there trained like the J.W what is said i have a face book friend in Scotland. just last week i sat down and watched her pastor on you tube. at no time did he even come close.to mentioning the junk i have read. he preached a Christmas message and it was good. yes he was reformed minister .
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
The Saving results of the Death of Christ !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
This is one of the problems.
Persons to to a reformed church and some pastors do not say the whole truth and
everything sounds so good.
The Westminster Confession of Faith is a lot softer than Calvin's Institutes.
If a person would read the Institutes (all 1,000 pages?!) I don't even understand why
anyone would want to be of the reformed faith. It is contrary to everything taught in the N.T.
We can have different opinions on doctrine.
Usually, on these threads, a person will explain why he believes as he does.
Most times I could understand how they would come to that conclusion.
In the case of the reformed I never understand how they could understand their
faith as they do.
They change the character of God. This goes beyond understanding a verse in a
different way.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Post 178, Do you want to discuss it ? Thats why I posted it.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
You interested in discussing post 178 ? Its about the saving effects of the death of Christ.
God hates all sinners who were not chosen before the foundation of the earth
This is plainly taught in:
Deuteronomy 18:12 For everyone who does these things is utterly repulsive to the Lord;
Deuteronomy 25:16 For everyone who does such things, everyone who acts unjustly [without personal integrity] is utterly repulsive to the Lord your God.
Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 2:4-9; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; Malachi 1:3-4; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20
Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil [person] dwells with You. 5 The boastful and the arrogant will not stand in Your sight; You hate all who do evil. 6 You destroy those who tell lies; The Lord detests and rejects the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. KJV
Psalm 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And His soul hates the [malevolent] one who loves violence. 6 Upon the wicked (godless) He will rain coals of fire; Fire and brimstone and a dreadful scorching wind will be the portion of their cup [of doom]. 7 For the Lord is [absolutely] righteous, He loves righteousness (virtue, morality, justice); The upright shall see His face.
Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You cannot look favorably on wickedness.
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God
Summary
Nothing is more absurd than to imagine that anyone beloved of God can eternally perish or shall ever experience His everlasting vengeance. It is only in ones imagination that one can state, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” This statement is false! Should Noah have had a banner across the side of the ark comforting the drowning rebels with the words, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner”? There is nothing in man justifying God’s love; there is nothing in God requiring He love man. It is a result of confused thinking to say, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” Sin is not a separate thing that can be hated and punished by itself. Sin is the rebellious choice of a rational creature to despise His Creator and violate His commandments. God hates the actor and activity of this rebel creature. He will send persons to hell, not sins. The saying is a profane lie!
Regarding the Elect
God’s elect are not sinners or workers of iniquity, for God has viewed them as holy and without blame since before the world began, when He chose them in Christ Jesus their Surety (Ephesians 1:3-6)!
God hates sin and sinners because He is holy
- God is holy, and His absolutely holy nature requires that He hate sin wherever He finds it.
- The definition of true holiness and righteousness includes hatred for sin (Psalm 45:7; Hebrews 1:9).
- Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You cannot look favorably on wickedness.
- Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is holy ... undefiled ... and separate from sinners (Hebrews 7:26).
- God is so pure in His holiness that angelic sin was not accepted in His sight (Job 15:15-16).
- God’s holiness requires that He hate sin (Psalm 5:5; Psalm 73:20b; Proverbs 6:16-19; Zechariah 8:17).
- God is holy, and this character trait of God cannot be neglected (Isaiah 6:1-7; Revelation 4:8).
- There is no place in heaven for anything that defiles, for God and heaven are holy (Revelation 21:27).
- Consider how the holiness and justice of God poured out wrath on Jesus for the elect’s sins.
- If He forsook His Son and took pleasure in bruising Him ... because of our sins ... how much more shall He forsake, bruise, and hate those without faith, who continue in rabid rebellion?
