The Rich Man & Lazarus

[farouk]

Is he asking for H2o or The Living Water?

:shocked! OH NO! More questions and here I am almost unable to resist the urge to try to answer even it if makes me out to be a fool. Pardon me for this as I turn my Moderator trained and argumentative mind toward this conundrum. It is wiser for me to keep my mouth shut and to be thought a fool, than to open it and prove myself to one and all... that being said, I begin.

So now then, we have a case where somebody alleges that they know what happens when we leave our bodies. That being the case, we may wonder about an apparent fallacy, that specifically known as the fallacy of begging the question. This happens when the answer is presumed in the initial question. The question that is being begged is this: "What body are they in, if they are no longer in their physical bodied." This leads to a can of worms in the minds of some.

Does Jesus know this? He never used my words but said something that may indicate that he did. Paraphrase again (pardon the birdbrain who speaks): I do not come to give peace to this world but to set it aflame. Wait, that's not what He said, that is quoted better as, ""I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword", and others have noticed and called this part of the Lesser Commission. It is of the controversial statements reported of Jesus in the Bible by the Holy Spirit.

There are some who may understand this to be more than a parable. That's fair and I do not argue that point. It is the Word of God, spoken through the Logos of God, as reported by those Sent of God (apostles are they called). But still and within my unquiet mind, the part of me that seeks to be inhabited by the Peace of Christ, the part that seeks the Mind of Christ in me and in the hearts of others, and by seeking, I state implicitly that I do not yet have, that part continues:

If this is a true an very literal explanation of heaven, does this mean, or may I conclude that this means that when I am in heaven, I will be treated to a glimpse of those whom I love as they are in Hell? I notice also that Jesus did not accuse the Rich man of any specific sin. It is different than the explicit insight of the prayer of the Pharisee who was compared to the man who would not lift eyes to heaven, choosing instead to beat his breast and confess, "I am not worthy."

Also, the poor man mentioned (Lazarus) is not proclaimed a righteous man. We are given a glimpse of an undesirable outcome and asked to look at what is seen as the Judgment of God and apply it to ourselves. If I were to take liberties with the world of Jesus and to extend them beyond the normal boundaries of conversation to the implications thereof, I could foolishly conclude that all the homeless (by the sake of their poverty) are bound for heaven. Now we do know that God is indeed concerned for the widow and the orphan and the poor, but we also know that this concern is not to be taken as an argument for a modified "universal salvation" position based on the lack gianormous size of our bank accounts.

Okay, enough from me. I've said too much.

Ahem, now that you have said too much, I must say that if I can get through all that you have just said, I will probably be in agreement with you.

Sparrowhawke's posts are often very deep, anyway, so it's often not a work of a moment to figure whether we each of us agree or not, or whether in fact he has actually successfully convinced us.

 

[Sparkey]

Sparrowhawke's posts are often very deep,

Where does deep call to deep? Is it not at the very font of His waterboook? Does not our soul thirst and pant after Him? "My soul thirst after thee, oh Lord", and this is spoken not of me, but of us, the People who are His, and to whom we say, "He is our God."

God alone is the Great I AM. He is and was and shall be Him who does not change nor is there any shadow of turning in Him. Me? I need change. We celebrate change as seen as we continue to eat of the Word of God as given and watch in awe of Him who does the work, wondering all along, what He meant when He said, "Behold, I have shown the end from the beginning." Part of this, the reason for saying this, is an assurance, that we may know that He is God.

Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me.

It's a Psalm 42 thing. Something that we share. Spoken through a man of God for our benefit and also for his. WE are becoming a peculiar people, called and walking to Him who speaks.

My sheep hear my voice [even when my voice comes from Brother Mike or allenwynne or Stove or reba or Turn or Burn or from a birdbrain]. We hear You in us. You join us. We are joined in a fight, not against flesh and blood, but a much more personal struggle, a battle between Spirit and Flesh and this is seen in our members, it is seen and known for we are YOURS. You are are owner, we are bought and paid for by a price too great for me to fathom.

