The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[Randy]

All you had to say was by the death of Christ. You believe His offering Himself and His death are the same thing ?

Perhaps it can be seen as the same thing but it was by His "blood" that was noted more. The blood of the covenant. Purchased by His blood. Entered the true tabernacle in Heaven by His blood.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

 

[brightfame52]

Perhaps it can be seen as the same thing but it was by His "blood" that was noted more. The blood of the covenant. Purchased by His blood. Entered the true tabernacle in Heaven by His blood.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Blood is the same as His death, or His Offering Himself.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering

Impossible, since everyone who ever lived isnt converted into a new creation, made a kingdom of priest.

Please post my entire reply to you.
I'd appreciate it.

Again, I'll ask you what the following verse means....

1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I'd like you or anyone else to explain this.
Perhaps Fastfredy0 might care to since he gave you a like.

 

[jerry63935]

You believe His offering Himself and His death are the same thing ?

do you think they are different ? yes or no

 

[jerry63935]

Actually I am saying Christs death is effectual unto producing saving results, and you are against that, so its you limiting the power of God

just how do you come to this concussion ? i limit nothing scripture tells us he tasted death for everyone But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. i think you might ought to reword that...fact remains you dont define the word ALL for everyone you are taught only th elect. much like the picking of players for a ball game at recess . all the good players are chose the rest are bench warmers

 

[Fastfredy0]

1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I'd like you or anyone else to explain this.
Perhaps @Fastfredy0 might care to since he gave you a like.

Ah, one of 5 or so favorite verses of Arminians. Verses that use the word "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD". The basic argument one uses to discredit/question these verses is the ambiguous meaning of "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD". Studying the various uses of these words will show that "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD" do not always mean "EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION". That being easily demonstrated by Scripture, one must find other scripture to clarify the meaning. (Hermeneutics101: Use explicit verses to interpret implicit verses). Anyways, that is the general argument.

To the specifics ...
1 John 2:2 And He [that same Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins [the atoning sacrifice that holds back the wrath of God that would otherwise be directed at us because of our sinful nature—our worldliness, our lifestyle]; and not for ours alone, but also for [the sins of all believers throughout] the whole world [the ambiguous word]. AMP

There is one passage more than any other which is appealed to by those who believe in universal redemption, and which at first sight appears to teach that Christ died for the whole human race. This passage apparently, most favors the Arminian view of the Atonement, yet if it be considered attentively it will be seen that it does so only in appearance, and not in reality.
In the first place, the fact that this verse opens with “and” necessarily links it with what has gone before. We, therefore, give a literal word for word translation of 1 John 2:1 from Bagster’s Interlinear: “Little children my, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin; and if any one should sin, a Paraclete we have with the Father, Jesus Christ (the) righteous”. It will thus be seen that the apostle John is here writing to and about the saints of God. His immediate purpose was two-fold: first, to communicate a message that would keep God’s children from sinning; second, to supply comfort and assurance to those who might sin, and, in consequence, be cast down and fearful that the issue would prove fatal. He, therefore, makes known to them the provision which God has made for just such an emergency. This we find at the end of verse 1 and throughout verse 2. The ground of comfort is twofold: let the downcast and repentant believer (1 John 1:9) be assured that, first, he has an “Advocate with the Father”; second, that this Advocate is “the propitiation for our sins”. Now believers only may take comfort from this, for they alone have an “Advocate”, for them alone is Christ the propitiation, as is proven by linking the Propitiation (“and”) with “the Advocate”! Also the word “Comfort”, in such a case, belongs to none but believers; unto others in a state and condition of alienation, wrath is to be denounced, John 3:36. Thirdly, They are the "little children" to whom he writes, 1 John 2:1; whom he describes, verses 12, 13, to have "their sins forgiven them for his name's sake," and to "know the Father."
In the second place, if other passages in the New Testament which speak of “propitiation,” be compared with 1 John 2:2, it will be found that it is strictly limited in its scope. For example, in Romans 3:25 we read that God set forth Christ “a propitiation through faith in His blood”. If Christ is a propitiation “through faith”, then He is not a “propitiation” to those who have no faith! Again, in Hebrews 2:17 we read, “To make propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17, R. V.). A. W. Pink

In the third place, who are meant when John says, ...
... there's a many more reasons to show 1 John 2:2 does NOT apply to EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION ... if you really want I could go on ...

