The Rich Man & Lazarus

[JLB]

How can you make this claim in light of the bigger context?

As I have shown you, by the context.

You don't just get to decide that Jesus is speaking in a parable.

The context tells you.

Jesus doesn't use names, especially three different peoples names in a parable.

If this was a parable, what was the explanation of the parable that He explained to His disciples?

No warning from Jesus, such as:

"Now learn this parable from the fig tree:

Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: "Behold, a sower went out to sow... "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:[explanation]

Another parable He put forth to them, saying:

No parables in the verses preceding His story.

We have no introduction that Jesus is speaking in a parable, and more importantly, we have no explanation from Jesus of what the parable means.

Finally, we have no request from the disciples for an explanation. Why?

Because Jesus was not speaking a parable.


JLB

What was He speaking of then?

Being Blessed because you are rich and being cursed because you are not, is the context and the mindset that Jesus addressed with His view of the afterlife that was in its present state of existence when Jesus spoke theses words.

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



The Pharisee's interrupted Jesus as he was teaching His disciples.

This teaching was for His Disciples [us] as well as the Pharisee's who were present.

Their mindset being that because they were children of Abraham they were blessed with material wealth.

Jesus, taught them and us that just because a person is rich, does not necessarily mean they/we are blessed.

The word Blessed as associated with the Abraham covenant, and carries the meaning of financial wealth, health as well as salvation.

The Pharisee's wrongly assumed that by their wealth, they were blessed, ie: destined for eternal life with God.

A good study of the Abraham Covenant, will help you to understand these things.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Is it possible that although technically this is not a parable (according to some definitions) Jesus used commonly known phrases (like the bosom of Abraham) in his teachings?

I would think that the expression Abraham's Bosom carried a significant meaning, in that day.

I haven't found this expression in any other scripture that Luke 16 though.

It is interesting to note that the heart of the earth was called Paradise by Jesus as well.


Thanks, JLB

 

[farouk]

Is it possible that although technically this is not a parable (according to some definitions) Jesus used commonly known phrases (like the bosom of Abraham) in his teachings?

I think that the fact that the Hebrew (and Aramaic?) language is saturated with Old Testament references, that even someone not omniscient could soon figure at least oblique hints to some Old Testament truth. (Paul, who sat at the feet of Gamaliel, is probably a case in point.) The Himself being omniscient would have a far greater consciousness of this.

 

[Brother Mike]

So by unanimous agreement we have got rid of hell...I wish it was that easy(I don't think God would agreed).

I already said this before...........

for those that think it's a Parable, then you make Jesus out to be a liar........ For Jesus claimed Abraham said something that you don't believe Abraham did. Jesus committed perjury.

That is shameful ...................... very shameful. It shows the lack of respect here for the King of Kings and I am embarrassed.

Mike.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

As I have shown you, by the context.................No parables in the verses preceding His story.

You've done no such thing. In fact, you've ignored the greater context only focusing on the story itself. Jesus had been telling stories, giving illustrations, and delivering parables all the way back to chapter 14! Why do you ignore this FACT and remove the Rich Man & Lazarus from the greater context that is full of parables and illustrations?

You don't just get to decide that Jesus is speaking in a parable.

True. The context as you said, along with whether the story falls in line with what is elsewhere taught in scripture about a subject are what should be used to understand whether or not a story is literal or an allegory.

Jesus doesn't use names, especially three different peoples names in a parable.

And you know this to be a fact because? I take it you've heard or read every parable or illustration Jesus ever spoke. Or maybe you have read something I have not that lays out the rules for parables and it in no uncertain terms disqualifies a story from being a parable if names are used.
Why assume that if names are used the story must therefore be literal and not an allegory or illustration?

We have no introduction that Jesus is speaking in a parable, and more importantly, we have no explanation from Jesus of what the parable means.

Jesus didn't always unveil the meaning of his illustration to those that were not his disciples. Matthew 13:13 says as much. If you look back to the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32, you won't find Jesus giving an explanation afterwards either. The parable speaks for itself.

