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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

brightfame52 said:
But let me ask you about sinners Christ died for, the elect. Do you believe that Christ is their advocate , propitiation, even while they are in unbeiief,based upon the fact that He loves them and shed His Blood for them?
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Yes. Christ is the advocate/mediator/intercessor/priest for the elect ONLY.

Definition: An advocate is one who undertakes the cause of another.
Definition: A priest appointed to act for other men in things pertaining to God. The high priest offers a sacrifice. Christ offered himself for the elect only.

Proof:
Premise 1: The divine nature of the Son and the Father are but one as there is One God in three subsistences (persons).
Conclusion1: As the Son and Father are of one mind, whatever the Son asks of the Father must be granted as their desires are one and the same. (It is like asking yourself for something)

Christ, as High Priest, has two functions:
1) offer Himself as a sacrifice
2) be an advocate

The question is, for whom does the Son offer this sacrifice and advocacy ...
(a) everyone without exception or
(b) the elect

(a) everyone without exception
If Christ died for everyone without exception then He, as High Priest, also advocates for everyone with exception.
If Christ advocates for everyone without exception then everyone is saved for what the Son asks for of the Father
is always granted (Conclusion1). Since not everyone is saved, it is evident that Christ did not die for
everyone without exception.
(b) the elect
as there is no other possibility that I am aware of, Christ is both the sacrifice and advocate of the elect only.

Definition of elect: choose (someone) to hold public office or some other position by voting. It is not as if God elected each individual to elect him. That's why the word elect (chosen appoint, predestination) is used.
  • anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
  • , to you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
  • the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known.
  • For many are invited, but few are chosen.
  • but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose [for Himself], He shortened the days.
  • no one can come to me unless it is granted [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] him by the Father.”
  • yahda, yahda, yahda
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Yes. Christ is the advocate/mediator/intercessor/priest for the elect ONLY.

Definition: An advocate is one who undertakes the cause of another.
Definition: A priest appointed to act for other men in things pertaining to God. The high priest offers a sacrifice. Christ offered himself for the elect only.

Proof:
Premise 1: The divine nature of the Son and the Father are but one as there is One God in three subsistences (persons).
Conclusion1: As the Son and Father are of one mind, whatever the Son asks of the Father must be granted as their desires are one and the same. (It is like asking yourself for something)

Christ, as High Priest, has two functions:
1) offer Himself as a sacrifice
2) be an advocate

The question is, for whom does the Son offer this sacrifice and advocacy ...
(a) everyone without exception or
(b) the elect

(a) everyone without exception
If Christ died for everyone without exception then He, as High Priest, also advocates for everyone with exception.
If Christ advocates for everyone without exception then everyone is saved for what the Son asks for of the Father
is always granted (Conclusion1). Since not everyone is saved, it is evident that Christ did not die for
everyone without exception.
(b) the elect
as there is no other possibility that I am aware of, Christ is both the sacrifice and advocate of the elect only.

Definition of elect: choose (someone) to hold public office or some other position by voting. It is not as if God elected each individual to elect him. That's why the word elect (chosen appoint, predestination) is used.
  • anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
  • , to you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
  • the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known.
  • For many are invited, but few are chosen.
  • but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose [for Himself], He shortened the days.
  • no one can come to me unless it is granted [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] him by the Father.”
  • yahda, yahda, yahda
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Agreed
 
brightfame52 said:
He died for all of the Sheep. Are all Sheep? Nope afraid not.
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Sorry brother, but He died for the world; all men.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.
1 Timothy 4:9-11




JLB
 
brightfame52 said:
Those that He died for. That is who not only can be saved but will be saved, the saved.
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So, in your understanding, are you saying that Christ only died for a few that are already His own even before He died on the cross? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Here is my question,

If Jesus died for those who were already His own (sheep/elect) then why did He have to be sacrificed in the first place?
 
Fastfredy0 said:
You've used your view of God to exegete the verse. This is a hermeneutic NO-NO.
World can mean many things. Just because you state one meaning is invalid (which you have not proven or really defined), there are still many others.
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We all use our "view of God".
Of course you understand John 3:16 your own way due to indoctrination by the reformed.
Fortunately for me, I haven't been indoctrinated by anyone and read the bible on my own BEFORE being taught.

If one does this, it's plain to see that God is a loving and merciful God and that He wants us to repent of our sins
and become a child of His.

John 1:12
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,


As many as received Him ..... 1st step
He gave the right to be called children of God .... 2nd step

It's difficult to get away from the plain and simple truth of the N.T. good news.

