The Rich Man and Lazarus, a Parable or a literal account

[JLB]

I'm not sure where you're going here.

He would say the same thing if he was simply in the grave.

First, you say that in the grave the dead have no awarness of anything.

You say that hell is really not hell, but the grave.

Now when presented with truth that contradicts what you believe, you seem to insinuate that by Samuel saying to Saul why did you bring me up and, he also said to Saul you will be with me, that would suggest that you believe Saul would somehow go to be with Samuel in his grave?

Samuel was in the heart of the earth, as was Abraham, as Jesus taught.

JLB

 

[John 8:32]

You are not going to derail the topic with suppositions of things like -




Samuel was down in the heart of the earth.

The rich man was in hell, which is in the heart of the earth!

Abraham was within eyesight of the rich man who was in the heart of the earth!

22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The scriptures teach clearly these things, so its up to you to believe or not believe what Jesus taught us.

JLB

What scripture says that hell is in the heart of the earth?

Apparently then, if these scriptures are doctrine, they could hear and see each other. If that is the case, then mothers will see their lost children burning in hell and hear their screams and shrieks for all eternity. Now won't that be glorious.

1Sa 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

What is a familiar spirit? It is not of God...

Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

And there are many clear passages that tell us the dead are unconscious, so who really appeared to Saul? A demon or perhaps the Devil himself, impersonating Samuel. Saul resorted to witchcraft because he had disobeyed God to the extant that God no longer answered him...

1Sa 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Samuel was dead just as the other heroes of the hall of fame in Heb 11.

 

[Agape]

Here is what the scripture says -

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?JLB

and the scripture also says that Samuel said to Saul : "And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me†(1 Samuel 28: 19)

Yeah, and I'm sure that Saul was going to share his grave with him the next day.

Huh? Grave?

You are not going to derail the topic with suppositions of things like -

Of course not! All that I do is refute some of your arguments, if you can persuade me that I am wrong, please do so without being on the defensive, like suggesting that I am in trouble if I don't believe the way you do.
Today, you are discussing with me on a forum, you can take your time to answer and can even chose to ignore me, but tomorrow you may be leading a bible course, facing hundreds of people and if one of them tells you: "Teacher, how can you say that Samuel was in Paradise when he said to Saul that he would be with him the following day. Is Saul in paradise too?". What are you going to say?

 

[gr8grace]

Luke 16:19-31 is NOT a parable. The Lord never used specific names in His parables. Lazarus was a real man and the rich man (Luke 16:14) was a scribe(purple,fine linen) or pharisee(a law believing, devout, looking good from the outer appearance Jew) Lazarus was put there for the pharisee as a sign for the pharisee in a future event.

The rich man had Moses and the prophets.....a Jew
The rich man calls Abraham his father, but he is on the wrong side of the chasm.(He needed Christ)

Notice the rich man recognizes and knows Lazarus. Because he walked by him everyday, laying at his GATE(temple gate, the beautiful gate) begging him for alms , but never getting anything. But the dogs(unclean to a Jew) came and licked his sores(the unclean at least gave him some comfort)

Lazarus was a real witness to the rich scribe/pharisee during their lifetimes and the rich man rejected Lazarus and his witness for Christ.

And Luke, who continues His gospel account with the Book of Acts tells us how that played out in real life in Acts 3:1-10

Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer,the ninth hour. And a man lame from birth was being carried, whom they laid daily at the GATE of the temple that is called the Beautiful gate to ask alms of those entering the temple. Seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, He asked to receive alms. And Peter directed his gaze at him, as did John, and said,"look at us." And he fixed his attention on them,expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said,"I have no silver or gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!"

The lame beggar Got saved and the rich pharisee obviously rejected that "sign". That rejection is REAL and the outcome for the rich man is REAL. Matt 16:18

 

[mdougie]

So is the moral of the story that people shouldn't be rich and that socialism is the will of God? Seems like Lazarus just wanted welfare, and God thought that was ok. Also, the rich man who though Lazarus was lazy and should get a job was evil and went to hell because of that belief.

 

[Agape]

Luke 16:19-31 is NOT a parable. The Lord never used specific names in His parables. Lazarus was a real man and the rich man (Luke 16:14) was a scribe(purple,fine linen) or pharisee(a law believing, devout, looking good from the outer appearance Jew) Lazarus was put there for the pharisee as a sign for the pharisee in a future event.

The rich man had Moses and the prophets.....a Jew
The rich man calls Abraham his father, but he is on the wrong side of the chasm.(He needed Christ)

Notice the rich man recognizes and knows Lazarus. Because he walked by him everyday, laying at his GATE(temple gate, the beautiful gate) begging him for alms , but never getting anything. But the dogs(unclean to a Jew) came and licked his sores(the unclean at least gave him some comfort)

Lazarus was a real witness to the rich scribe/pharisee during their lifetimes and the rich man rejected Lazarus and his witness for Christ.

