The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[JLB]

He died for all men of His Sheep, Elect, and He effected their Salvation by His death. If you believe He died for all men without exception, then its impossible for you to believe that His death alone effects their Salvation, unless you believe in universalism which I consider to be a false teachig.

As everyone can plainly see by your lack of scripture, and logical fallacy, your perspective is not biblical.


Again, here is what the scriptures plainly states:


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.
1 Timothy 4:9-11



Now, if you believe that God sent His Son to die only for His sheep, then please present the scripture that states this.



If you don’t have a scripture that says Jesus Christ died for only His sheep, then please consider repenting of promoting false doctrine in this community.




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

If Jesus died for those who were already His own (sheep/elect) then why did He have to be sacrificed in the first place?

You failed to define what you mean by "already His own" ... but anyways ...

Isaiah 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, We have turned, each one, to his own way; But the Lord has caused the wickedness of us all [our sin, our injustice, our wrongdoing] To fall on Him [instead of us].

Christ had to die to redeem (purchase of salvation) the sheep, reconcile (2 Corinthians 5:19) the sheep to the Father and propitiate (secures on God’s part the freedom for Him to exercise His unchanging compassion apart from those restraints which penal judgments would otherwise impose) the Father due to the problem of sin and the due to the holiness of God (in which there is no darkness).

 

[jerry63935]

Yeah I believe He died for His Sheep, His Church.

to be in his Church we must be born again salvation is open t o any and all who call upon his name shall be saved . we become his ELECT the moment we get saved . your limited attornment dont float . as far as i am concerned even Judas who betrayed Christ had a chance to be saved... his mercy endureth

Psalm 136

King James Version

​

136 O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

 

[jerry63935]

He died for all men of His Sheep, Elect, and He effected their Salvation by His death. If you believe He died for all men without exception, then its impossible for you to believe that His death alone effects their Salvation, unless you believe in universalism which I consider to be a false teachig.

nobody is promoting universalism. that is a age OLD excuse that is older than mosses. i read the exact same material you post in carm years ago

 

[jerry63935]

Christ had to die to redeem (purchase of salvation) the sheep, reconcile (2 Corinthians 5:19) the sheep to the Father and propitiate (secures on God’s part the freedom for Him to exercise His unchanging compassion apart from those restraints which penal judgments would otherwise impose) the Father due to the problem of sin and the due to the holiness of God (in which there is no darkness).

WE dont become Sheep until we are born again the Bible says freely given

Matthew 10:8



​

8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons {. Freely you have received; freely give.} before salvation we was sick spiritually dead. when Christ breathes his Holy Spirit on us and in us. we become alive in Christ
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[for_his_glory]

You failed to define what you mean by "already His own" ... but anyways ...

It's you and brightfame52 that say Jesus only died for the elect being those who are already His own making it sound like His death was not for whosoever will believe. I have asked who these elect are, but have been refused an answer.

I will repeat this again, God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

 

[JLB]

we become his ELECT the moment we get saved

 

[Fastfredy0]

I have asked who these elect are, but have been refused an answer.

The elect are those individuals chosen before the foundation of the earth. Eph. 1:4 Since the elect did not exist before the foundation of the earth except in the mind of the eternal God, it is irrational to think they did the choosing. The only being at the time that could choose it God.

I will repeat this again, God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved)

I repeat that this contradicts scripture IMO.
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed,
No one seeks God
Faith comes from God (Eph. 2:8-9)
Repentance is granted by God (2 Timothy 2:25)
... I could list more ... wife is calling

Your past posts (at least some of them) indicate you don't answer questions and list verses that you won't exegete... so not much sense continuing the discussion.

I do recognize your love for God and that is the most important thing. So, we are agreed on the most important thing IMO.