Finally, we have no request from the disciples for an explanation. Why?

If you pay attention to who Jesus audience was, it was NOT just his disciples, it was the Pharisees and scribes as well (Luke 15:2). And it is to them (the Pharisses) that he directs His reproof (Luke 16:14-15). Immediately after talking about them, Jesus begins with The Rich Man & Lazarus. That is the context JLB! It's a context that is surrounded by other parables and it's a context that has Jesus addressing a group that he had warned time and time again about losing their perceived birth right as children of Abraham and heirs to the Kingdom of God. That is the light under which Jesus is said to have delivered the story of The Rich Man & Lazarus.

Notice that nowhere in the surrounding context is the subject death or the afterlife. If Jesus all of a sudden shifted subjects to this topic, as you asked earlier; why didn't he explain that he was doing so and what the relevance was to his audience?
Also notice what Jesus did point out in the story. He made it a point to identify the Rich Man as an Israelite that was a descendant of Abraham to whom was given the Law and the Prophets.

 

[Brother Mike]

Notice that nowhere in the surrounding context is the subject death or the afterlife. If Jesus all of a sudden shifted subjects to this topic, as you asked earlier; why didn't he explain that he was doing so and what the relevance was to his audience?
Also notice what Jesus did point out in the story. He made it a point to identify the Rich Man as an Israelite that was a descendant of Abraham to whom was given the Law and the Prophets.

So then it be possible that Jesus just described a real life situation that He saw in the realm of the spirit to make this point? This being since he used Abraham's name, and claimed Abraham had said. Does it really matter if it's a parable or a real situation? It does not change the meaning of what Jesus said, just in this example he used a real place with real people.

If the meaning is the same, then it don't matter right?

Or does it matter because I don't want to believe in the place Jesus mentioned, so therefore it must be a parable? Everything I don't want to believe, becomes spiritual or some parable.

Because it being a real place or a parable does not change a thing, unless I don't want to believe in Hell, so I interpret it that way based on what I want to believe.

Give me one other Parable Jesus used a Greek Title for a name of a place and used real people................... Just one so that we know the difference between parable and not parable.



Mike.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So by unanimous agreement we have got rid of hell...I wish it was that easy(I don't think God would agreed).

I already said this before...........

for those that think it's a Parable, then you make Jesus out to be a liar........ For Jesus claimed Abraham said something that you don't believe Abraham did. Jesus committed perjury.

That is shameful ...................... very shameful. It shows the lack of respect here for the King of Kings and I am embarrassed.

Mike.

I believe this to be a parable.
It is not the point as to whether this information is literal about the next world, whether it refers to a state before the final judgment, or to a lasting state.
Though the language (Abraham's bosom) is surely symbolical, it speaks for real destinies for men.
The images clearly express that God's verdict for men is irreversible.

 

[Brother Mike]

I believe this to be a parable.
It is not the point as to whether this information is literal about the next world, whether it refers to a state before the final judgment, or to a lasting state.
Though the language (Abraham's bosom) is surely symbolical, it speaks for real destinies for men.
The images clearly express that God's verdict for men is irreversible.

Abraham's Bosom is a Greek title and hence are real place. The problem I have with this being a parable is that Jesus lied about what Abraham said. I don't know why believers think it's OK to misrepresent someone like that. Jesus puts Father Abraham in a region of Hell before the Religious leaders. Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead meaning that Jesus put the Father Abraham in Hell with no way out in their minds.

So, you believe I can claim to put you in places and say things about you that are not true as long as I call it a parable. You really believe that allenwynne? I thought much better of you, but as we continue to speak with one another I guess things about our character comes out.

Mike.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So then it be possible that Jesus just described a real life situation that He saw in the realm of the spirit to make this point?

Yes, I guess it is possible.

since he used Abraham's name, and claimed Abraham had said.

The fact that Abraham's name was used means nothing as it relates to whether or not this story was a mere allegory or a depiction of actual events. Using the name and representation of a known figure to illustrate a point is farely commonplace.

