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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

JLB said:
Sorry Deb,

But those scriptures are just outdated.

Everyone knows the new (reformed) way to understand the scriptures is like this...


For God so loved the world His sheep that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him is predestined to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life.
Calvinism 3:16


This is the correct way to read and understand this passage. Once you get this “true understanding” about the message of salvation then you will be able to “see clearly” what the rest of the scriptures truly mean.


Example:


But in every nation whoever His sheep that fear Him and work righteousness have been justified is accepted by Him.
Acts 10:35


This is an example of properly “interpreting“ this verse that you quoted from the book of Acts.


Please use this new reformed “understanding” when studying the scriptures.






JLB
Click to expand...
:nod Great post.
 
brightfame52 said:
Please see Op!
Click to expand...
I saw the OP.
Here is what you posted:

The religion of man doesn't believe that the death of Christ alone results in the Eternal Salvation of all for whom Christ died, namely His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 or His Church Eph 5:25, or His People Matt 1:21.

His death for His people produces saving results Jn 12:32-33 23,24

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


I asked you what John 12:32 means to you...I don't see the answer in the above O.P.
You posted it but you didn't explain it.
I don't see where in John 12:32 it states that Jesus died for HIS PEOPLE.
It states that Jesus will draw ALL MEN to Himself.
The fact the He died and brought forth much fruit also does not answer what I'm asking you

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The above states clearly that Jesus will draw all men to Himself.
All men.
From the beginning of time God has revealed Himself to man.
God draws man to Himself. Romans 1:19-21

However, not all men will answer to the drawing.
John 3:16 states that WHOEVER believes will be saved eternally.
These are those that answered the drawing of Jesus, which was for all men.
His death and resurrection was a visible sign of the call of God to all mankind.


John the Baptist said:
BEHOLD, THE LAMB OF GOD, THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.
John 1:29


Paul stated:
...WE HAVE FIXED OUR HOPE ON THE LIVING GOD, WHO IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF BELIEVERS.
1 Timothy 4:10

John stated the following immediately after saying that Jesus has given us His spirit, so he is not speaking about believers when using the word WORLD:
AND WE HAVE BEHELD AND BEAR WITNESS THAT THE FATHER HAS SENT THE SON TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
1 John 4:14


Jesus' sacrifice was INTENDED for all....
But not all will accept it.


Please take the time to explain what John 12:32 means to you.
Thanks.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Well, if God loves everyone the same ... why does He love (volition to favor) babies, the aborted, miscarriages more than most of mankind? I keep harping on this point because it is a huge piece of evidence that God does not favor (love) everyone the same which is a focal point of your argument.
Fact: Up to 1800 approx. 40% of people born did not live past age 5, by 1960 20% did not live past age 5, now it is 2%. The current world abortion rate is 4% and the miscarriage rate if 25% (all info from father Google).

This is proof that a majority of people in heaven are there solely because of God and not libertarian free will (indifference of choice).
Click to expand...

FF, I don't understand the above. Sorry.

But here are some verses for you about God's love for His creations:

2 Thess 3:5 "May your hearts direct you to the love of God". (the persons are not saved yet)

Psalm 109:26 "Save me according to your steadfast love". (the person is not saved yet)

John 15:12 Love one another as Jesus has loved us. (Jesus is God)

2 Peter 3:9 God wishes that no one should perish.

1 John 4:9-10 God's love h as been made evident to us because He sent His only Son to die for us.

The N.T. teaches that there is joy in heaven over the salvation of one person.
Luke 15:7
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.


In the calvinist belief system God passes over most of humanity so I can understand how you feel that God is a hateful God.
God hates unrighteousness...but He wishes that all would come to Him.
Psalm 11:17
For the Lord is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.


Ephesians 4:22-24
..To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.


Philippians 3:9
...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

1 Timothy 2:4
God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Fastfredy0 said:
I agree there is one gospel. You can correct me here, but I believe you said those that have not heard the gospel can go to heaven. The conclusion is that you believe in two gospels of salvation.
Click to expand...

What would the other gospel be??
What was happening before the gospels?
Before Jesus?
Was no one in the O.T. saved?
HOW were they saved?

This is what it means that Jesus died for the whole world.
Through HIM persons with faith in the one true God are saved.


Fastfredy0 said:
Aside: Can you find a commentary on the internet that thinks someone can get to heaven without faith in Christ (I am not talking about the finer points of before Christ's death)
Click to expand...

I don't use commentaries on the internet.
I use the bible.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Romans 2:13-16
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Fastfredy0 said:
Aside2: Maybe your are on the fence now as you state you don't know the fate of those who have not heard the gospel ... which implies you think there may be two gospels.
Aside3: Your position needs clarification
Click to expand...

No one knows the fate of anyone except God.
Our faith must be in Jesus in whom we trust and follow as He instructed.
As for those who did not have the opportunity to hear the good news,,,I depend on God's mercy and justice.
Fastfredy0 said:
Hey, I thought you hung up your spurs for the next few days (Xmas) ... I wrote a response to something else you posted but didn't post because you were taking a sabbatical.
P.S. I are supposed to be 'fighting' with Bright

Have a great Xmas.... hope you hubby is feeling better.
Click to expand...

No fighting on this forum!
 
brightfame52 said:
He died to effect the Salvation of His Sheep, men and women from every nation, the world.
Click to expand...
you can keep on believing this till the next Christmas ..i dont care nor do i agree nor do i think your even close to right . no matter what scripture i use or anyone else. you reject it by add your own version twist. which does not line up with the word of God / so it looks like unless you can come up with something new it ends. all your material you present i read in carm forum years ago. i did a email exchange many years ago same thing your posting, it just dont compute
 
wondering said:
I saw the OP.
Here is what you posted:

The religion of man doesn't believe that the death of Christ alone results in the Eternal Salvation of all for whom Christ died, namely His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 or His Church Eph 5:25, or His People Matt 1:21.