Aside 1: Interestingly, Arminians like to use John 3:16 to prove God loves everyone equally in regards to salvation use the same use of the word WORLD. So, due to their general understanding of how God operates (admittedly, we all have bias') they will subliminally insert into the verse as follows:
John 3:16 “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world [which is comprised of everyone without exception], that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] [because of their free well, the ability to choice one way or another given the same circumstances ... and not because God caused them to believe] shall not perish, but have eternal life.

A sample of the word WORLD use where it is apparent it does NOT mean "everyone without exception" as proposed by Arminians in John 3:16 follows:

1. Christ said, “Shew Thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “shew Thyself to all mankind”?(surely not).
2. When the Pharisees said, “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him?(surely not).
3. When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on the earth?(surely not).

Irrelevant Aside for comedic relief: Spend the morning fixing a plugged toilet in the dirt under my house. Note to others, don't let your son wipe their 3 year old's butt with non-degradable wipes. *giggles*

OK, brightfame52 can take it from here. *gets a box of popcorn and watches from the bleachers*

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, one of 5 or so favorite verses of Arminians. Verses that use the word "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD". The basic argument one uses to discredit/question these verses is the ambiguous meaning of "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD". Studying the various uses of these words will show that "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD" do not always mean "EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION". That being easily demonstrated by Scripture, one must find other scripture to clarify the meaning. (Hermeneutics101: Use explicit verses to interpret implicit verses). Anyways, that is the general argument.

I do believe that most on this forum know what you've stated.
The problem is that some might take a verse that actually means WORLD and change it to mean something else.

1 John 2:15 does NOT mean everyone in the world. WORLD means a system in this case.

John 3:16 does mean everyone in the world because God certainly does not love the SYSTEM of the WORLD.


Also, you keep calling me an Arminium (BTW Arminiams are from Armenia) ....
Since I do not know what Arminius believed - I wish you'd stop comparing me to those that do know him.
I'm a CHRISTIAN....
I follow the bible
Not a man.

To the specifics ...
1 John 2:2 And He [that same Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins [the atoning sacrifice that holds back the wrath of God that would otherwise be directed at us because of our sinful nature—our worldliness, our lifestyle]; and not for ours alone, but also for [the sins of all believers throughout] the whole world [the ambiguous word]. AMP

But it does not say what you've INCLUDED above.
It states that Jesus died NOT ONLY FOR OURS ONLY (the saved) BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
(caps in verse 1 John 2:2)

The word ALSO means that there are others involved in the verses BESIDES the saved.
You cannot add to a verse words which are not there or meanings which are not there.

There is one passage more than any other which is appealed to by those who believe in universal redemption, and which at first sight appears to teach that Christ died for the whole human race. This passage apparently, most favors the Arminian view of the Atonement, yet if it be considered attentively it will be seen that it does so only in appearance, and not in reality.
In the first place, the fact that this verse opens with “and” necessarily links it with what has gone before. We, therefore, give a literal word for word translation of 1 John 2:1 from Bagster’s Interlinear: “Little children my, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin; and if any one should sin, a Paraclete we have with the Father, Jesus Christ (the) righteous”. It will thus be seen that the apostle John is here writing to and about the saints of God.

Right.
John is writing about the children of God.....
but the word ALSO is including others ......see above.

And universal salvation was not taught by John or any of the other writers
so that is out of the question.