Does it really matter if it's a parable or a real situation?

It does matter because if it is a real situation, then that means something as it related to life after death. If it's a real situation then it stands as evidence that a purgatory-like place (Hades) exists and is where the dead live. (the dead live is an oxymoronic statement)

It does not change the meaning of what Jesus said, just in this example he used a real place with real people.

It kinda does.

Or does it matter because I don't want to believe in the place Jesus mentioned, so therefore it must be a parable?

It matters because we want to get the proper understanding and know (to the extent that we can) what the truth of the matter is. So I guess a bigger subject to examine is what does the Bible teach about death, man's nature, as well as man's existence during death. The passage in Luke must be understood to fit/harmonize with what the Bible teaches on these subjects.

 

[stovebolts]

Hope everyone realized that Satan loves the old bait and switch... and for those who fell into it, I hope this post opens your eyes.

What is more important? The intent Jesus is trying to convey, or arguing if this is a real story, or a parable?

If we spent more time on what Jesus was teaching and what he was trying to convey, we wouldn't get side tracked on the rest of the stuff.

Parable or real, the intent of Jesus is still the same... and that carries more weight than arguing if it's real, or a parable.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Abraham's Bosom is a Greek title and hence are real place.

Abraham's bosom is not a title Bro Mike. Hades is the Greek word that is used in verse 23 that tells the reader the place. Abraham's bosom is not a place but rather is describing a benefitt Lazarus now has, that of being in the favored position of Abraham which makes him a heir to the promises.

The problem I have with this being a parable is that Jesus lied about what Abraham said. I don't know why believers think it's OK to misrepresent someone like that.

Poetic license does not a liar make Bro Mike. The only way Jesus could be accused of lying is if He said the story was a real event and it was not. He never said such things. Admittedly he never said it was not either, but the story itself as well as the greater context of scripture lends more credibity to the notion that it was an allegory than it does to the idea that it was an account of real events.

 

[Brother Mike]

It does matter because if it is a real situation, then that means something as it related to life after death. If it's a real situation then it stands as evidence that a purgatory-like place (Hades) exists and is where the dead live. (the dead live is an oxymoronic statement)

Just what I figured......... This is the real issue, not having to do with anything Jesus was trying to point out. It means we have to deal with a real place called hell.

So then we need other scriptures to back up the existence of Hell as in a place for punishment. It's no longer about the parable, it's what we want to believe about a place where people suffer.

Still, there are no other Parables where Jesus used a real name, real place and Quoted someone that is real.

Jesus quoted Abraham, and would Jesus really just make up something that the Father Abraham had said? Would Jesus really do that?

Would you like someone to do that with you? Calling that a parable would make that OK?

The Jesus I know would not do that, and would tell the Saduceess that Abraham was indeed in Hell. That would have gone against their religious thinking because they did not believe in a resurrection from the dead. That is just How Jesus was, breaking it down what was real. He did not misquote Abraham.

So if His integrity is not in question then we need to find other scriptures pointing to this place where there is torment.

Do we have such scriptures or even the concept of it? If we do then we can reexamine this statement Jesus made about Abraham and this place called Abraham's bosom. If we don't then it must be a parable.

Mike.

we wouldn't get side tracked on the rest of the stuff.

Parable or real, the intent of Jesus is still the same... and that carries more weight than arguing if it's real, or a parable.

Well, Truth Over Tradition has just broken down why it's important for this to be a Parable or Not a Parable. His Insight outweighs the message Jesus was giving as pertaining to us. We know by the Holy Spirit that the beggar was mistreated and have other instruction not in Parables to tell us that the Rich man only loved his wealth and did not use it for good. We know all this already because of our relationship with the Lord and other scriptures. Those that first heard what Jesus said did not have that concept, we do.

That just leaves this place called Abraham's Bosom. That was Truth Over Traditions point.

Mike.