Billions of people have gone to hell because God did not love them. The is empirically evident by the fact that they (billions of people) never heard the gospel which is a prerequisite for salvation (faith cometh by hearing) because God never afforded them this opportunity. If "libertarian free will" (indifference) be true and God loved (volition to favor) everyone salvifically without exception then logic dictates He would have afforded at least a chance of salvation by hearing the gospel and applying the questionable doctrine of "libertarian free will" (indifference, making choices spontaneously, that is that the choices we make are in no wise conditioned by or determined by any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition)
Summary
If God loves (favors) everyone salvifically then He must love (volition to favor) those He hates and hates those He loves ... or the Bible has contradictions. Example: Esau I hated [and loved] ... Deuteronomy 18:12 For everyone who does these things is utterly repulsive to the Lord [but He loves them and died for those people that repulse Him];
If God loves (volition to favor) those sent to hell for eternity then the bar is set very low for the outcome of God's love (favor) or His power to saved those He loves (favors).
i have experienced the saving effects of the death of Christ=== Grace== FORGIVNESS . when i was lost in my sins Christ paid the price so i could be saved .he tasted death for ALL not some. there is no discussion only what reformed teaches . i been down this road many years ago in carm forum. i been suspended because i stood up to the diehards
i dont know how the admin or mods even allow this.. i stand up for my beliefs you ban me from posting.. get a back bone shut this garbage gown .or i will start aa post on asas
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
If we take my verses and your verses we have an apparent conflict in the bible.
This is a problem.
Billions of people have gone to hell because they did not believe in God and did not have any faith in Him and did not accept the sacrifice that
Jesus made for them.
God cannot love everyone to salvation. Persons are saved by the above sentence.
God loves all His creation....He is sorry for those that do not chose Him.
But not all creation, individually, are His children.
Not only the evil cannot stand in the blinding presence of God....
even WE could not before we were saved. I was not such a "bad person"....and yet Revelation 21:27 referred to me too.
I guess God hated us before and loves us now .... something even YOU do not believe because you do not believe God could change, especially that He has
no emotions.
You understand that I'm saying that God loves everyone the same.
This is not what I'm saying and I will no longer repeat this.
You also keep misinterpreting Libertarian free will.
It is not indifferent.
Every choice we make is conditioned by something.
Libertarian free will states that God does not do the choosing for us.
We are free moral agents.
The wrath of God poured out on Jesus for everyone's sins...
not just the "elect".
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
He tasted death for all that His death effected Salvation for and that's it!
you have NO scripture to back your strawman theology up
I did answer your question. I will rephrase it. God, because of His love for all, even though it repented God that He created man as they became wicked, but did find favor in one that we should all come to faith in God and His Son Christ Jesus, Genesis 6:5-8 who gives all a chance to repent and turn back to Him before it's to late like that time of Noah and the flood, Genesis 6:5-8.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up, 2 Peter 3:9, 10.
Is it God's fault that many reject Him, or is it God that decides Susan will be mine because I love her, but I don't think I love Billy so he will not be my own. No, He gives us freedom to chose.
We know the saving grace of God through Christ Jesus, but how many missed opportunities did we miss witnessing and testifying of Him to others that could have had a ripple effect.
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Proverbs 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Proverbs 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Proverbs 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
These are the seven things God hates being an abomination to Him, but yet we see many Christians, even in these forums, falling in these categories. Does that mean God does not love those who are His own as none of us are without sin?
Not a problem from my point of view as I don't believe God loves (volition to favor) everyone the same amount. I agree, this is a problem from your view point.
Agreed ... billions of people were never told of the gospel. God is more than capable of ensuring that they did at least hear the gospel for 'libertarian free will' is of no use if the person(s) are ignorant of the choice ... this all assumes libertarian free will (indifference in regard to having salvific faith) is true.
Not sure what "God cannot love everyone to salvation" means. Sounds like you are saying God doesn't want everyone to be saved ... but that conflicts with previous statements you made. (confusing)
Again, people that have not heard the gospel are not saved by the gospel and therefore, since God did not give them a chance to believe one must conclude God does not favor (agape love = favor) them. Now, God could have had all people that would not be saved, be saved by dying before the age of accountability if He loved (favored) them ... but He didn't and therefore this is overwhelming evidence that God does not love (favor) everyone the same.
Aside: I read later that you don't believe God loves everyone the same. (I don't know why you believe now in this regard).
I don't know what you mean by "God loves His creation ... it lack definition. The rain falls on the good and the evil ones, and to that extent God loves (favors) everyone .....
Not sorry enough to save them, for He is more than capable of seeing everyone is saved. Example: billions of cases of those dying before the age of accountability.
This is in conflict with verses like:
- Eph. 1:4 I knew you before the foundation of the world [God knew who you would be so why change His mind] (note: Open Theists don't think God can't look into the future so for those Arminians this point is mute)
- Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”
- Job 22:2 “Can a vigorous man be of use to God, Or a wise man be useful to himself? 3 “Is it any pleasure or joy to the Almighty that you are righteous? Or is it of benefit to Him that you make your ways perfect?