His immediate purpose was two-fold: first, to communicate a message that would keep God’s children from sinning; second, to supply comfort and assurance to those who might sin, and, in consequence, be cast down and fearful that the issue would prove fatal. He, therefore, makes known to them the provision which God has made for just such an emergency. This we find at the end of verse 1 and throughout verse 2. The ground of comfort is twofold: let the downcast and repentant believer (1 John 1:9) be assured that, first, he has an “Advocate with the Father”; second, that this Advocate is “the propitiation for our sins”. Now believers only may take comfort from this, for they alone have an “Advocate”, for them alone is Christ the propitiation, as is proven by linking the Propitiation (“and”) with “the Advocate”! Also the word “Comfort”, in such a case, belongs to none but believers; unto others in a state and condition of alienation, wrath is to be denounced, John 3:36. Thirdly, They are the "little children" to whom he writes, 1 John 2:1; whom he describes, verses 12, 13, to have "their sins forgiven them for his name's sake," and to "know the Father."

Nice try at explaining away a verse that clearly states something that the writer does not believe to be true.
This is eisegesis. NOT exegesis.

In the second place, if other passages in the New Testament which speak of “propitiation,” be compared with 1 John 2:2, it will be found that it is strictly limited in its scope. For example, in Romans 3:25 we read that God set forth Christ “a propitiation through faith in His blood”. If Christ is a propitiation “through faith”, then He is not a “propitiation” to those who have no faith! Again, in Hebrews 2:17 we read, “To make propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17, R. V.). A. W. Pink

In the third place, who are meant when John says, ...
... there's a many more reasons to show 1 John 2:2 does NOT apply to EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION ... if you really want I could go on ...

Aside 1: Interestingly, Arminians like to use John 3:16 to prove God loves everyone equally in regards to salvation use the same use of the word WORLD. So, due to their general understanding of how God operates (admittedly, we all have bias') they will subliminally insert into the verse as follows:
John 3:16 “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world [which is comprised of everyone without exception], that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] [because of their free well, the ability to choice one way or another given the same circumstances ... and not because God caused them to believe] shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I'd say the above is correct.
God loves everyone equally in regard to salvation.
But not all are His children, and not all will be with Him due to their own life choices.
My own opinion is that God does not love a person after he rejects God.
But please let's not get into this again...unless it has a lot to do with your acceptance of Calvinism.

A sample of the word WORLD use where it is apparent it does NOT mean "everyone without exception" as proposed by Arminians in John 3:16 follows:

1. Christ said, “Shew Thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “shew Thyself to all mankind”?(surely not).

In this case, THE WORLD meant everyone in Israel that Jesus came into contact with....both persons and the Rabbis and the Pharisees and Sadducees.

1. When the Pharisees said, “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him?(surely not).
2. When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on the earth?(surely not).

Ditto.


I dare say, I doubt Arminiuns are dumb.
Of course the above is correct.
That does not make everything else this person says correct.

Anyway, you should read the bible MORE
and what others have to say about it LESS.

Irrelevant Aside for comedic relief: Spend the morning fixing a plugged toilet in the dirt under my house. Note to others, don't let your son wipe their 3 year old's butt with non-degradable wipes. *giggles*

OK, brightfame52 can take it from here. *gets a box of popcorn and watches from the bleachers*

POINT WELL TAKEN!!!
As to @Brightfame....
I think that poster is a girl
and I think she doesn't like to speak much or answer questions.
Your popcorn might get cold.

 

[brightfame52]

do you think they are different ? yes or no

They're the same thing. Do you believe they're different yes or no?

 

[brightfame52]

just how do you come to this concussion ? i limit nothing scripture tells us he tasted death for everyone But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. i think you might ought to reword that...fact remains you dont define the word ALL for everyone you are taught only th elect. much like the picking of players for a ball game at recess . all the good players are chose the rest are bench warmers

How do I come to that conclusion? Easy, don't you believe that people Christ died for will be lost in hell ?

