The Rich Man & Lazarus

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=13142]Sparrowhawke[/MENTION],

Have you considered this verse and how it relates to this topic?

Deuteronomy 4:6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”
Where the Pharisees in Luke 16 being that light to the nations? Or had they missed the mark? Even more, I believe they were teaching others to miss the mark by making more of what wasn't, than what was.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

 

[Sparkey]

Love you anyway.... just don't understand your thinking.

Mike.

Emphasis MINE (saith the sparrow)
[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION]

Put me on your list, please. Your prayer list, that is. I need it.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

This is the real issue, not having to do with anything Jesus was trying to point out. It means we have to deal with a real place called hell. So then we need other scriptures to back up the existence of Hell as in a place for punishment. It's no longer about the parable, it's what we want to believe about a place where people suffer.

Slow down BM, it's not about Hell or Heaven it's about Hades, the place of departed souls where both the good and the bad reside. Again, Abraham's Bosom is not a place, it is simply a reference to where Lazarus was in relation to Abraham from the perspective of the Rich Man. If the story is literal then Lazarus, the rich man, and Abraham were all in Hades, a place for all disembodied souls that has a gulf that separates those in comfort from those in torment.

So we need other scriptures to back up the existence of this Hadean realm where the dead coexist before we assert that the story in Luke 16 CAN possibly be anything more than a parable.

 

[Sparkey]

Have you considered...

I am now, my friend. I very much like your observation that Jesus was speaking to two separate audiences. He was keenly aware of the hearts of his audience.

Where the Pharisees in Luke 16 being that light to the nations?

Some may have been, yes. In General, of course no. Others? And especially those who heard the rebuke of Jesus? It could have been much later, after the death of Jesus that they, before or maybe even as they reclined on their deathbed, that these things were recalled to them. I don't know these things but I do know that we are able to plant seeds, can give water for growth and that some are given to harvest too. All this work is done. We celebrate the glory of God as seen here on this earth, and as celebrated in the unseen things that are yet to be revealed.

Was Saul listening in from behind a bush maybe? We have no record of that or anything like that. To answer my own question, no. He was not. I do know that some Pharisees were saved. More than one. There is a mystery about how God reserves men for his purpose. I do not know these things. But I've heard of it, whispered to us by the One who Saves.

Lol - don't get me going, I share too much sometimes and may easily be seen as the one who rightly promised during the time of his initial Meet and Greet with Jesus, "I'll be a fool for you. I will give YOU the glory!"

Sometimes I find that particular promise effortless. ;)

 

[farouk]

Have you considered...

I am now, my friend. I very much like your observation that Jesus was speaking to two separate audiences. He was keenly aware of the hearts of his audience.

Yes, 'know your audience' is good advice for a preacher, as well!

The rich man and Lazarus were in rather different categories. The New Testament speaks of 'all sorts and conditions of men'.

 

[reba]

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Is he asking for H2o or The Living Water?

 

[farouk]

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Is he asking for H2o or The Living Water?

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION]:

I think there may also be an implication of the Living Water, because Abraham replies about the 'great gulf' fixed between the eternally blessed and the damned. (I wouldn't be dogmatic, but it seems so.)

Blessings.

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION],
Here is a thread I started a long time ago.. which I forgot all about until just now lol.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=51339&highlight=bosom

It may give you a better perspective on what I believe before you make any erroneous assumptions on what I believe, and what I dont' believe.

 

[farouk]

This is a different Lazarus (of course) from the Lazarus who was brother to Mary and Martha of Bethany, and whom the Lord Jesus raised from the dead.

 

[Sparkey]

Is he asking for H2o or The Living Water?

ed! OH NO! More questions and here I am almost unable to resist the urge to try to answer even it if makes me out to be a fool. Pardon me for this as I turn my Moderator trained and argumentative mind toward this conundrum. It is wiser for me to keep my mouth shut and to be thought a fool, than to open it and prove myself to one and all... that being said, I begin.

So now then, we have a case where somebody alleges that they know what happens when we leave our bodies. That being the case, we may wonder about an apparent fallacy, that specifically known as the fallacy of begging the question. This happens when the answer is presumed in the initial question. The question that is being begged is this: "What body are they in, if they are no longer in their physical bodied." This leads to a can of worms in the minds of some.

Does Jesus know this? He never used my words but said something that may indicate that he did. Paraphrase again (pardon the birdbrain who speaks): I do not come to give peace to this world but to set it aflame. Wait, that's not what He said, that is quoted better as, ""I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword", and others have noticed and called this part of the Lesser Commission. It is of the controversial statements reported of Jesus in the Bible by the Holy Spirit.

There are some who may understand this to be more than a parable. That's fair and I do not argue that point. It is the Word of God, spoken through the Logos of God, as reported by those Sent of God (apostles are they called). But still and within my unquiet mind, the part of me that seeks to be inhabited by the Peace of Christ, the part that seeks the Mind of Christ in me and in the hearts of others, and by seeking, I state implicitly that I do not yet have, that part continues:

If this is a true an very literal explanation of heaven, does this mean, or may I conclude that this means that when I am in heaven, I will be treated to a glimpse of those whom I love as they are in Hell? I notice also that Jesus did not accuse the Rich man of any specific sin. It is different than the explicit insight of the prayer of the Pharisee who was compared to the man who would not lift eyes to heaven, choosing instead to beat his breast and confess, "I am not worthy."