And Luke, who continues His gospel account with the Book of Acts tells us how that played out in real life in Acts 3:1-10

Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer,the ninth hour. And a man lame from birth was being carried, whom they laid daily at the GATE of the temple that is called the Beautiful gate to ask alms of those entering the temple. Seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, He asked to receive alms. And Peter directed his gaze at him, as did John, and said,"look at us." And he fixed his attention on them,expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said,"I have no silver or gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!"

The lame beggar Got saved and the rich pharisee obviously rejected that "sign". That rejection is REAL and the outcome for the rich man is REAL. Matt 16:18

Hi Jarrod!
Let us assume this is a true story. Here is a simple question.
Did the rich man's flesh see corruption after he died?
Or do spirit beings drink water? In fact, the rich man asked Abraham to send over Lazarus so he would "dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue" (Luke 16:24). Doesn't that seem odd to you? This man is tormented in flames (verse 24) and wants a drop of cold water on his tongue.

 

[Butch5]

Here is what the scripture says -

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?


JLB

Yes, and the medium saw gods coming up out of the ground. The Scriptures call these gods devils. Notice also that Saul didn't see Samuel, only the medium did. You're understanding of this passage is contradictory to the teaching of death in the OT. In order to understand we need to harmonize all of the passages.

 

[Butch5]

First, you say that in the grave the dead have no awarness of anything.

You say that hell is really not hell, but the grave.

Now when presented with truth that contradicts what you believe, you seem to insinuate that by Samuel saying to Saul why did you bring me up and, he also said to Saul you will be with me, that would suggest that you believe Saul would somehow go to be with Samuel in his grave?

Samuel was in the heart of the earth, as was Abraham, as Jesus taught.

JLB

Where does it say that Samuel was in the heart of the earth? What truth contradicts what I believe? I've presented passages that speak of the death of man which you haven't addressed nor reconciled. I also asked you how your understanding of the passage fits the context of what Jesus was saying, which you've not answered either. Do you think Jesus went around making random statements?

 

[WIP]

So is the moral of the story that people shouldn't be rich and that socialism is the will of God? Seems like Lazarus just wanted welfare, and God thought that was ok. Also, the rich man who though Lazarus was lazy and should get a job was evil and went to hell because of that belief.

I usually figure the moral of this story is very much the same as this one from Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, bt the righteous into eternal life.â€

 

[mdougie]

I usually figure the moral of this story is very much the same as this one from Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So more rich is evil and collectivism good. That's the moral of that story too it seems to me. Look out for people who can't look after themselves.

That hoarding money is evil in an of its self is common teaching in the bible. The whole it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle line than go to heaven is pretty clear. That being it is impossible absolutely for it to happen. The clear moral instruction is to avoid money hoarding and greed, and to give to the less fortunate.

 

[JLB]

and the scripture also says that Samuel said to Saul : "And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me†(1 Samuel 28: 19)


Huh? Grave?


Of course not! All that I do is refute some of your arguments, if you can persuade me that I am wrong, please do so without being on the defensive, like suggesting that I am in trouble if I don't believe the way you do.
Today, you are discussing with me on a forum, you can take your time to answer and can even chose to ignore me, but tomorrow you may be leading a bible course, facing hundreds of people and if one of them tells you: "Teacher, how can you say that Samuel was in Paradise when he said to Saul that he would be with him the following day. Is Saul in paradise too?". What are you going to say?

You haven't refuted anything.


This is what I wrote -

Here is what the scripture says -

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

Here is your "answer" to what I wrote -

and the scripture also says that Samuel said to Saul : "And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me†(1 Samuel 28: 19)


This does not refute anything.This scripture actually shows that Samuel had an awareness of things on earth as well as things in the spirit realm, which means he was not "asleep" in his grave with no awareness of anything.Again, you have not refuted anything, rather, you have substantiated my position that people have a conscience awareness after they die.


I wrote -

Yeah, and I'm sure that Saul was going to share his grave with him the next day.

your "answer", your "refute".

Huh? Grave?


I wrote -

You are not going to derail the topic with suppositions of things like -

I wrote this in response to your comment -

I believe we all agree that this does not look like God was happy with Saul. How did Saul end up in Paradise?

This thread is not about speculating on how God felt about Saul.

The fact is Samuel "came up" from where he was in the earth to speak to Saul.

The fact is Samuel had a conscience awareness about what was going on, even though he had died. [physically, his body]

These two scriptural facts coincide with what Jesus taught about the rich man and Lazarus.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, and the medium saw gods coming up out of the ground. The Scriptures call these gods devils. Notice also that Saul didn't see Samuel, only the medium did. You're understanding of this passage is contradictory to the teaching of death in the OT. In order to understand we need to harmonize all of the passages.

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

The person who wrote 1 Samuel, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote - ... Now Samuel said to Saul.