 

[brightfame52]

Ah, one of 5 or so favorite verses of Arminians. Verses that use the word "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD". The basic argument one uses to discredit/question these verses is the ambiguous meaning of "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD". Studying the various uses of these words will show that "ALL" or "EVERYONE" or "WORLD" do not always mean "EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION". That being easily demonstrated by Scripture, one must find other scripture to clarify the meaning. (Hermeneutics101: Use explicit verses to interpret implicit verses). Anyways, that is the general argument.

To the specifics ...
1 John 2:2 And He [that same Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins [the atoning sacrifice that holds back the wrath of God that would otherwise be directed at us because of our sinful nature—our worldliness, our lifestyle]; and not for ours alone, but also for [the sins of all believers throughout] the whole world [the ambiguous word]. AMP

There is one passage more than any other which is appealed to by those who believe in universal redemption, and which at first sight appears to teach that Christ died for the whole human race. This passage apparently, most favors the Arminian view of the Atonement, yet if it be considered attentively it will be seen that it does so only in appearance, and not in reality.
In the first place, the fact that this verse opens with “and” necessarily links it with what has gone before. We, therefore, give a literal word for word translation of 1 John 2:1 from Bagster’s Interlinear: “Little children my, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin; and if any one should sin, a Paraclete we have with the Father, Jesus Christ (the) righteous”. It will thus be seen that the apostle John is here writing to and about the saints of God. His immediate purpose was two-fold: first, to communicate a message that would keep God’s children from sinning; second, to supply comfort and assurance to those who might sin, and, in consequence, be cast down and fearful that the issue would prove fatal. He, therefore, makes known to them the provision which God has made for just such an emergency. This we find at the end of verse 1 and throughout verse 2. The ground of comfort is twofold: let the downcast and repentant believer (1 John 1:9) be assured that, first, he has an “Advocate with the Father”; second, that this Advocate is “the propitiation for our sins”. Now believers only may take comfort from this, for they alone have an “Advocate”, for them alone is Christ the propitiation, as is proven by linking the Propitiation (“and”) with “the Advocate”! Also the word “Comfort”, in such a case, belongs to none but believers; unto others in a state and condition of alienation, wrath is to be denounced, John 3:36. Thirdly, They are the "little children" to whom he writes, 1 John 2:1; whom he describes, verses 12, 13, to have "their sins forgiven them for his name's sake," and to "know the Father."
In the second place, if other passages in the New Testament which speak of “propitiation,” be compared with 1 John 2:2, it will be found that it is strictly limited in its scope. For example, in Romans 3:25 we read that God set forth Christ “a propitiation through faith in His blood”. If Christ is a propitiation “through faith”, then He is not a “propitiation” to those who have no faith! Again, in Hebrews 2:17 we read, “To make propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17, R. V.). A. W. Pink

In the third place, who are meant when John says, ...
... there's a many more reasons to show 1 John 2:2 does NOT apply to EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION ... if you really want I could go on ...

Aside 1: Interestingly, Arminians like to use John 3:16 to prove God loves everyone equally in regards to salvation use the same use of the word WORLD. So, due to their general understanding of how God operates (admittedly, we all have bias') they will subliminally insert into the verse as follows:
John 3:16 “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world [which is comprised of everyone without exception], that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] [because of their free well, the ability to choice one way or another given the same circumstances ... and not because God caused them to believe] shall not perish, but have eternal life.

A sample of the word WORLD use where it is apparent it does NOT mean "everyone without exception" as proposed by Arminians in John 3:16 follows:

1. Christ said, “Shew Thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “shew Thyself to all mankind”?(surely not).
2. When the Pharisees said, “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him?(surely not).
3. When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on the earth?(surely not).

Irrelevant Aside for comedic relief: Spend the morning fixing a plugged toilet in the dirt under my house. Note to others, don't let your son wipe their 3 year old's butt with non-degradable wipes. *giggles*

OK, brightfame52 can take it from here. *gets a box of popcorn and watches from the bleachers*

I like what you said about the word world and all and everyone etc.