 

[stovebolts]

Well, Truth Over Tradition has just broken down why it's important for this to be a Parable or Not a Parable. His Insight outweighs the message Jesus was giving as pertaining to us.

And to do so is to tragically detour from the intent of Jesus.

Psalms 49:13-14 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings. They are like sheep and are destined to die; death will be their shepherd (but the upright will prevail over them in the morning).

Who was Jesus speaking to at the time? I suggest both the Pharisees and his disciples.

I believe what Jesus is addressing, is wealth that does not address poverty or suffering and those who put their faith in wealth and become blinded to the needs of those around them, yet they are blinded to it because they themselves refuse to see it.

What I find amazing, is that the beggar is carried to the rich man's house which infers somebody had to care enough about him to bring him there. This same beggar is then carried to Abraham's bosom, and I think this is an important note, because for those who are able to see this without getting mired into "other" arguments, we can see that Jesus is always showing us the "way" which is narrow, and few people find it.

Of course, there is much more to learn from this story, but I know that there are others who would rather argue around the fringes than to look into the mirror... and that's kinda sad.

 

[Brother Mike]

And to do so is to tragically detour from the intent of Jesus.

unfortunately It's all about the reality of Hell for those here. reading the post the argument is about the place Jesus described, not what Jesus was actually trying to convey. However, Jesus would never make up something Abraham said. It's wrong, we are told about not to gossip (Saying things about others that are true, not true) and some don't have enough respect in the Lord Jesus to comprehend that.

Pro 20:19 He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, (pseudomai) for my sake.

pseudomai
1) to lie, to speak deliberate falsehoods
2) to deceive one by a lie, to lie to
Part of Speech: verb

There are folks here that believe Jesus did exactly this. I have their names for future postings as you don't really want to deal with people that think this about the Lord. If Abraham did not say what Jesus said he said, or was where Jesus said he was then Jesus lied.......... I know that not the case.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

Who was Jesus speaking to at the time? I suggest both the Pharisees and his disciples.

I believe what Jesus is addressing, is wealth that does not address poverty or suffering and those who put their faith in wealth and become blinded to the needs of those around them, yet they are blinded to it because they themselves refuse to see it.

Thank you, Stove! I am reminded of another parable. This one is about silver talents, or is it? You already know, so it's safe for me to paraphrase. 10 Talents of silver to one? One talent of silver to another. The insight into the one who buried his God-given gift in the dirt included an observation about God Himself, "I know you are a hard man..." or something to that effect. It could actually be two talents that were given, but pardon me, my focus is broader here. They were all given talents according to their respective abilities.

What do we do with the talents and gifts that are given? Do we put them into the sand and dirt and pack them down into our own satisfaction of ourselves, congratulate ourselves along the way for a job well done? Do we insist that our foundation is firmer or better than other foundations, all the while neglecting the need to finish the roof work?

Or do we invest in others? What do we learn about the one? Is his talent of silver not taken from him and given to the one who has Ten? I can not help but wonder what the Spirit says to us here, what this says to me. Me personally as I search myself and ask God to assist in this most relevant task.

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION],

I believe that the story is a parable, does it detract one ounce from the intent of Jesus, or is it when we try to argue that which Jesus wasn't aiming to address where we begin to wander from the intent of Jesus?

Did the disciples say, "This is a real story" while the Pharisees said, "It is only a story, a poor parable at best" or was this a mute point to the original listeners? This brings me to the point at which you say, "Jesus would never make up something Abraham said" and I can hear the Pharisees saying, "We have no oral tradition or written account where Abraham ever said anything like this, thus, Jesus is a liar and what he says is a parable and his disciples argue back, "But Jesus is the word made flesh,and before Abraham, Jesus was!". I do hope your starting to see the foolishness of this argument. More so, I hope that you are able to see how the main point of Jesus is lost around the fringes.