 

[jerry63935]

The elect are those individuals chosen before the foundation of the earth. Eph. 1:4 Since the elect did not exist before the foundation of the earth except in the mind of the eternal God, it is irrational to think they did the choosing. The only being at the time that could choose it God.

left field theology your theology says we have to wait and see if God chooses us if we can be saved . my Bible reads that whosoever shall call upon his name shall be saved also all that All those the Father gives me come to me i will in no wise cast out

 

[for_his_glory]

The elect are those individuals chosen before the foundation of the earth. Eph. 1:4 Since the elect did not exist before the foundation of the earth except in the mind of the eternal God, it is irrational to think they did the choosing. The only being at the time that could choose it God.


I repeat that this contradicts scripture IMO.
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed,
No one seeks God
Faith comes from God (Eph. 2:8-9)
Repentance is granted by God (2 Timothy 2:25)
... I could list more ... wife is calling

Your past posts (at least some of them) indicate you don't answer questions and list verses that you won't exegete... so not much sense continuing the discussion.

I do recognize your love for God and that is the most important thing. So, we are agreed on the most important thing IMO.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

It was the adoption that was predestined as God has chosen us as in all in whom He created beginning with Adam that we should be holy and without blame walking in obedience to His commands. Adam blew that as sin entered into man through him falling to temptation. Having predestined the plan of adoption by His grace through faith in God and His Son Christ Jesus that all who will believe will have eternal life with the Father.

John 1:13 does not stand alone as read Vs. 11, 12 with that.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

From the time of Adam we have all fallen short of the glory of the Lord needing to repent of our sins and return back to Him. God is not going to force anyone to make that decision, but He does know from the beginning to the end who are His own. Limited atonement is not scriptural, but man will twist scripture to prove it is.

Yes, I agree as the most important thing we have in common is our love for God and His Son Christ Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

This a statement for which you have supplied no foundation. It is a conclusion without proof.

I could prove all my conclusions...
Please include in your replies what I've said.

I went back and looked.
You posted this statement from someone:

Now believers only may take comfort from this, for they alone have an “Advocate”, for them alone is Christ the propitiation, as is proven by linking the Propitiation (“and”) with “the Advocate”! Also the word “Comfort”, in such a case, belongs to none but believers; unto others in a state and condition of alienation, wrath is to be denounced, John 3:36. Thirdly, They are the "little children" to whom he writes, 1 John 2:1; whom he describes, verses 12, 13, to have "their sins forgiven them for his name's sake," and to "know the Father."

The above does not explain why Jesus did not die for everyone, as you are trying to show.
I have nothing to prove...it's sufficient to read the above.
Of course John is speaking to believers, the children of God..BUT
Who are ALL the others? If it meant only believers he would not have had to say
"AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THOSE OF THE WHOLE WORLD."

This is empirically false statement. I offer as proof:

1. All babies go to heaven. Maybe 5% of adults go to heaven. Therefore, God loves the group identified as babies more than non-babies.

FF, this is a subject you've hammered to death.
However, yes, all babies go to heaven because Jesus died for them.
They are included in the ALL that Jesus died for besides us.

1. Those that have not heard the gospel go to hell. God loves those that hear the gospel more than those did not not. (I know you believe in two gospels IMO which Paul preaches against (Gal. 1:8) ... one to save those that have not heard the gospel and another gospel for those that heard the gospel. That is a minority opinion. (I apologize if I miss stated your position)

There's only ONE gospel.
A person has heard it or not.
No one is in a position to know who is going to heaven that has not heard the gospel.
Paul said in Romans 1 that NO PERSON has an excuse because God has made Himself be known through His creation.

Now, Galatians 1:8, which you brought up:
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!


If anyone is preaching a different gospel, it would be Mr. Calvin and those that agreed with him, both before him and after him.
If you read Galatians 1:6 it will quickly kill Perseverance of the Saints and confirm free will. Here it is:
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Please note that the same Paul you are quoting for Galatians 1:8,
is the same Paul that is stating here (as in other verses) that some were deserting Him who called them by the Grace of Christ.
This destroys Perseverance of the Saints.
And confirms the free will of man to do as he will.

Unless, of course, God is just fooling with us.