Believers! Stand. Look unto God and unbow yourself. Your redeemer draweth nigh.

 

[farouk]

Sparrowhawke's posts are often very deep,

Where does deep call to deep? Is it not at the very font of His waterboook? Does not our soul thirst and pant after Him? "My soul thirst after thee, oh Lord", and this is spoken not of me, but of us, the People who are His, and to whom we say, "He is our God."

God alone is the Great I AM. He is and was and shall be Him who does not change nor is there any shadow of turning in Him. Me? I need change. We celebrate change as seen as we continue to eat of the Word of God as given and watch in awe of Him who does the work, wondering all along, what He meant when He said, "Behold, I have shown the end from the beginning." Part of this, the reason for saying this, is an assurance, that we may know that He is God.

Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me.

It's a Psalm 42 thing. Something that we share. Spoken through a man of God for our benefit and also for his. WE are becoming a peculiar people, called and walking to Him who speaks.

My sheep hear my voice [even when my voice comes from Brother Mike or allenwynne or Stove or reba or Turn or Burn or from a birdbrain]. We hear You in us. You join us. We are joined in a fight, not against flesh and blood, but a much more personal struggle, a battle between Spirit and Flesh and this is seen in our members, it is seen and known.

Believers! Stand. Look unto God and unbow yourself. Your redeemer draweth nigh.

I love Psalm 42, too.

Yes, I agree about the Lord's coming.

Blessings.

 

[reba]

Is he asking for H2o or The Living Water?

According to some, Jesus just made the whole thing up............ The only "PARABLE" where Jesus used real names, gave a real Place the Jews would have understood and quoted what Abraham said, just all made up.

It would have been real water. Jesus Said God can destroy both soul and body in hell so somehow there is some type of body that goes down there.

The rich man never asked how to get out of the place but to warn others of the place by sending the dead. So, I he was thinking more naturally in his torment and most likely meant real H20.

No need for Jesus to tell us and warn us about a make believe place though, but some here think that.

Mike.

Thank you for being direct....

Do we not need the Living Water to keep us from torment?

The way you use the term "making up the whole thing" as if parable teaching is some how not a good thing does nothing to support your thoughts...

As far as if hell is a place.. I dont know... Is hell in the center of the earth? Is heaven a place does it have dirt, trees, H2o rivers i dont know... I do know Heaven is in the presence of God
Hell is void of His presence. We call computer sites places .... we talk about going to that place in your heart and we dont always mean by the surgeon. I am not making a call one way or the other on is this story a parable or not. I am more inclined to see the need of the Living Water.

 

[farouk]

I see now that some people who want to deny the reality of hell (and I'm not referring to anyone here) might want to say that in the account of the rich man and Lazarus the Lord Jesus was only speaking in figurative language. I guess that it would be hard to explain away all the Lord Jesus' many references to hell, though.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I guess no one agrees with my post #27 made earlier today.

 

[farouk]

I guess no one agrees with my post #27 made earlier today.

#27, I'll check it out.

 

[Sparkey]

Post #27 (to save the wear-n-tear on the clicky-clicky mice of many)

So by unanimous agreement we have got rid of hell...I wish it was that easy(I don't think God would agreed).

I already said this before...........

for those that think it's a Parable, then you make Jesus out to be a liar........ For Jesus claimed Abraham said something that you don't believe Abraham did. Jesus committed perjury.

That is shameful ...................... very shameful. It shows the lack of respect here for the King of Kings and I am embarrassed.

Mike.

I believe this to be a parable.
It is not the point as to whether this information is literal about the next world, whether it refers to a state before the final judgment, or to a lasting state.
Though the language (Abraham's bosom) is surely symbolical, it speaks for real destinies for men.
The images clearly express that God's verdict for men is irreversible.

 

[farouk]

I believe this to be a parable.
It is not the point as to whether this information is literal about the next world, whether it refers to a state before the final judgment, or to a lasting state.
Though the language (Abraham's bosom) is surely symbolical, it speaks for real destinies for men.
The images clearly express that God's verdict for men is irreversible.