But let me ask you about sinners Christ died for, the elect. Do you believe that Christ is their advocate , propitiation, even while they are in unbeiief,based upon the fact that He loves them and shed His Blood for them?

 

[jerry63935]

Easy, don't you believe that people Christ died for will be lost in hell ?

i have no idea what you are implying Christ died for all but not all will be saved other than that your to far out in left field for me

 

[jerry63935]

,based upon the fact that He loves them and shed His Blood for them

why are you twisting the word around Christ did in fact die for the lost . while we were yet sinners --->

Romans 5:8​

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” it dont get any more planer than that . its beyond me where you get your theology . many doctrines i can understand but this bit much

 

[Fastfredy0]

John 3:16 does mean everyone in the world because God certainly does not love the SYSTEM of the WORLD.

You've used your view of God to exegete the verse. This is a hermeneutic NO-NO.
World can mean many things. Just because you state one meaning is invalid (which you have not proven or really defined), there are still many others.

Also, you keep calling me an Arminium (BTW Arminiams are from Armenia) ....
Since I do not know what Arminius believed - I wish you'd stop comparing me to those that do know him.
I'm a CHRISTIAN....
I follow the bible
Not a man.

Arminian - relating to the doctrines of Jacobus Arminius
Armenian - in the Middle East are mostly concentrated in Iran, Lebanon, Cyprus, Syria, Jordan and Jerusalem, etc.

I was talking of the group known as Arminian. You have the same beliefs as Arminians and Open Theists in regard to "God love everyone without exception" and "God dies for everyone". I think that is what we are discussing. Yes, I know all your beliefs don't coincide with any "ism". Yes, I am definitely SURE you are a Christian (though you may not be one tomorrow as your 'libertarian free will' may cause you to change your mind. (I took a liberty there, as I don't know for sure your view on perseverance of the saints. Aside: I know you will be a Christian to the day you die, but then that is my reform doctrine.

No one follows the Bible 100% of the time for no one knows it all or understands it all. I know you try.

But it does not say what you've INCLUDED above.
It states that Jesus died NOT ONLY FOR OURS ONLY (the saved) BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
(caps in verse 1 John 2:2)

I repeat, the word WORLD is ambiguous. Therefore, you cannot be certain. You make it fit your understanding.
2 Corinthians 5:19 “To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, “not imputing their trespasses unto them”. Unless you are a universalist the word WORLD cannot mean 'everyone with exception'. It means 'everyone without distinction' IMO in these cases.

The word ALSO means that there are others involved in the verses BESIDES the saved.
You cannot add to a verse words which are not there or meanings which are not there.

"ALSO" simply means not only to the group Paul is addressing, but to every saint in the world. ALSO works for me. You say ALSO means everyone with exception ... I say everyone without distinction. It is not clear.

And universal salvation was not taught by John or any of the other writers
so that is out of the question.

Agreed ... my point is to show that the word WORLD is ambiguous. There are verses where, if the word WORLD would be interpreted as 'everyone without exception', that leads one to conclude universalism. Since we don't believe in universalism we can conclude the word WORLD can have multiple meanings which is the point I am making. Thus, anything you see the world WORLD you should not rush to a meaning that fits your theology.

Nice try at explaining away a verse that clearly states something that the writer does not believe to be true.
This is eisegesis. NOT exegesis.

This a statement for which you have supplied no foundation. It is a conclusion without proof.

I'd say the above is correct.
God loves everyone equally in regard to salvation.