1. God treated the Jews must better than the Gentiles thus showing He does not love all people the same. Before His death almost all the Gentiles went to hell (Ephesians 2:12). Amos 3:2, Matt 10:5, "sent to the Jews only", compared the Gentile woman to a dog at the childrens (Jews) table, His disciple Peter ten years after His death in the story of Cornilius is surprised that salvation as come to the Gentiles (all that time with Christ and 10 or so years later He is told Gentiles included also, yahda, yahda, yahda ...

Again you say almost all Gentiles went to hell.
How can you know that?
In Ephesians 2:12 Paul is speaking to persons that had been heathens (the uncircumcised).
The heathen did not know God and were lost without Him, as all who do not know God are.
However, we are told elsewhere that those that did not know the Law were a Law unto themselves.
Romans 2:6-11, 14
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.

14-15
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

See, my understanding of God's love varies from yours. I believe that God loves me so much that He decided there is NOTHING that will stop him from saving me. Your understanding has God loving you less than my understanding. He gives you a 5% chance to be saved (I am assuming 5% of adults will be saved) and it's up to you to team up with him to save yourself. And even though you perform the righteous act of believing which contradicts scripture that says NO ONE SEEKS GOD, you don't believe a righteous act independent of God that only 1 in 20 people achieve is worth boasting about. I can't boast because I did nothing. You can't boast because scripture says you can, which as I just showed IMO you have reason to boast as you partnered up with God to save yourself.

Scripture says no one seeks God?

Check out the following:

Hebrews 11:6 God rewards those who seek Him.
Proverbs 8:17 Those who seek me find me.
Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find me.
Deuteronomy 4:29 If you seek God you will find Him.
Psalm 9:10 God does not forsake those who seek Him.
Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found.
James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Confirms free will too.
Acts 17:27 They should seek God.

many more....

Aside:
If I are wrong and I get to heaven God might say, "You didn't give yourself enough credit Fred. Without your self generated belief, you would not be here."
If you are wrong God might say, "So young lady, you think you are partly responsible for being here. Let's discuss that further."

Why would a deterministic God that desires man to seek Him as per the many verses in the bible,
And as Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself (but not all will come)
allow one of us to be so wrong?
Is He just fooling with us?

Anyways, everything said in love .. I apologize for anything offensive ... not my intention. I know you also have no intention to offend me.

*Sigh* .. guess I better proof read now

You aren't offensive....(no need to proof read)
I also try not to make personal statements, so ditto on my side.

Interesting convo.
Thanks.

 

[brightfame52]

As everyone can plainly see by your lack of scripture, and logical fallacy, your perspective is not biblical.


Again, here is what the scriptures plainly states:


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.
1 Timothy 4:9-11



Now, if you believe that God sent His Son to die only for His sheep, then please present the scripture that states this.



If you don’t have a scripture that says Jesus Christ died for only His sheep, then please consider repenting of promoting false doctrine in this community.




JLB

When ever scripture states anything about Christ dying for any, He is the Good Shepherd that gives His life for the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 and He effected their Salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure, but the comments weren't for you.

 

[brightfame52]

to be in his Church we must be born again salvation is open t o any and all who call upon his name shall be saved . we become his ELECT the moment we get saved . your limited attornment dont float . as far as i am concerned even Judas who betrayed Christ had a chance to be saved... his mercy endureth

Psalm 136​

​

King James Version​

​

​

136 O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Christ died for His Church while they were yet ungodly sinners, not born again Rom 5:6-8

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Eph 5:25-26

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word

 

[GodsGrace]

When ever scripture states anything about Christ dying for any, He is the Good Shepherd that gives His life for the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 and He effected their Salvation.

What does John 12:32 mean to you?
Jesus said this.


John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

 

[JLB]

When ever scripture states anything about Christ dying for any, He is the Good Shepherd that gives His life for the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 and He effected their Salvation.

Jesus certainly gave His life for His sheep. He also gave His life for anyone else who wanted to become one of His sheep.

Anyone.


I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:9-11


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Jesus died for anyone in the world who desires to become one of His sheep.