The reality of hell? What if we focused more on living out what Jesus taught us to pray, "Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". What we do matters because what we do either brings a bit of heaven to earth, or it brings a little hell on earth. It must have been hell for the poor beggar in his short life on earth, but when those that cared enough for him carried him to where he needed to be, I can only think that he will be carrying me to those same pearly gates when my time comes. But more so, I wait for the day where I'll be able to carry my brother to those gates... and that starts with today.

Now then, I say this is a parable. And now you accuse me of calling Jesus a liar. Shame on you, but I forgive you anyway Brother.

In the arms of our Lord and Savior, may grace be upon you [because I know] you have ears to hear and eyes to see.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you, Stove! I am reminded of another parable. This one is about silver talents, or is it?

Ahh yes, those who have been given a blessing, but refuse to do anything with it to help those in need much like those found in Luke 16:1-14 that use the same blessings to build their own enterprise for self gain and notariaty; who unjustly use that which God has given them for a specific purpose for their own gain at the cost of those in need.

 

[Sparkey]

Ahh yes, those who have been given a blessing

Yes, the parable found in Matthew 25:14-30 that discusses "talents" -- that taken with stuff found on WIKI to define the silver talent:

A talent (from Ancient Greek τάλαντον, talanton 'scale, balance') was a unit of weight of about 80 pounds (36 kg), and when used for money, it was the value of that weight of silver. As a unit of currency, it was worth about 6,000 denarii. Since a denarius was the usual payment for a day's labour, a talent was roughly the value of twenty years of work by an ordinary person. By modern standards, the 2009 US minimum wage was $7.25 per hour, which would amount to over $300,000 over 20 years, while at the median wage of $26,363, it would be a half-million dollars. The talent as used in the parable is the origin of the sense of the word "talent" meaning "gift or skill" as used in English and other languages.

That one from the Holy Spirit through Matthew, and the one you mention from Luke which some translators include a different currency, the mina.

The similar parable in Luke 19:12-27, the Parable of the Minas, is generally similar, but differences include the inclusion of the motif of a king obtaining a kingdom, and the entrusting of the servants with equal amounts, measured in minas rather than talents (1 talent = 60 mina). Additionally, Luke includes at the beginning an account of citizens sending a message after the Master to say that they don't want him as their ruler, and at the end Luke adds that the Master instructs that his opponents should be brought to him and then be slain.

I've not verified the details mentioned in WIKIpedia but bring it here because of the detail. My focus remains in the broad view. What is the Lord saying to ME personally? It is in my spirit that the answer is heard: It is given to all to work out their salvation before ME (saith the Lord), with fear and trembling. May we assist each other in that task? It is implicit and imperative that we do so that we may demonstrate our faith through our actions, one to another. I know of no other way.

 

[Brother Mike]

Now then, I say this is a parable. And now you accuse me of calling Jesus a liar. Shame on you, but I forgive you anyway Brother.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things....................,

So you see no difference in saying..................... It's as if StoveBolts preached a great message at that Bush memorial stadium and people got saved. That is what this guy is like, just a great guy.

Opposed to.

I know Stovebolts and he preached at Bush memorial stadium where people got saved.

So in your mind, People coming to you and asking you about your great preaching based on what I said (Though you never did such a thing) Is OK as Long as I call it a parable??

Really?

I hate to put you on my list Brother. Jesus never said it was a parable, we don't care what the Jews think because it's a Word to all of us and There is no other parable Jesus used real people and gave names to places.

I am disappointed.

Love you anyway.... just don't understand your thinking.

Mike.

 

[stovebolts]

I hate to put you on my list Brother. Jesus never said it was a parable, we don't care what the Jews think because it's a Word to all of us and There is no other parable Jesus used real people and gave names to places.

I am disappointed.

You have a list? :toofunny

Judge me by what I do... because in what I do is where you'll find my faith Brother. You are free to believe it is a real story, for whatever reason you convince yourself with. You see, I have no list and find the matter rather un-important.

Now then, do you disagree with how I have interpreted this story so far? Do you believe I am far from the main intent of Jesus? Show me where kind sir and that will be a discussion worth having. ;)

regards