This is empirically false statement. I offer as proof:

1. All babies go to heaven. Maybe 5% of adults go to heaven. Therefore, God loves the group identified as babies more than non-babies.
2. Those that have not heard the gospel go to hell. God loves those that hear the gospel more than those did not not. (I know you believe in two gospels IMO which Paul preaches against (Gal. 1:8) ... one to save those that have not heard the gospel and another gospel for those that heard the gospel. That is a minority opinion. (I apologize if I miss stated your position)
3. God treated the Jews must better than the Gentiles thus showing He does not love all people the same. Before His death almost all the Gentiles went to hell (Ephesians 2:12). Amos 3:2, Matt 10:5, "sent to the Jews only", compared the Gentile woman to a dog at the childrens (Jews) table, His disciple Peter ten years after His death in the story of Cornilius is surprised that salvation as come to the Gentiles (all that time with Christ and 10 or so years later He is told Gentiles included also, yahda, yahda, yahda ...

See, my understanding of God's love varies from yours. I believe that God loves me so much that He decided there is NOTHING that will stop him from saving me. Your understanding has God loving you less than my understanding. He gives you a 5% chance to be saved (I am assuming 5% of adults will be saved) and it's up to you to team up with him to save yourself. And even though you perform the righteous act of believing which contradicts scripture that says NO ONE SEEKS GOD, you don't believe a righteous act independent of God that only 1 in 20 people achieve is worth boasting about. I can't boast because I did nothing. You can't boast because scripture says you can, which as I just showed IMO you have reason to boast as you partnered up with God to save yourself.

Aside:
If I are wrong and I get to heaven God might say, "You didn't give yourself enough credit Fred. Without your self generated belief, you would not be here."
If you are wrong God might say, "So young lady, you think you are partly responsible for being here. Let's discuss that further."

I dare say, I doubt Arminiuns are dumb.

LOL ... yeah ... I am sure he was a lot smarter than I. I think at the Synod of Dort he was labeled a heretic ... but then the R.C.s said the reformers are going to hell.

My own opinion is that God does not love a person after he rejects God.

Oh, that is interesting. *ponders God's attributes* .... so (unless you are an open theist) you probably believe God looks into the future and knows everything that will occur. If that be the case, why would God ever love a person He knows will/has rejected him?
I believe in God's impassibility but I assume you believe we can change His mind. I could develop that further ... but won't.

Hey ... you are suppose to be taking the fight to Bright

Anyways, everything said in love .. I apologize for anything offensive ... not my intention. I know you also have no intention to offend me.

*Sigh* .. guess I better proof read now

 

[GodsGrace]

I like what you said about the word world and all and everyone etc.

But let me ask you about sinners Christ died for, the elect. Do you believe that Christ is their advocate , propitiation, even while they are in unbeiief,based upon the fact that He loves them and shed His Blood for them?

Ah,,,,,the silly questions that are created when one follows the ideas of a man, Calvin, instead of the teachings of the bible.

This question of yours does not even exist in the Christian faith.

Are you a Christian, or a Calvinist?

 

[GodsGrace]

You've used your view of God to exegete the verse. This is a hermeneutic NO-NO.
World can mean many things. Just because you state one meaning is invalid (which you have not proven or really defined), there are still many others.



Arminian - relating to the doctrines of Jacobus Arminius
Armenian - in the Middle East are mostly concentrated in Iran, Lebanon, Cyprus, Syria, Jordan and Jerusalem, etc.

I was talking of the group known as Arminian. You have the same beliefs as Arminians and Open Theists in regard to "God love everyone without exception" and "God dies for everyone". I think that is what we are discussing. Yes, I know all your beliefs don't coincide with any "ism". Yes, I am definitely SURE you are a Christian (though you may not be one tomorrow as your 'libertarian free will' may cause you to change your mind. (I took a liberty there, as I don't know for sure your view on perseverance of the saints. Aside: I know you will be a Christian to the day you die, but then that is my reform doctrine.

No one follows the Bible 100% of the time for no one knows it all or understands it all. I know you try.


I repeat, the word WORLD is ambiguous. Therefore, you cannot be certain. You make it fit your understanding.
2 Corinthians 5:19 “To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, “not imputing their trespasses unto them”. Unless you are a universalist the word WORLD cannot mean 'everyone with exception'. It means 'everyone without distinction' IMO in these cases.