Also, the poor man mentioned (Lazarus) is not proclaimed a righteous man. We are given a glimpse of an undesirable outcome and asked to look at what is seen as the Judgment of God and apply it to ourselves. If I were to take liberties with the world of Jesus and to extend them beyond the normal boundaries of conversation to the implications thereof, I could foolishly conclude that all the homeless (by the sake of their poverty) are bound for heaven. Now we do know that God is indeed concerned for the widow and the orphan and the poor, but we also know that this concern is not to be taken as an argument for a modified "universal salvation" position based on the lack gianormous size of our bank accounts.

Okay, enough from me. I've said too much.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things...................., So you see no difference in saying..................... It's as if StoveBolts preached a great message at that Bush memorial stadium and people got saved. That is what this guy is like, just a great guy. Opposed to. I know Stovebolts and he preached at Bush memorial stadium where people got saved. So in your mind, People coming to you and asking you about your great preaching based on what I said (Though you never did such a thing) Is OK as Long as I call it a parable?? Really?

Nancy Pelosi, Lohn Behner, and President Obama were discussing things together in the oval office when former New Mexico Gov and Libertarian Gary Johnson entered the room. Indignantly, the 3 elected officials looked at Mr. Johnson before President Obama addressed him telling him that he does not belong because he's not a big government guy and that he must immediately leave before the secret service is called in to escort him out.

Before Mr. Johnson could reply, the light flickered and an image of Thomas Jefferson becomes visible and Thomas Jefferson says, "Myself and your forefathers have directed this outsider here to remind you that the America we founded was to be a nation of the people, not for the politicians. You all have gotten powerful and wealthy through political posturing, but you and the like will not be allowed to continue your devaluing of America for the time is coming and now is that the American people will stand up and unite under God to insure that each person's right to life. liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not enfringed upon by big government politicians."

Would the writer of this allegory be a liar, talebearer, or gossiper here? I think not. The writer is simply using a known and revered figure to illustrate a point about the role of government. The same can be said for Jesus in the account in Luke 16.

 

[Brother Mike]

Now then, do you disagree with how I have interpreted this story so far? Do you believe I am far from the main intent of Jesus? Show me where kind sir and that will be a discussion worth having.

The Story there Brother?

I hate using Jewish tales and fables......However..........

Pharisees believed that Abraham went right to God the idiom "Abraham's Bosom" became synonymous with "heaven", the place of final reward, the place of the eternal feast. The most common being paradise.

What Jesus did was place the exact location of this place for them. It's in Hell........... Separated by a gulf.

Heaven is real, and I don't see any "parable" here.

If Jesus said Abraham said something, then you can count on it!!!!

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I guess these must all be parables...............

NO, If Jesus said someone said something, they said it, it happened. We don't lie because we don't like what they said about a real place called hell. Jesus went there, and brought those waiting on the promise out of there. He was down in the belly Like He said No sign be given but that of Jonah and brought them up out from hell which many had seen.

Not buy it........... Parable??

Put me on your list, please. Your prayer list, that is. I need it.

Not exactly the same List StoveBolts was headed to but if two touch and agree, it's as good as done. Stovebolts will have to do works to get of my list though, I just don't have the grace Jesus carries.



Mike.

 

[farouk]

I must admit that Nancy Pelosi et al. had not come to mind when I read the passage in the New Testament...

 

[Sparkey]

Not exactly the same List StoveBolts was headed to but if two touch and agree, it's as good as done. Stovebolts will have to do works to get of my list though, I just don't have the grace Jesus carries.



Mike.

No, but you have a friend in me that stands in the gap and with confidence assures you that this is a good place to stand. It is a Jesus place. Recall, Isaiah 6:8, "Who will go?"

Send me, Lord. And Isaiah had just confessed in the style of the Prophet a woe (curse) upon himself for his is a man of unclean lips, of a people of unclean lips. I am nowhere near that, I am not a man's man, not a "prophet's Prophet", not a statesman's Statesman like Isaiah who stood before kings. I have no where near the skill he had, yet I too echo his need for my lips to be sealed by that fire that was quickly delivered to his lips by that hot coal from Heaven. I don't think he was hurt at all. I think he praised the Lord of Lord and the God of all heaven and all earth.

Go there with me, go there by yourself, go there with Isaiah who lived his life, in part, for your benefit.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I must admit that Nancy Pelosi et al. had not come to mind when I read the passage in the New Testament...

I had to laugh after I posted it myself. Kinda wish the ghosts of the forefathers would 'spook' some of our political leaders into better policy making.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Is he asking for H2o or The Living Water?

ed! OH NO! More questions and here I am almost unable to resist the urge to try to answer even it if makes me out to be a fool. Pardon me for this as I turn my Moderator trained and argumentative mind toward this conundrum. It is wiser for me to keep my mouth shut and to be thought a fool, than to open it and prove myself to one and all... that being said, I begin.