Even a parable has a heavenly meaning.

Although often a parable is defined as an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. And I guess in the account here, neither the rich man, nor Lazarus (nor Abraham, come to think of it) are on earth.

Your thoughts are interesting, anyway.

 

[Brother Mike]

I guess no one agrees with my post #27 made earlier today.

I did comment on it, and same category with the rest that believes Jesus just makes things up that people have said quoting them.

If Jesus Said Abraham said something, then Abraham did as Jesus saw something spiritually in a place Called Abraham's Bosom. Jesus quoted Abraham exactly as Jesus would never commit perjury.

Every single Parable Jesus told us, the birds take the seed, the Son returns home all could have been real places. Jesus used Parables to describe spiritual concepts and principles.......

Jesus:

So is like the Kingdom of God

Because Jesus did not lie about what Abraham said, this is an actual place that nobody had seen and it would not be a parable. Parables were used to describe places like Heaven or principles. We get a straight description of Hell and the fire that is there.

So I did not miss you partner, you must have missed my response.

Mike

 

[Butch5]

How can you make this claim in light of the bigger context?

As I have shown you, by the context.

You don't just get to decide that Jesus is speaking in a parable.

The context tells you.

Jesus doesn't use names, especially three different peoples names in a parable.

If this was a parable, what was the explanation of the parable that He explained to His disciples?

No warning from Jesus, such as:

"Now learn this parable from the fig tree:

Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: "Behold, a sower went out to sow... "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:[explanation]

Another parable He put forth to them, saying:

No parables in the verses preceding His story.

We have no introduction that Jesus is speaking in a parable, and more importantly, we have no explanation from Jesus of what the parable means.

Finally, we have no request from the disciples for an explanation. Why?

Because Jesus was not speaking a parable.


JLB

What was He speaking of then?

Being Blessed because you are rich and being cursed because you are not, is the context and the mindset that Jesus addressed with His view of the afterlife that was in its present state of existence when Jesus spoke theses words.

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



The Pharisee's interrupted Jesus as he was teaching His disciples.

This teaching was for His Disciples [us] as well as the Pharisee's who were present.

Their mindset being that because they were children of Abraham they were blessed with material wealth.

Jesus, taught them and us that just because a person is rich, does not necessarily mean they/we are blessed.

The word Blessed as associated with the Abraham covenant, and carries the meaning of financial wealth, health as well as salvation.

The Pharisee's wrongly assumed that by their wealth, they were blessed, ie: destined for eternal life with God.

A good study of the Abraham Covenant, will help you to understand these things.


JLB

Oh believe me, I have a good understanding of the Abrahamic covenant. I've written on it. I have a question for you. What purpose is there for Jesus to suddenly break into this discourse and what does His statement about adultery just prior mean?

 

[farouk]

 

[Butch5]

Here's something to ponder. Jesus said the rich man was in Hades and the rich man is suffering the torment of the flame. However, Hades is not the place of torment, Gehnna, the Lake of Fire, is where the flames are. Jesus speaks of torment in Gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the their worm does not die.

If Jesus is stating something about life after death one has to why He would have the rich man in Hades rather than Gehenna.

 

[Butch5]

Here's a two part question for those who think the passage speaks of the afterlife. Is being rich a reason to be sent to the flames? Is one guaranteed Abraham's bosom because they are poor?

What's interesting about this passage is what is not stated. There is no mention of belief or disbelief on the part of either man. There's no mention of what they did either. I've heard some say that this is an actual event because it names Lazarus. If that is the case why isn't the rich man named also?

 

[JLB]

Thank you, Stove! I am reminded of another parable. This one is about silver talents, or is it?

Ahh yes, those who have been given a blessing, but refuse to do anything with it to help those in need much like those found in Luke 16:1-14 that use the same blessings to build their own enterprise for self gain and notariaty; who unjustly use that which God has given them for a specific purpose for their own gain at the cost of those in need.