"ALSO" simply means not only to the group Paul is addressing, but to every saint in the world. ALSO works for me. You say ALSO means everyone with exception ... I say everyone without distinction. It is not clear.



Agreed ... my point is to show that the word WORLD is ambiguous. There are verses where, if the word WORLD would be interpreted as 'everyone without exception', that leads one to conclude universalism. Since we don't believe in universalism we can conclude the word WORLD can have multiple meanings which is the point I am making. Thus, anything you see the world WORLD you should not rush to a meaning that fits your theology.



This a statement for which you have supplied no foundation. It is a conclusion without proof.



This is empirically false statement. I offer as proof:

1. All babies go to heaven. Maybe 5% of adults go to heaven. Therefore, God loves the group identified as babies more than non-babies.
2. Those that have not heard the gospel go to hell. God loves those that hear the gospel more than those did not not. (I know you believe in two gospels IMO which Paul preaches against (Gal. 1:8) ... one to save those that have not heard the gospel and another gospel for those that heard the gospel. That is a minority opinion. (I apologize if I miss stated your position)
3. God treated the Jews must better than the Gentiles thus showing He does not love all people the same. Before His death almost all the Gentiles went to hell (Ephesians 2:12). Amos 3:2, Matt 10:5, "sent to the Jews only", compared the Gentile woman to a dog at the childrens (Jews) table, His disciple Peter ten years after His death in the story of Cornilius is surprised that salvation as come to the Gentiles (all that time with Christ and 10 or so years later He is told Gentiles included also, yahda, yahda, yahda ...

See, my understanding of God's love varies from yours. I believe that God loves me so much that He decided there is NOTHING that will stop him from saving me. Your understanding has God loving you less than my understanding. He gives you a 5% chance to be saved (I am assuming 5% of adults will be saved) and it's up to you to team up with him to save yourself. And even though you perform the righteous act of believing which contradicts scripture that says NO ONE SEEKS GOD, you don't believe a righteous act independent of God that only 1 in 20 people achieve is worth boasting about. I can't boast because I did nothing. You can't boast because scripture says you can, which as I just showed IMO you have reason to boast as you partnered up with God to save yourself.

Aside:
If I are wrong and I get to heaven God might say, "You didn't give yourself enough credit Fred. Without your self generated belief, you would not be here."
If you are wrong God might say, "So young lady, you think you are partly responsible for being here. Let's discuss that further."



LOL ... yeah ... I am sure he was a lot smarter than I. I think at the Synod of Dort he was labeled a heretic ... but then the R.C.s said the reformers are going to hell.



Oh, that is interesting. *ponders God's attributes* .... so (unless you are an open theist) you probably believe God looks into the future and knows everything that will occur. If that be the case, why would God ever love a person He knows will/has rejected him?
I believe in God's impassibility but I assume you believe we can change His mind. I could develop that further ... but won't.

Hey ... you are suppose to be taking the fight to Bright

Anyways, everything said in love .. I apologize for anything offensive ... not my intention. I know you also have no intention to offend me.

*Sigh* .. guess I better proof read now

I don't fight.
And it's rather difficult to speak to brightfame52 .....

Guess what time it is?
Tune in tomorrow for the rest of the story.

 

[brightfame52]

i have no idea what you are implying Christ died for all but not all will be saved other than that your to far out in left field for me

Then you are not understanding this thread at all.

 

[jerry63935]

Then you are not understanding this thread at all.

i am NOT understanding you not sure how many do understand

 

[brightfame52]

why are you twisting the word around Christ did in fact die for the lost . while we were yet sinners --->

Romans 5:8​

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” it dont get any more planer than that . its beyond me where you get your theology . many doctrines i can understand but this bit much

The comments were not for you. I was asking another person something based upon what they posted.

 

[jerry63935]

The comments were not for you. I was asking another person something based upon what they posted.

then start you a private conversation

 

[brightfame52]

i am NOT understanding you not sure how many do understand

Well keep reading, maybe God will open your understanding.