainly says here they do not have an immortal soul, eternal life, and He put a cherubim to guard the tree of life so they could not eat of it.

Hi John,

This is discussed at length in the discussion I linked to.

 

[John 8:32]

Hi John,

This is discussed at length in the discussion I linked to.

Sorry, read right over the link and didn't realize it was a link. LOL.

 

[Butch5]

Sorry, read right over the link and didn't realize it was a link. LOL.

LOL, I know how that is.

 

[Agape]

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:32

Context please, context! The Lord said that when He rebuked the Sadducees for denying the resurrection. This does not say that they are in Heaven or alive.

Abraham was not dead, however his body was asleep in the dust, but Abraham, who is not a body but a spirit is, was alive in the heart of the earth

Abraham died (Hebrews 11:13) and has not yet received his reward and been made perfect (Hebrews 11:39-40).

 

[JLB]

Context please, context! The Lord said that when He rebuked the Sadducees for denying the resurrection. This does not say that they are in Heaven or alive.


Abraham died (Hebrews 11:13) and has not yet received his reward and been made perfect (Hebrews 11:39-40).

Abraham is alive, as Jesus taught.

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." 39 Then some of the scribes answered and said, "Teacher, You have spoken well."

and again -


22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22-23

You err not know the scriptures.


JLB

 

[Agape]

You err not know the scriptures. JLB

are you saying that to me?

 

[JLB]

are you saying that to me?

I am saying it to you!

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:29-32

God is God of the living!


If you don't understand by this scripture that Jesus Christ is saying Abraham is alive, then I say to you -

You err not knowing the scriptures!


JLB

 

[Agape]

I am saying it to you!

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:29-32

God is God of the living!

You cannot possibly over-contextualize Matthew 22:32 just to prove that Abraham is alive, judging the rich man because you believe that the "rich man and Lazarus" is a true story. Jesus said that in the context of rebuking the Sadducees who said that there is no resurrection.

No part of the Bible may be interpreted so as to contradict another part of the Bible. It is "the Harmony of Scripture" Principle. You should have questioned the fact that the rich man was not crying to our Heavenly Father or Jesus, rather he was crying out to "Abraham" (Luke 16:24). Since when do we pray Abraham? You should've questioned the fact that Abraham could not possibly be in Heaven "judging" the rich man when Abraham himself had not yet received his reward and been made perfect (Hebrews 11:39-40). You did not question the fact that the rich man who was "dead" wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue (Luke 16:24) when Luke 16:22 clearly says that he was buried. Since when do spirit beings keep their tongues and drink water in Hades?

If you don't understand by this scripture that Jesus Christ is saying Abraham is alive, then I say to you -
You err not knowing the scriptures!

When exegetical fallacies become the standard, it makes sense that I err and that does not bother me. If you can persuade me with sound hermeneutics that the "rich man and Lazarus" is NOT a parable, I will stand corrected since it will based upon the right standard.

 

[JLB]

You cannot possibly over-contextualize Matthew 22:32 just to prove that Abraham is alive, judging the rich man because you believe that the "rich man and Lazarus" is a true story. Jesus said that in the context of rebuking the Sadducees who said that there is no resurrection.

No part of the Bible may be interpreted so as to contradict another part of the Bible. It is "the Harmony of Scripture" Principle. You should have questioned the fact that the rich man was not crying to our Heavenly Father or Jesus, rather he was crying out to "Abraham" (Luke 16:24). Since when do we pray Abraham? You should've questioned the fact that Abraham could not possibly be in Heaven "judging" the rich man when Abraham himself had not yet received his reward and been made perfect (Hebrews 11:39-40). You did not question the fact that the rich man who was "dead" wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue (Luke 16:24) when Luke 16:22 clearly says that he was buried. Since when do spirit beings keep their tongues and drink water in Hades?


When exegetical fallacies become the standard, it makes sense that I err and that does not bother me. If you can persuade me with sound hermeneutics that the "rich man and Lazarus" is NOT a parable, I will stand corrected since it will based upon the right standard.

Another words what you are saying is: The bible doesn't really mean what it says.

What you are really saying is: When Jesus said - But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him.

What Jesus really meant was that God the Father would cast you into a Jewish trash dump called Gehenna after you die.

Another words what you are saying is: What Jesus really meant when He said -

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
What that really means is that you would go to some underground common grave where you have no awareness of anything because your soul would be asleep.
That's what being cast into hell where the fire is never quenched really means.

Thanks for clearing it all up for us.


JLB

 

[Agape]

Another words what you are saying is: The bible doesn't really mean what it says.

I am so sorry if you misunderstood me again JLB, but that's not what over-contextualizing means.

What you are really saying is: When Jesus said - But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him.

What Jesus really meant was that God the Father would cast you into a Jewish trash dump called Gehenna after you die.

Another words what you are saying is: What Jesus really meant when He said -

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
What that really means is that you would go to some underground common grave where you have no awareness of anything because your soul would be asleep.
That's what being cast into hell where the fire is never quenched really means.

Thanks for clearing it all up for us.


JLB

The Bible also says that lies and evil thoughts defile a man, and pride only breeds quarrels.

Have a blessed Sunday in the Lord.

 

[JLB]

I am so sorry if you misunderstood me again JLB, but that's not what over-contextualizing means.



The Bible also says that lies and evil thoughts defile a man, and pride only breeds quarrels.

Have a blessed Sunday in the Lord.

So that I might understand what you believe, could you clarify something for me?

In the following scripture -

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Based on this scripture, do you believe:

A] - Hell [Gehenna] is a place people go after they die.
B] - Hell [Gehenna] is a referring to a valley outside of Jerusalem where trash is burned?

A or B ?

You have a blessed Sunday also.

JLB

 

[Agape]

So that I might understand what you believe, could you clarify something for me?

In the following scripture -

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Based on this scripture, do you believe:
A] - Hell [Gehenna] is a place people go after they die.
B] - Hell [Gehenna] is a referring to a valley outside of Jerusalem where trash is burned?

A or B ?

You have a blessed Sunday also.

JLB

Neither answer A nor B. ing

Based on the scripture you quoted, I believe what it says, that I should fear Him [God] who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. I seek no other sense than what it plainly says. It says get your fear right, don't fear men, fear God. It says only God can destroy soul and spirit. Where? In hell. What does hell mean in this passage? I believe you used the right greek translation of the word "hell" [(geennē ,γεέννῃ), http://biblos.com/matthew/10-28.htm]

Gehenna was the name of the city dump in Jerusalem where fire never went out (Isaiah 66:24) and Jesus used that imagery to describe the place of everlasting punishment.

 

[JLB]

Neither answer A nor B. ing

Based on the scripture you quoted, I believe what it says, that I should fear Him [God] who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. I seek no other sense than what it plainly says. It says get your fear right, don't fear men, fear God. It says only God can destroy soul and spirit. Where? In hell. What does hell mean in this passage? I believe you used the right greek translation of the word "hell" [(geennē ,γεέννῃ), http://biblos.com/matthew/10-28.htm]

Gehenna was the name of the city dump in Jerusalem where fire never went out (Isaiah 66:24) and Jesus used that imagery to describe the place of everlasting punishment.

So you agree that the name of the place of everlasting punishment is Hell [Gehenna].

Do you believe there is fire there?


JLB

 

[Agape]

So you agree that the name of the place of everlasting punishment is Hell [Gehenna].

Do you believe there is fire there?


JLB

Yes Sir! ;)