Based on what Luke 16 teaches, what happens to such a person?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Slow down BM, it's not about Hell or Heaven it's about Hades, the place of departed souls where both the good and the bad reside.

And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

We can learn from Jesus that Hades was a place of torment, and Hades has fire where people are tormented.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The reality of our conversation is known by each of us. What one sees in the Word of God as taught by the Spirit of God is given to him by His Counselor, the very Holy (utterly apart from all sin) Holy, Holy Breath and Spirit of God.

Well, It seems that Brother Mike is being led by the Spirit of Truth, in his perception of what Jesus taught us in Luke 16.

Hell is something that Jesus taught about throughout the gospels.

Here is a quote from Him -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

JLB

 

[Northman]

Oh yes yes...SEND LAZARUS! Pompous wealthy attitude that got him there in the first place and he still doesnt see, story or not.

 

[Brother Mike]

Here's something to ponder. Jesus said the rich man was in Hades and the rich man is suffering the torment of the flame. However, Hades is not the place of torment, Gehnna, the Lake of Fire, is where the flames are. Jesus speaks of torment in Gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the their worm does not die.

If Jesus is stating something about life after death one has to why He would have the rich man in Hades rather than Gehenna.

That is a very good question, If Jesus said Hades has fire though, there is fire.

tartaroō used once was to mean the lower regions of Hades and Gehenna.

Jesus brought new spiritual principles that had yet been heard so matching the existing language to convey the true meaning was not always easy. Christ just meant smeared upon or anointed but takes on a whole different meaning with Jesus. Best word they had though. The Jews Had Messiah which meant anointed king of God.

We can learn from Jesus that Hades was a place of torment, and Hades has fire where people are tormented.

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

If there be a lower Hell, then a upper also. Hades the region of the dead appears to be the topmost part and it does not get any nicer the more you go down.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Is he asking for H2o or The Living Water?

According to some, Jesus just made the whole thing up............ The only "PARABLE" where Jesus used real names, gave a real Place the Jews would have understood and quoted what Abraham said, just all made up.

It would have been real water. Jesus Said God can destroy both soul and body in hell so somehow there is some type of body that goes down there.

The rich man never asked how to get out of the place but to warn others of the place by sending the dead. So, I he was thinking more naturally in his torment and most likely meant real H20.

No need for Jesus to tell us and warn us about a make believe place though, but some here think that.

Mike.

Thank you for being direct....

Do we not need the Living Water to keep us from torment?

The way you use the term "making up the whole thing" as if parable teaching is some how not a good thing does nothing to support your thoughts...

As far as if hell is a place.. I dont know... Is hell in the center of the earth? Is heaven a place does it have dirt, trees, H2o rivers i dont know... I do know Heaven is in the presence of God
Hell is void of His presence. We call computer sites places .... we talk about going to that place in your heart and we dont always mean by the surgeon. I am not making a call one way or the other on is this story a parable or not. I am more inclined to see the need of the Living Water.

Thank goodness we have teachings from Jesus that will help us know the truth, so we can be free from deception.

I for one am thankful, that the Lord taught us about these things, such as Luke found in Luke 16, as the world today is constantly trying to explain away the truths found in the gospels.

The world try's to rob us and our children of any truth that says, this is right and this is wrong.

Jesus taught us the Truth, and gave us the consequences for living in whatever way seems right to us.

For there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is the way of death.

Jesus said, I am the Way, the truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me.

The world says do whatever feels good, do what ever seems right.

What should the response of a Church that has not lost it's light, which is the ability to expose...

To expose things that are in darkness, and say this is sin.

To say, a life of sin leads a person to hell.

Hell is a place of eternal torment.

Jesus died to set you free and save your soul from an eternity in hell fire.

But the Church that has lost it's salt and light, says we love you, God loves you, there is no place of eternal damnation, it was just Jesus telling us parables.

[see Joel Osteen]

Go ahead, live in sexual immorality, or lie and and steal and do drugs, because a God of Love would never punish you.

That is the message that the world wants the Church to preach.


JLB