I don't need hermeneutics to explain John 3:16....exegesis will suffice.
God so loved the world (NOT THE WORLD SYSTEM,,,, so certainly it means EVERYONE IN THE WORLD)
That He gave His only begotten Son (as God planned from the beginning of time, knowing Adam would fail)
That WHOSOEVER, whosoever, whoever wants to believe in Him will have everlasting life.
Fastfredy0 said:
Arminian - relating to the doctrines of Jacobus Arminius
Armenian - in the Middle East are mostly concentrated in Iran, Lebanon, Cyprus, Syria, Jordan and Jerusalem, etc.

I was talking of the group known as Arminian. You have the same beliefs as Arminians and Open Theists in regard to "God love everyone without exception" and "God dies for everyone".
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I don't believe in open theism. I've stated this before.
Please stick to what we're discussing and stop telling me what I believe.

Commonly, Arminiuns are the followers of Jacob Arminius
Armenians come from Armenia. (I'm not willing to bet on this and it makes no difference to me since I'm not either one)

As far as God dying for everyone,,,it is not MY idea.
1 John 2:2 states this plainly.

I'll try again:
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

It states that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (we Christians)
and NOT FOR OURS ONLY (not only for the present Christians)
BUT ALSO for those of the whole world.

Difficult to get around that.
Some reformed have tried and it shows how they distort plain language to arrive at an incorrect conclusion.

Fastfredy0 said:
I think that is what we are discussing. Yes, I know all your beliefs don't coincide with any "ism". Yes, I am definitely SURE you are a Christian (though you may not be one tomorrow as your 'libertarian free will' may cause you to change your mind. (I took a liberty there, as I don't know for sure your view on perseverance of the saints. Aside: I know you will be a Christian to the day you die, but then that is my reform doctrine.
Click to expand...

Perseverance of the Saints is a bit different from OSAS which is discussed at infinitum.
I know that the Early Church Fathers did NOT believe in eternal salvation OUTSIDE of the dwelling of the Holy Spirit.
I tend to believe that if I, of my own free will, decide to abandon Jesus, I will once again be lost.

I offer Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

However, I don't wish to change the subject at hand...
Who did Christ die for....?
Fastfredy0 said:
I repeat, the word WORLD is ambiguous. Therefore, you cannot be certain. You make it fit your understanding.
2 Corinthians 5:19 “To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, “not imputing their trespasses unto them”. Unless you are a universalist the word WORLD cannot mean 'everyone with exception'. It means 'everyone without distinction' IMO in these cases.
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I don't make anything fit my understanding.
2 Corinthians 5:19 just reinforces the belief that Christ died for everyone....His sacrifice was sufficient for everyone who will take advantage of it.
The world, in this case, does mean everyone in t he world.

I'd like to discuss the above more, but I don't have the time right now.
Above is the key to what it means that Christ died for everyone.
(Please remind me?) --- after -Christmas.
Fastfredy0 said:
"ALSO" simply means not only to the group Paul is addressing, but to every saint in the world. ALSO works for me. You say ALSO means everyone with exception ... I say everyone without distinction. It is not clear.
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Could you point out where in the N.T. WORLD means "EVERY OTHER CHRISTIAN", as you've stated?
I can't think of any - this does not mean it doesn't exist.
Fastfredy0 said:
Agreed ... my point is to show that the word WORLD is ambiguous. There are verses where, if the word WORLD would be interpreted as 'everyone without exception', that leads one to conclude universalism. Since we don't believe in universalism we can conclude the word WORLD can have multiple meanings which is the point I am making. Thus, anything you see the world WORLD you should not rush to a meaning that fits your theology.
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We know this FF.
Please do not repeat.
We're discussing SPECIFIC verses ....
Fastfredy0 said:
This a statement for which you have supplied no foundation. It is a conclusion without proof.
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No more time.
After dinner for the below.
Fastfredy0 said:
This is empirically false statement. I offer as proof:
  1. All babies go to heaven. Maybe 5% of adults go to heaven. Therefore, God loves the group identified as babies more than non-babies.
  2. Those that have not heard the gospel go to hell. God loves those that hear the gospel more than those did not not. (I know you believe in two gospels IMO which Paul preaches against (Gal. 1:8) ... one to save those that have not heard the gospel and another gospel for those that heard the gospel. That is a minority opinion. (I apologize if I miss stated your position)
  3. God treated the Jews must better than the Gentiles thus showing He does not love all people the same. Before His death almost all the Gentiles went to hell (Ephesians 2:12). Amos 3:2, Matt 10:5, "sent to the Jews only", compared the Gentile woman to a dog at the childrens (Jews) table, His disciple Peter ten years after His death in the story of Cornilius is surprised that salvation as come to the Gentiles (all that time with Christ and 10 or so years later He is told Gentiles included also, yahda, yahda, yahda ...
See, my understanding of God's love varies from yours. I believe that God loves me so much that He decided there is NOTHING that will stop him from saving me. Your understanding has God loving you less than my understanding. He gives you a 5% chance to be saved (I am assuming 5% of adults will be saved) and it's up to you to team up with him to save yourself. And even though you perform the righteous act of believing which contradicts scripture that says NO ONE SEEKS GOD, you don't believe a righteous act independent of God that only 1 in 20 people achieve is worth boasting about. I can't boast because I did nothing. You can't boast because scripture says you can, which as I just showed IMO you have reason to boast as you partnered up with God to save yourself.