This is a conversation between Samuel and Saul. This is Holy Scripture.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WRITTEN BY THE WITCH OF ENDOR!

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do."

16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."

20 Then immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.

Again, this is a conversation between Samuel [red letters] and Saul [blue letters] recorded for us by the hand of God, for our admonition and understanding.

This is a true story, just like the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham.


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

The person who wrote 1 Samuel, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote - ... Now Samuel said to Saul.

This is a conversation between Samuel and Saul. This is Holy Scripture.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WRITTEN BY THE WITCH OF ENDOR!

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do."

16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."

20 Then immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.

Again, this is a conversation between Samuel [red letters] and Saul [blue letters] recorded for us by the hand of God, for our admonition and understanding.

This is a true story, just like the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham.


JLB

Seems you are reading this account with some naivete, you are assuming that everything that everyone says is truth. Factor this into your thinking concerning the witch at Endor...

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Much more goes on in the spirit realm than you or I are aware of.

 

[JLB]

Seems you are reading this account with some naivete, you are assuming that everything that everyone says is truth. Factor this into your thinking concerning the witch at Endor...

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Much more goes on in the spirit realm than you or I are aware of.

1 Kings 22 has nothing to do with the context of this post.

The scriptures in 1 Samuel 28:15-20 record what Samuel said to Saul after Samuel had died, exactly the same circumstances that are recorded in Luke 16 concerning the rich man and Lazarus.


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

1 Kings 22 has nothing to do with the context of this post.

The scriptures in 1 Samuel 28:15-20 record what Samuel said to Saul after Samuel had died, exactly the same circumstances that are recorded in Luke 16 concerning the rich man and Lazarus.


JLB

It has a lot to do with this, the witch at Endor actually called up a demon, a lying spirit that posed as Samuel. The Devil and demons can do this sort of thing...

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[JLB]

It has a lot to do with this, the witch at Endor actually called up a demon, a lying spirit that posed as Samuel. The Devil and demons can do this sort of thing...

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Once again, we have the scriptures that completely disagree with you.


10 And Saul swore to her by the Lord, saying, "As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing." 11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me." 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!" 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 1 Samuel 28:10-15


The scriptures record for us the truth.

The scriptures record for us that Samuel, not a lying spirit, spoke to Saul.

If you decide to change what the scriptures say, and scratch out the phrase, "Samuel said", and write in it's place, "a lying spirit said", so that the scriptures "line up" with what you believe, then that is between you and The Holy Spirit.

I know it is hard for you to grasp, when you have believed something for so long and then you find out what you believe is not true, you have to "come up" with a theory that disproves what the Word actually says.

Seems you are reading this account with some naivete, you are assuming that everything that everyone says is truth. Factor this into your thinking concerning the witch at Endor...

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

... you are assuming that everything that everyone says is truth.


I believe what the scripture says... The witch of Endor did not write 1 Samuel 28.


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

And then apparently you believe that parts of the scripture are not true...

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead know not anything.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead do not praise God.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

No work, no intelligence, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave.

The dead are dead, they return to dust...

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

They are asleep, awaiting a resurrection...

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Asleep in the dust of the earth. The dead are not in heaven or hell, they are dead, including Samuel.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

In the graves, dead...

 

[JLB]

And then apparently you believe that parts of the scripture are not true...

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead know not anything.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead do not praise God.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

No work, no intelligence, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave.

The dead are dead, they return to dust...

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

They are asleep, awaiting a resurrection...

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Asleep in the dust of the earth. The dead are not in heaven or hell, they are dead, including Samuel.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

In the graves, dead...

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:32

Abraham was not dead, however his body was asleep in the dust, but Abraham, who is not a body but a spirit is, was alive in the heart of the earth, as Jesus taught us about Abraham and as the scripture teaches us about Samuel.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

the dead refers to the body.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

The person who wrote 1 Samuel, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote - ... Now Samuel said to Saul.

This is a conversation between Samuel and Saul. This is Holy Scripture.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WRITTEN BY THE WITCH OF ENDOR!

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do."

16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."

20 Then immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.

Again, this is a conversation between Samuel [red letters] and Saul [blue letters] recorded for us by the hand of God, for our admonition and understanding.

This is a true story, just like the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham.


JLB

And the person who wrote Genesis and Ecclesiastes was also under the inspiration of God. If all you're going to do is argue those verses of Scripture then have at it. If you're interested in reconciling "all" of Scripture then we can discuss it.

 

[Butch5]

And then apparently you believe that parts of the scripture are not true...

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead know not anything.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

The dead do not praise God.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

No work, no intelligence, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave.

The dead are dead, they return to dust...

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

They are asleep, awaiting a resurrection...

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Asleep in the dust of the earth. The dead are not in heaven or hell, they are dead, including Samuel.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

In the graves, dead...

That's why I'm just letting it go. It doesn't appear to me that it matters.