So now then, we have a case where somebody alleges that they know what happens when we leave our bodies. That being the case, we may wonder about an apparent fallacy, that specifically known as the fallacy of begging the question. This happens when the answer is presumed in the initial question. The question that is being begged is this: "What body are they in, if they are no longer in their physical bodied." This leads to a can of worms in the minds of some.

Does Jesus know this? He never used my words but said something that may indicate that he did. Paraphrase again (pardon the birdbrain who speaks): I do not come to give peace to this world but to set it aflame. Wait, that's not what He said, that is quoted better as, ""I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword", and others have noticed and called this part of the Lesser Commission. It is of the controversial statements reported of Jesus in the Bible by the Holy Spirit.

There are some who may understand this to be more than a parable. That's fair and I do not argue that point. It is the Word of God, spoken through the Logos of God, as reported by those Sent of God (apostles are they called). But still and within my unquiet mind, the part of me that seeks to be inhabited by the Peace of Christ, the part that seeks the Mind of Christ in me and in the hearts of others, and by seeking, I state implicitly that I do not yet have, that part continues:

If this is a true an very literal explanation of heaven, does this mean, or may I conclude that this means that when I am in heaven, I will be treated to a glimpse of those whom I love as they are in Hell? I notice also that Jesus did not accuse the Rich man of any specific sin. It is different than the explicit insight of the prayer of the Pharisee who was compared to the man who would not lift eyes to heaven, choosing instead to beat his breast and confess, "I am not worthy."

Also, the poor man mentioned (Lazarus) is not proclaimed a righteous man. We are given a glimpse of an undesirable outcome and asked to look at what is seen as the Judgment of God and apply it to ourselves. If I were to take liberties with the world of Jesus and to extend them beyond the normal boundaries of conversation to the implications thereof, I could foolishly conclude that all the homeless (by the sake of their poverty) are bound for heaven. Now we do know that God is indeed concerned for the widow and the orphan and the poor, but we also know that this concern is not to be taken as an argument for a modified "universal salvation" position based on the lack gianormous size of our bank accounts.

Okay, enough from me. I've said too much.

Ahem, now that you have said too much, I must say that if I can get through all that you have just said, I will probably be in agreement with you.

 

[Sparkey]

I will probably be in agreement with you.

Especially the caution about foolish speaking, I hope. Love flow from me to you too, but that is not mine, it is a gift that I am not worthy of.

 

[stovebolts]

The Story there Brother?

I hate using Jewish tales and fables......However..........

Pharisees believed that Abraham went right to God the idiom "Abraham's Bosom" became synonymous with "heaven", the place of final reward, the place of the eternal feast. The most common being paradise.

What Jesus did was place the exact location of this place for them. It's in Hell........... Separated by a gulf.

Heaven is real, and I don't see any "parable" here.

If Jesus said Abraham said something, then you can count on it!!!!

Am I now arguing that there is no heaven? Am I arguing there is no hell? And off to the fringes we go, for that seems more important than what Jesus would have us to think, and do!

A story is a story, regardless if it is true or not. Before you jump to conclusions, let me remind you about Nathan and David. Nathan told David a story about a little ewe lamb and a rich man who stole it from a poor man, do ewe lambs really exist because the story Nathan told was a parable? And because what Nathan said to David was a parable, was it then void of it's intent?

You see, it's not if this story is real, but what implications the story has in reality.

 

[Brother Mike]

Is he asking for H2o or The Living Water?

According to some, Jesus just made the whole thing up............ The only "PARABLE" where Jesus used real names, gave a real Place the Jews would have understood and quoted what Abraham said, just all made up.

It would have been real water. Jesus Said God can destroy both soul and body in hell so somehow there is some type of body that goes down there.

The rich man never asked how to get out of the place but to warn others of the place by sending the dead. So, I he was thinking more naturally in his torment and most likely meant real H20.

No need for Jesus to tell us and warn us about a make believe place though, but some here think that.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

The reality of our conversation is known by each of us. What one sees in the Word of God as taught by the Spirit of God is given to him by His Counselor, the very Holy (utterly apart from all sin) Holy, Holy Breath and Spirit of God. This includes specific and adapted revelations that are matched with great precision to the hearts of him who is in need, by Him who hears hearts.

What then? May I speak of my known? With the expectation to be heard? Yes, we may. May we shake the dust from our feet so that on the Day of Judgment it will be worse for them than for the ones who were present in the place called Sodom and Gomorrah? I have, in the past, been afraid of this to the point where in my spirit, I took the sandals from my feet and offered them to the Lord (again, I speak of that which happened in my spirit, not something that I've read).

Again, and in my spirit, the sandals were returned to me, by my God who, if I am correct in my understanding, knew what He was doing when he mentioned such things. Brother against brother? Christ is not one? I say nay! WE stand and we turn our eyes to you, oh, Healer of hearts, asking that we too are given each the attention that we need, that our hearts, my heart (Your heart, he whispers softly to His God) is bound up and healed, that my thirst for righteousness is answered, and not only me, but also all of Thee, even those parts of you that are shared in our brothers and sisters seen here and in the flesh.