Aside:
If I are wrong and I get to heaven God might say, "You didn't give yourself enough credit Fred. Without your self generated belief, you would not be here."
If you are wrong God might say, "So young lady, you think you are partly responsible for being here. Let's discuss that further."



LOL ... yeah ... I am sure he was a lot smarter than I. I think at the Synod of Dort he was labeled a heretic ... but then the R.C.s said the reformers are going to hell.



Oh, that is interesting. *ponders God's attributes* .... so (unless you are an open theist) you probably believe God looks into the future and knows everything that will occur. If that be the case, why would God ever love a person He knows will/has rejected him?
I believe in God's impassibility but I assume you believe we can change His mind. I could develop that further ... but won't.

Hey ... you are suppose to be taking the fight to Bright

Anyways, everything said in love .. I apologize for anything offensive ... not my intention. I know you also have no intention to offend me.

*Sigh* .. guess I better proof read now
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carm.org/Did Jesus die for everyone? My Calvinist friends say no.
by Matt Slick

This is a common question regarding Reformed Theology and is known as limited atonement. Reformed theology, also known as Calvinism, teaches that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect and that He did not die for the sins of everyone who ever lived. This teaching is held by the Reformed and Presbyterian Churches as well as some Baptist ones. It is controversial in that there is debate regarding its validity from scripture. Nevertheless, we must understand that believing or not believing in limited atonement has no bearing on whether or not someone is a Christian or not. The issue is denominational; that is, it is a perspective held by some Christian churches but not others.

Nevertheless, is limited atonement biblical? The reader will have to decide. To help in making that decision, the following arguments for and against it are offered.

For Limited Atonement
If Jesus actually died for the sins of everyone who ever lived, then why does anyone go to hell? This argument holds that if Jesus actually did pay for everyone's sins, including unbelief, then no one should go to hell. The counter argument is that people must believe to be saved. The answer to this is that even disbelief is a sin that has been paid for; therefore, no one should go to hell. But, since people do go to hell, it is logical to believe that Jesus only bore the sins of the Christians. The Reformed theologians would say that though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not intended for all.

Scriptures used to support limited atonement are as follows:

Jesus died for 'many.'
Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33);
John 10:11,15 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
Matt. 25:32-33, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."
Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world;
John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"
The Church was purchased by Christ, not all people.
Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
Eph. 5:25-27, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless."
Prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Isaiah 53:12, "Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors."

Against Limited Atonement
The Bible says that Jesus died for all; therefore, Jesus died for all. God so loved the world, not just the Christian, that He died for everyone and it is up to the person to accept or reject Jesus. If he rejects Jesus, then the atonement is not applied to the person and he will go to hell. But, Jesus' sacrifice was not only sufficient for all, but intended for all.

Scriptures used to support an unlimited atonement are as follows:

Jesus died for everyone
John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"
1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."
Conclusion
There are points and counter-points related to this topic. Brilliant theologians reside on both sides of the issue. But, whether or not you believe in limited atonement, you must understand that those who do and those who don't are still Christians (provided they acknowledge and trust in the true God and Christ). We need to be tolerant of those with whom we disagree on doctrines that do not affect our salvation. So, whichever side you fall on as a Christian, be gracious to those who don't believe as you do. Remember, we have far more in common in Christ, than we have differences.
 
Another passage of scripture that Illustrates and proves that Christs death effects saving/converting results is 1 Pet 1:18-21

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.35
 
JLB said:
Sorry brother, but He died for the world; all men.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.
1 Timothy 4:9-11




JLB
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He died for all men of His Sheep, Elect, and He effected their Salvation by His death. If you believe He died for all men without exception, then its impossible for you to believe that His death alone effects their Salvation, unless you believe in universalism which I consider to be a false teachig.
 
for_his_glory said:
So, in your understanding, are you saying that Christ only died for a few that are already His own even before He died on the cross? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Yeah I believe He died for His Sheep, His Church. Now did you read post 76 ? I would like to discuss the point made there
 
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