His death for His people produces saving results Jn 12:32-33 23,24

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


I asked you what John 12:32 means to you...I don't see the answer in the above O.P.
You posted it but you didn't explain it.
I don't see where in John 12:32 it states that Jesus died for HIS PEOPLE.
It states that Jesus will draw ALL MEN to Himself.
The fact the He died and brought forth much fruit also does not answer what I'm asking you

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The above states clearly that Jesus will draw all men to Himself.
All men.
From the beginning of time God has revealed Himself to man.
God draws man to Himself. Romans 1:19-21

However, not all men will answer to the drawing.
John 3:16 states that WHOEVER believes will be saved eternally.
These are those that answered the drawing of Jesus, which was for all men.
His death and resurrection was a visible sign of the call of God to all mankind.


John the Baptist said:
BEHOLD, THE LAMB OF GOD, THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.
John 1:29


Paul stated:
...WE HAVE FIXED OUR HOPE ON THE LIVING GOD, WHO IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF BELIEVERS.
1 Timothy 4:10

John stated the following immediately after saying that Jesus has given us His spirit, so he is not speaking about believers when using the word WORLD:
AND WE HAVE BEHELD AND BEAR WITNESS THAT THE FATHER HAS SENT THE SON TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
1 John 4:14


Jesus' sacrifice was INTENDED for all....
But not all will accept it.


Please take the time to explain what John 12:32 means to you.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
I told you in the Op. It's the Sheep being drawn to Christ. All the Elect or the Church. The drawing is part of the Saving results, effects of the Cross.
 
jerry63935 said:
you can keep on believing this till the next Christmas ..i dont care nor do i agree nor do i think your even close to right . no matter what scripture i use or anyone else. you reject it by add your own version twist. which does not line up with the word of God / so it looks like unless you can come up with something new it ends. all your material you present i read in carm forum years ago. i did a email exchange many years ago same thing your posting, it just dont compute
Click to expand...
You don't have to agree. It's true anyway.
 
for_his_glory said:
YI, I'm a sister not a brother, LOL.
Click to expand...
Ooops, my bad.

for_his_glory said:
God is the word from the beginning unto the end and His word has always gone out into the world. It's man that has shut his ears to hear that of what is preached everywhere.
Click to expand...
Your ignored my question in your response above. I will try again. I can imagine why you don't have an answer, but here goes ... (Note: I am not talking about those the heard the gospel)
If God loves everyone (your contention) and we know that not everyone hears the gospel (a fact) and those that do not hear the gospel go to hell (faith cometh by hearing) as one is saved by faith alone. My question is: How can God love (defined as a volition to favor) those He has given NO CHANCE to be saved?
 
Fastfredy0 said:
My question is: How can God love (defined as a volition to favor) those He has given NO CHANCE to be saved?
Click to expand...
john 3:16-17 what part of that dont you understand .the book of John is all about God love toward us. his love our sins kept him on the cross GOD IS LOVE . do you think God loves the little babies who pass away at a early age. not knowing right from wrong? do you think God loves the aborted babies who never had a chance . if your reply is no your heart is seared
 
brightfame52 said:
I told you in the Op. It's the Sheep being drawn to Christ. All the Elect or the Church. The drawing is part of the Saving results, effects of the Cross.
Click to expand...
Brightfame....
Exactly WHAT did you explain in the O.P.???

I posted a verse:

John 12:32 says that Jesus will draw ALL MEN to Himself when He is lifted up (the way He died).

Where in that sentence does it state that it's only "THE SHEEP" being drawn to Christ?
Where does it say "THE ELECT OF THE CHURCH"?
Where does it say that the "DRAWING IS PART OF THE SAVING RESULTS"?

Caps are YOUR words.
A person cannot ADD words to scripture. It needs to be read as it is written.
If you add words you can change any verse to mean anything.

Please explain to those interested on your very own thread WHERE in John 12:32 it says all those statement you ADDED to that simple verse.

It seems to me that you bring to scripture preconceived ideas and try to fit them into what is being declared by the verse.
 
wondering said:
Brightfame....
Exactly WHAT did you explain in the O.P.???

I posted a verse:

John 12:32 says that Jesus will draw ALL MEN to Himself when He is lifted up (the way He died).

Where in that sentence does it state that it's only "THE SHEEP" being drawn to Christ?
Where does it say "THE ELECT OF THE CHURCH"?
Where does it say that the "DRAWING IS PART OF THE SAVING RESULTS"?

Caps are YOUR words.
A person cannot ADD words to scripture. It needs to be read as it is written.
If you add words you can change any verse to mean anything.

Please explain to those interested on your very own thread WHERE in John 12:32 it says all those statement you ADDED to that simple verse.

It seems to me that you bring to scripture preconceived ideas and try to fit them into what is being declared by the verse.
Click to expand...
You need to read it along with my other post that follows the op.
 
Christs death accomplished/effected both Justification and Reconciliation for them He died for, His Elect Rom 5:9-11

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement/reconciliation. 44
 
brightfame52 said:
You need to read it along with my other post that follows the op.
Click to expand...
You know, if I were a moderator, I'd close this thread down.
It's impossible to speak to you...
you don't answer questions...
you don't explain the verses you list....
you think that by listing some verse or other it explains what you think/believe...
well, it doesn't.

You are required to explain verses you post and to have the courtesy to reply to questions.

In post 178 you post Romans 5:9-11
You don't explain that either.
It does NOT say what you think it says....
you have to show WHY you think it states what you think it states.

This thread is absolutely useless.
 
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