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

left field theology your theology says we have to wait and see if God chooses us if we can be saved

No, the chosen know they are saved. All know they are saved once they are regenerated. It is not at doctrine that differs from Open Theists and Arminians.
For the unsaved and yet to be saved there is no waiting either, for NO ONE SEEKS GOD.
Aside: ... see assurance of salvation for confidence.

my Bible reads that whosoever shall call upon his name shall be saved also all that All those the Father gives me come to me i will in no wise cast out

Agreed. John 6:37 Jesus says, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." Note that this text specifically teaches that only some will come to Jesus, namely, those who have been given by the Father to the Son. In other words, the Father has not given all to the Son; he has selected only some, and it is they who will come to the Son and believe in him (cf. John 6:35). The teaching of John 6:37 is reaffirmed in 6:44. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him at the last day." The word draw which is used in John 12:32, is also used in John 6:37. The point of John 6:44 is that the Father does not draw all people, only some. Carson rightly remarks, "The combination of verse 37a and verse 44 prove that this 'drawing' activity of the Father cannot be reduced to what theologians sometimes call 'prevenient grace' dispensed to every individual, for this 'drawing' is selective, or else the negative note of verse 44 is meaningless." The drawing is not that it makes salvation possible, but that it makes salvation effectual. Those who are drawn will come to Jesus and believe in him.

Thanks for giving quotes from "your Bible" to support my contention.

 

[jerry63935]

chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

Christ died for His Church while they were yet ungodly sinners, not born again

he died so they could be forgiven/payment for sins .your excuses have not changed over the years . if your trying to convince me ----you failed. If you have convinced your self. looks like you done a good job. you been programmed well

 

[Fastfredy0]

It was the adoption that was predestined as God has chosen us as in all in whom

Agreed. Note the word "adoption". It is the parent (God) that determines if a child is adopted. That is the definition of ADOPTION. It was predestined as in predetermined; it is irrational to think that when we were NOTHING we determined our salvific destiny for NOTHING is NO THING and NO THING cannot do something.

Adam blew that as sin entered into man through him falling to temptation.

Agreed

Having predestined the plan of adoption by His grace through faith in God and His Son Christ Jesus that all who will believe will have eternal life with the Father.

Agreed. God predestines all things including His plan of adoption of the elect through faith, said faith given to the elect as the consequence of regeneration or being 'born again' which is yet another salvific analogy since it is the parent that determines if a child is born and not the other way around; further evidence the God chooses the elect.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Excellent verse that says we and not born because of our will, but God's will.

From the time of Adam we have all fallen short of the glory of the Lord needing to repent of our sins and return back to Him. God is not going to force anyone to make that decision, but He does know from the beginning to the end who are His own.

Agreed. God does not force anyone. The regeneration by the Spirit causes us to willing come to him which is the only solution to scripture assertion that NO ONE SEEKS GOD. This is in contrast to the semi-pelagian position of libertarian free will in which a person could decide to believe or not believe given the same circumstances ... this is the doctrine of indifference. I can turn left, or turn right, or doing nothing .... it's my choice and the next time, confronted with the save choice I may do something different. Reformed doctrine ensures that none that God loves with the love of complacency are lost whereas semi-pelagian position is God loves for everyone but for some reason this love (volition to favor) is of lesser importance than 'libertarian free will' (indifference).

Question: If God loves everyone, then why did He not bring the gospel to so many; the consequence of which is these ones the God suppositely loves (a volition to favor) end up in hell. (Faith cometh by hearing ... since they did not hear they do not have faith which is the instrument God decided to use for salvation).

Limited atonement is not scriptural, but man will twist scripture to prove it is.

The statement, true or false, lacks foundation.
If Christ died for everyone and is 'all knowing' then He knowing died in vain for those He knew would not believe. I could expound ... but that is a tangent. (Exception: Open theist's, a branch of Arminianism, has a rational explanation for this)

Yes, I agree as the most important thing we have in common is our love for God and His Son Christ Jesus.

Thank you brother. That was nice of you to say and is the most important thing.

 

[JLB]

Note the word "adoption". It is the parent (God) that determines if a child is adopted.

How about if the child is 18, or 28, or 48 and must choose whether to be adopted ?

Your theory is only relevant concerning natural little children.

Each person must choose to believe the Gospel or not.



JLB