- God's immutability ... – God cannot be eternally what he was; that is, he cannot have a true eternity, if he had a new knowledge, a new purpose, a new essence; if he were sometimes this and sometimes that, sometimes know ‘this and sometimes know that, sometimes purpose this and afterwards hath a new purpose. Stephen Charnock
Hmmm, then we are at an impasse as I don't understand your theology in this area. Who does God love and why? Who does God hate and hate? Does God hate everyone that never heard the gospel and thus sends to hell? Does he love everyone that dies before the age of accountability even though they did nothing to deserve it?
Maybe we are of the same opinion. God loves the elect and hates the non-elect. If so, we are in agreement.
????? But I am sure that is not where you are coming from.
Well, you may have your own definition. Dr. Google does not agree.
- " free will is incompatible with causal determinism, and agents have free will. They therefore deny that causal determinism is true. " .... incompatible with causal determinism = indifferent
- free will is logically incompatible with a deterministic universe .... [your will is not determined, it is indifferent] (Wikipedia)
- man operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to this view, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.” .... Gotquestion.org ... man destiny not determines by anything (indifferent)
- statistically, if libertarian free will be true then, like the flipping of a coin 1/2 would believe and 1/2 would not believe ..... that is emperically shown to be not true
Gee.... so you don't think God loves everyone the same .... I am so confused.... so many nuisances of belief.
So, the billions of people God does not present the Gospel too ... I guess you agree with me that God hates them?
The sheep are those who heard their masters voice and follow Him. Before that they were no different than the goats who close their ears to the masters voice and go off on their own.
Jesus paid a debt He did not owe so that by God's grace through His sacrifice we can come to Him as He draws us as we hear the voice of our master calling us to repentance for by His blood made atonement for all (not a limited atonement) who will draw unto Him and receive God's free gift of grace for by which we are saved after coming to Christ.
Still waiting for you to explain how a persons becomes His sheep to begin with?
With scripture.
Please share the scriptures that teach us God hates sinners, who were not chosen before the foundation of the world.
If God blots a person out of the book of life, does that mean they were sinners who were hated by Him?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Question: If God loves everyone, then why did He not bring the gospel to so many; the consequence of which is these ones the God suppositely loves (a volition to favor) end up in hell. (Faith cometh by hearing ... since they did not hear they do not have faith which is the instrument God decided to use for salvation).
Aside: Maybe you agree with me and don't think God loves everyone without exception to the degree that He gives them an opportunity to be saved. Again, talking about those that have not heard the gospel.
Sorry, but I don't see how you have addressed the group of people that have not heard the gospel. You spoke of mankind in general but not those that have not heard the gospel. Again I ask you to address the group of people who have not heard the gospel and therefore have 0.0% chance of salvation .... As you stated in the verse above: God wishes all (everyone without exception) to repent, yet does not afford them the opportunity to hear the gospel which is a prerequisite to salvation (faith cometh by hearing), then "how can you state God loves (volition to favor) this group of people".
Aside: Maybe you agree with me and don't think God loves everyone without exception to the degree that He gives them an opportunity to be saved. Again, talking about those that have not heard the gospel.
No, they are depraved and God did not cause them to be depraved. God is not obligated to give them faith. To the elect He gives faith, mercy and repentance, to the unelected He gives justice.
I agreed to this. Those like Susan are put IN CHRIST because they are loved (volition to favor) and those like Billy He hates (Volition to not favor). The results validate either love or hate. Deuteronomy 18:12 For everyone who does these things is utterly repulsive to the Lord;
We are "in Christ". Christ's payment for our sins has been imputed to us and Christ's righteousness have been imputed to us (Romans 5:18-19; 2 Corinthians 5:21 ) We are saved by Christ and Christ alone; and not by Christ's work and our work of belief.
Please explain how a person comes to be “in Christ”.
First of all, this scripture plainly says it’s the things we do, actions we ourselves take, that cause us to be repulsive to the Lord.
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7
Secondly, Deuteronomy 18:12 is a reference to instructions about practicing witchcraft, sorcery, or necromancy like the nations that dwelt in the land.
“When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14
God’s people who practice these things will be punished the same way as unbelievers.
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8
JLB
Last edited: