The 'spirit' in the Bible

[Drew]

I find the scriptural "case" put forward by guibox and CP_Mike to be both well-presented and strong. I want to suggest that while guibox and CP_Mike make strong biblical cases, it might be helpful to try to put some "meat" on the arguably vague notion that the spirit is "life spark" or "vital energy". Remember the following from the OP?:

Lightbulb (body)+electric spark (spirit) = light (soul)

To be fair, even if people accept the force of the scriptural arguments presented by guibox and CP_Mike, they might be scratching their heads, wondering how they can take terms like "electric spark" and map them to a model of the real world in a sensible and workable way.

To begin with, I think we need to be avoid falling into the trap of thinking that the spirit must be a "thing", a kind of immaterial object. It is very easy to take a statement like "He gave up his spirit" and assume that some kind of ghostlike entity was released from the body.

Real life shows us that not all aspects of being can or should be modeled as "things". Consider joy, pain, emotions, etc. Are these "things" or "objects"? I think that the answer is clearly "no". As I have argued elswhere, I think we need to understand some Biblical text may be speaking with the intent to describe phenomenology (a fancy word to describe the content of 1st persion experience - sensation, emotion, etc.). In the same line of thinking, a word might be used as a pointer to an ensemble of functional and phenomenlogical features of personhood.

Consider the following from CP_Mike:

There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God

It is tempting to think that CP_Mike is referring to a non-physical, highly mysterious glowing ball of energy that is independent of the body - in short, a thing. I do not want to speak for CP_Mike, but my reading is that he is saying that the word "spirit" is being used to refer to a specific aspect or "dimension" of personhood - that aspect which is "open to the influence of God". It does not have to be a "thing".

Here is the important part for my immediate purposes. I do not think he is making any kind of attempt to describe a human person in terms of "parts" or "components", be they physical or immaterial. Instead, he is claiming that human persons can be described in terms of their "interacting with God" attributes - and this is what the term spirit refers to.

CP_Mike, if I have misrepresented you, please advise. In the interests of keeping this reasonably brief, I have intentionally sacrifificed rigour and precision to a certain degree.

 

[guibox]

.

guibox,
So for right now, I have one verse for you to think about... in terms of whether ALL men's spirits return to God once the body/flesh is in the grave.
Because I beg to differ on your opinion and tend toward agreeing with the comment made by 2Pillars....The burden of proof is in the following scripture which most definitely says different than what guibox claims.

In the Word of our Savior Jesus Christ.
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


So then, John 5:28-29 Shows clearly that not ALL men will be going back to God. It is very clear, some go to damnation.

Somehow I feel that Relic and 2Pillars are speaking Chinese and the rest of us are speaking English with no translator because neither of you are seeing our points and are going off on tangents (as SputnikBoy pointed out) that miss the original intent of this post.

Nowhere did I say that the wicked go to heaven and your text speaks about the resurrection of the righteous at the end of time, not our 'spirit going to heaven at death'.

You are arguing apples. I am talking about oranges

it is clearly indicative that those who "hear" the voice from out of their graves, (Notice they "hear" the voice) and that in itself, meaning that those who are asleep in their graves, are indeed conscious. The meaning of the word sleep, does not indicate a terminated spirit.
Example; Not much different than when I go to sleep at night, I am conscious, but yet, I am sleeping aware of my existence.

Based on your own logic, you will have a hard time trying to prove that the 'spirit's of the righteous, that conscious, thinking part of man, is in heaven when they 'hear the voice of Christ' in their graves.

The 'voice of the archangel' has the power to raise the dead. Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep but "we will go so that I may awake him out of his sleep". When the voice speaks, that 'spirit' that gave us life at creation goes back into us.

.Dear Readers,
It is shame that others will go out of their way to pervert the Scripture in vain attempt to support their distorted view. I guess, if they stop blaspheming the Word of God, he will let them understand a little bit of it.

Look and read what the Scripture says - contrary to guidbox and co. distorted belief


Matthew 11
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, AND FINDETH NONE.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

I hope the above will help to put an end to some of their doctrinal errors

Okay, 2Pillars. First of all, the fact that you can't even get my name right when it is staring you in the face tells me that you are barely reading my posts. :roll:

Second, I have no clue what your above verse has to do with our topic at hand. You are talking about demonic beings. These 'spirits' is not the same thing as the 'ruach', 'nephesh' 'pneuma' that makes man a conscious, living soul.

You are on a completely different wavelength than CP_Mike, Drew and I.

As Sputnik said, you really need to get on the same topic as us.

It is you and Relic who are promoting doctrinal error, confusion and out of context statements.

Again, why don't the both of you actually go back and read my original post again without your blinders and really see what I am saying, and how I am using the Bible alone for my proof, before you accuse me of 'blaspheming the Word'.

 

[Drew]

In the Word of our Savior Jesus Christ.
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


So then, John 5:28-29 Shows clearly that not ALL men will be going back to God. It is very clear, some go to damnation.

And so.... God does not allow the wicked to be in His Heavenly place,
but they are
away from, outside of the heavenly presence of God.
If I am not mistaken, I think this is relative to what 2Pillars stated above.

Also, once we have settled this matter I have to point out to you that the scripture above also covers, in part, the bit you believe about the consciousness of spirit once it has left the body/flesh. You may ask...How so? Well, not only does the above scripture show a separation from God to those who are wicked as to where they go after death of the body, but also, it is clearly indicative that those who "hear" the voice from out of their graves, (Notice they "hear" the voice) and that in itself, meaning that those who are asleep in their graves, are indeed conscious. The meaning of the word sleep, does not indicate a terminated spirit.
Example; Not much different than when I go to sleep at night, I am conscious, but yet, I am sleeping aware of my existence. .

I have added bolding to the particular portion of this text that I wish to comment on.

I think that the reasoning that I suspect underlies the material in bold is at the heart of the problem with much Christian thinking, particularly in N. American fundamentalist circles. The main problem is a fierce commitment to a totally and purely literalistic, "technical" reading of any scriptural text. The argument is that one must have conscious awareness after physical death in order to "hear" the call to resurrection. This is frankly, literalism on steroids. This position presumes that the Biblical author was writing from the perspective of a "scientist" who is not permitted to use any turn of phrase except in a precise scientifically and technically accurate sense. This way of thinking is responsible for young earth creationism (but that is another tale).

This kind of reasoning would remove the sense of the following expressions, all of which do have real meaning and content, even if they are not precisely correct from a technical point of view:

1. I hear the voice of the dead of the Holocaust, crying for justice (how can the dead speak?)

2. I left my heart in San Fransisco (need I state the obvious?)

3. I feel the January cold in my bones (I do not really experience chilled bones).

etc. etc.

To argue that the fact that physical sleep inolves limted consciousness implies that the dead in their graves are conscious is another example of this literalistic way of thinking. I assert that it is obvious that the scriptures were not penned with such an intent.

 

[Relic]

.

guibox,
So for right now, I have one verse for you to think about... in terms of whether ALL men's spirits return to God once the body/flesh is in the grave.
Because I beg to differ on your opinion and tend toward agreeing with the comment made by 2Pillars....The burden of proof is in the following scripture which most definitely says different than what guibox claims.

In the Word of our Savior Jesus Christ.
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


So then, John 5:28-29 Shows clearly that not ALL men will be going back to God. It is very clear, some go to damnation.

Somehow I feel that Relic and 2Pillars are speaking Chinese and the rest of us are speaking English with no translator because neither of you are seeing our points and are going off on tangents (as SputnikBoy pointed out) that miss the original intent of this post.

Nowhere did I say that the wicked go to heaven and your text speaks about the resurrection of the righteous at the end of time, not our 'spirit going to heaven at death'.

You are arguing apples. I am talking about oranges

it is clearly indicative that those who "hear" the voice from out of their graves, (Notice they "hear" the voice) and that in itself, meaning that those who are asleep in their graves, are indeed conscious. The meaning of the word sleep, does not indicate a terminated spirit.
Example; Not much different than when I go to sleep at night, I am conscious, but yet, I am sleeping aware of my existence.

Based on your own logic, you will have a hard time trying to prove that the 'spirit's of the righteous, that conscious, thinking part of man, is in heaven when they 'hear the voice of Christ' in their graves.

The 'voice of the archangel' has the power to raise the dead. Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep but "we will go so that I may awake him out of his sleep". When the voice speaks, that 'spirit' that gave us life at creation goes back into us.

.Dear Readers,
It is shame that others will go out of their way to pervert the Scripture in vain attempt to support their distorted view. I guess, if they stop blaspheming the Word of God, he will let them understand a little bit of it.

Look and read what the Scripture says - contrary to guidbox and co. distorted belief


Matthew 11
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, AND FINDETH NONE.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

I hope the above will help to put an end to some of their doctrinal errors

Okay, 2Pillars. First of all, the fact that you can't even get my name right when it is staring you in the face tells me that you are barely reading my posts. :roll:

Second, I have no clue what your above verse has to do with our topic at hand. You are talking about demonic beings. These 'spirits' is not the same thing as the 'ruach', 'nephesh' 'pneuma' that makes man a conscious, living soul.

You are on a completely different wavelength than CP_Mike, Drew and I.

As Sputnik said, you really need to get on the same topic as us.

It is you and Relic who are promoting doctrinal error, confusion and out of context statements.

Again, why don't the both of you actually go back and read my original post again without your blinders and really see what I am saying, and how I am using the Bible alone for my proof, before you accuse me of 'blaspheming the Word'.

Based on your own logic, you will have a hard time trying to prove that the 'spirit's of the righteous, that conscious, thinking part of man, is in heaven when they 'hear the voice of Christ' in their graves.

The 'voice of the archangel' has the power to raise the dead. Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep but "we will go so that I may awake him out of his sleep". When the voice speaks, that 'spirit' that gave us life at creation goes back into us.

:o You didn't pay attention to my previous post did you? :-?

Who do you think you are kidding? :-?

You know what guibox? You are the biggest manipulator of words I have ever encountered.
Anyone who reads how you reply to us could see this.

I've had it with you. You can't hold a discussion without twisting everything people reply back to you. You even manipulate the fact that we only took quotes of yours and responded to them. :-?

your UR propaganda just doesn't cut it. You ignore the truth and divert the attention elsewhere, and then you even have the nerve to twist the words that have been written in replies to you.

I should have know better than to even take things one issue at a time with you. That's too confrontational for you. isn't it? You have no other recourse but to divert the attention away from the truth.

Tell me guibox. and the righteous you speak of in the above text of yours.... What exactly are those righteous that are resurrected? jello?

Lord have mercy. You even deny the fact that it is the "spirit" that is the being. Go ahead, now are you going to try and toss in your flesh card by saying something totally out of wack about the soul?

You are clearly from the UR school. and they are the foreign minded from what the bible truly teaches.

No promoting of UR propaganda guibox. You are trying to hide it but you can't. It shows it's distorted face each and every time you try to present it and it won't pass the test here. UR is nothing but distorted propaganda that is out of line and out of context to the full gospel of Jesus Christ. It contradicts the words of Jesus and you won't admit it.

And yes, I do have proof that the spirit is conscious after it leaves the flesh. But of course you would just trample on the truth as a swine tramples over pearls.

I've had it with your twisting and diverting away from the issue at hand.

Trying to have an organized discussion with you is absurd. You divert from what we presented to you and claimed oh no, that's not the spirit I was talking about. When all we did was take quotes from you and remark on them. sheesh! You are something else guibox way out in left field with the rest of the UR propagandists who back you up on this thread. :-? Yep, I'm getting to know who the UR people are on this board. That's for sure. :roll: :-?



.

 

[Drew]

Perhaps I am risking being seen as too cozy with my fellow Canadian guibox, but I must take serious exception to the post by Relic. I have found guibox's arguments to be penetrating and convincing. The scriptures are there, the logic is there and the posts are refreshingly clear and well-articulated. I do not think that he believes in UR but rather adopts an annihilationist stance.

This kind of post gives the readers the impression that Relic has been bested in debate and can only resort to character assassination. We should be able to do better.

 

[guibox]

Relic, I have no clue what you are talking about.

I am not a UR, nor have ever given that impression in any of my posts. The fact that you have railed against my reasoning and posts the way you have and accuse of me of being a UR tells me without a doubt that you barely, if at all, read what I DO post.

You're making a fool of yourself with your nonsense rhetoric and personal attacks on me for no good reason or proof whatsoever, Relic. I truly believe that you are speaking a completely different language then the rest of us on this topic and you are blowing things way out of proportion.

You're entitled to your opinion, but for Pete's sake, make sure it is based on sound reasoning and logical perception would you? :roll:

 

[Relic]

I think that the reasoning that I suspect underlies the material in bold is at the heart of the problem with much Christian thinking, particularly in N. American fundamentalist circles. The main problem is a fierce commitment to a totally and purely literalistic, "technical" reading of any scriptural text. The argument is that one must have conscious awareness after physical death in order to "hear" the call to resurrection. This is frankly, literalism on steroids. This position presumes that the Biblical author was writing from the perspective of a "scientist" who is not permitted to use any turn of phrase except in a precise scientifically and technically accurate sense. This way of thinking is responsible for young earth creationism (but that is another tale).

Drew, Those kind of statements from you just prove my case in point when I said I am dealing with a bunch of people who are of the UR school. and I must add, those who believe in the annihilation theory. :roll:

And no Drew you have it all wrong about the fundamentalist beliefs.
But then it doesn't surprise me that UR people and those who believe in annihilation would understand. They, most likely, have not been given the privilege of supernatural experiences while in the body/flesh, yet, and can only speculate what the meaning of spirit is and it's function outside of the human body. 8-)

And no Drew, guibox is not a test to me, he is ignorant and inexperienced in such matters, that's all. I am not saying he is wrong in all that he writes. only in error in this regard and his views are to me indicitive of the UR and annhilation school of thought. of which I do not agree with.

You know. God isn't beyond giving people experiences outside of having to rely on scripture to prove everything. God is not dead in showing things to people through experience. Do you know that much? :roll:

Have any of you ever experienced miracles in your life or something ever happen that was of the supernatural in your life?

God is that awesome he hasn't stopped manifesting the supernatural you know. He's done it in so many lives of people these days, don't you know? His miracles and marvelous wonders have not stopped to this day. People do have what some people call "paranormall" experiences in this day and age. Many people have been gifted with things you wouldn't even dream of.

It is so obvious not any of you who are of the UR school of thought and those who believe in annihilation have had experiences with the supernatural spirit. Nor have any of you ever had an experience in which your were aware of "roaming" spirits, especially those that have died within a few minutes or a few days. Those spirits that have not lost consciousness and have visited people, and yes, they think they are still alive, but they are not aware they are out of the body/flesh. Yes, you'd probably laugh and shrug such a thing off and say, what an imagination, and mock someone who says they've experienced such things happen in front of them. It is obvious none of you have had any experience in hospice situations or in Intensive care units in the hospitals. Let alone oustside of those environments. I have witnesses (Yes, plural) to prove the spirit lives outside of the body once the flesh has been dead. Twice in my life has that happened to me. Once back in 1996 and another time back in 1998. Only two times in my life and not ever since. Go ahead say I am crazy if you want, your opinion means little. Proof is more than your opinion, any day. I have witnesses that can validate what happened to me is truth. And no, I am not the only person on earth that has such sensitivity to the spirits. There are a whole lot of people in this world that can literally prove you guys to be full of hog wash. It wouldn't surprise me if there were more people who visit this web forum who have had experiences also. But you guys just don't see it. You think Scripture that you pick and choos and ignore the others is all you need to prove you are correct and the rest of the world has got it all wrong. aye? 8-)

I have had experiences the would curl your skin. But you guys are so blind to the things supernatural and spiritual, you can only think the person whose body is in the grave as being an entity that is unconscious and lifeless as if it were some run down battery or lightbulb that went out and has no function or awareness of anything until that voice of judgement calls it forth. Well, I have news for you, you are wrong. And too bad many of you reject even he scripture which shows your in error.
Such a shame. the blind eyes in the minds of man.

Maybe someday, while you are still on this earth, the Good Lord will open your eyes and give you ears to hear, so as to know what the supernatural things are of the Lord and what are not, and how they function as being immortal (outside of the flesh) .

I've had it trying to reason with you guys. It is obvious you are dead in knowing the things supernatural. Your eyes and ears have not been opened to such things. Maybe if you ask God to show you the proof He will someday, maybe.


I suppose this scripture only works for you on "certain" terms. aye?
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Why should I bother with people who are so closed minded that they put God in a box of their own making as if he creates toys that run out of juice and are put on a shelf until the day of judgment.How absurd is that?
You just don't get it do you?


.

 

[Relic]

Relic, I have no clue what you are talking about.

I am not a UR, nor have ever given that impression in any of my posts. The fact that you have railed against my reasoning and posts the way you have and accuse of me of being a UR tells me without a doubt that you barely, if at all, read what I DO post.

You're making a fool of yourself with your nonsense rhetoric and personal attacks on me for no good reason or proof whatsoever, Relic. I truly believe that you are speaking a completely different language then the rest of us on this topic and you are blowing things way out of proportion.

You're entitled to your opinion, but for Pete's sake, make sure it is based on sound reasoning and logical perception would you? :roll:

My, aren't you clever. :

Is that reverse psychology or something? :


.

 

[Drew]

Relic, you are embarassing yourself. Please debate the topic and do not make statements that you will almost certainly regret later.

There is some substance in your post about "roaming spirits". You are right, I have no experience of roaming spirits. And frankly, I will make a statement that I know you will not like. My anecdotal, personal experience has been such as to suggest that those who do have these experience may have other issues about "seeing the world the way it truly is". This is not to say this is true of you- I do not know you.

I do take exception to your claim:

It is obvious none of you have had any experience in hospice situations or in Intensive care units in the hospitals. Let alone oustside of those environments

This presumption of yours is incorrect. I have spent weeks at the bedside of 2 dying relatives. When they died, they simply stopped breathing, the colour drained slowly and they just lay there, peacefully. I experienced nothing supernatural.

 

[Relic]

Look and read what the Scripture says - contrary to guidbox and co. distorted belief

Matthew 11
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, AND FINDETH NONE.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Lightbulb. :


.

 

[Drew]

Look and read what the Scripture says - contrary to guidbox and co. distorted belief

Matthew 11
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, AND FINDETH NONE.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Lightbulb. :


.

The Matthew 11 text speaks rather forcefully to the existence of these spirits, and to the fact that they can indeed "inhabit" a man. I would be willing to bet a flagon of fine October ale that the greek word used to describe these spirits is not the same as the greek words used to describe the "spirit" inside of man. If I am proven wrong on this, then you will have landed a punch ( :D ). On the other hand, if the words are different, your lightbulb may need to flicker - there is nothing inconsistent with the view that such demonic beings exist and that there is no immortal spirit inhabiting the human body.

Any Greek scholars out there?

 

[Solo]

Look and read what the Scripture says - contrary to guidbox and co. distorted belief

Matthew 11
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, AND FINDETH NONE.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Lightbulb. :


.

The Matthew 11 text speaks rather forcefully to the existence of these spirits, and to the fact that they can indeed "inhabit" a man. I would be willing to bet a flagon of fine October ale that the greek word used to describe these spirits is not the same as the greek words used to describe the "spirit" inside of man. If I am proven wrong on this, then you will have landed a punch ( :D ). On the other hand, if the words are different, your lightbulb may need to flicker - there is nothing inconsistent with the view that such demonic beings exist and that there is no immortal spirit inhabiting the human body.

Any Greek scholars out there?

Same word tranliterated Pneuma used in unclean spirit, man's spirit, holy spirit, etc.

This word is used 350 times in the KJV New Testament.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matthew 3:16

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Romans 1:9

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Matthew 12:43

 

[2Pillars]

.Dear Readers,
It is shame that others will go out of their way to pervert the Scripture in vain attempt to support their distorted view. I guess, if they stop blaspheming the Word of God, he will let them understand a little bit of it.

Okay, 2Pillars. First of all, the fact that you can't even get my name right when it is staring you in the face tells me that you are barely reading my posts. :roll:

Second, I have no clue what your above verse has to do with our topic at hand. You are talking about demonic beings. These 'spirits' is not the same thing as the 'ruach', 'nephesh' 'pneuma' that makes man a conscious, living soul.

Dear guidbox

Scripture says that those who have not been born again have eyes which CANNOT see, and ears which CANNOT hear. Tell us your inadequacy in understanding the Scripture. Perhaps, we could pray for you.

The context of the text does not talk about "demonic beings" but those of the wicked ones who did not listen to the Lord.

Read again and let somebody explain to you this parable.

Matthew12
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother


God Bless

 

[Relic]

Relic, you are embarassing yourself. Please debate the topic and do not make statements that you will almost certainly regret later.

There is some substance in your post about "roaming spirits". You are right, I have no experience of roaming spirits. And frankly, I will make a statement that I know you will not like. My anecdotal, personal experience has been such as to suggest that those who do have these experience may have other issues about "seeing the world the way it truly is". This is not to say this is true of you- I do not know you.

I do take exception to your claim:

It is obvious none of you have had any experience in hospice situations or in Intensive care units in the hospitals. Let alone oustside of those environments

This presumption of yours is incorrect. I have spent weeks at the bedside of 2 dying relatives. When they died, they simply stopped breathing, the colour drained slowly and they just lay there, peacefully. I experienced nothing supernatural.

Drew, I'm sorry I didn't say have experience of the supernatural type in hospice situations or in Intensive care units in the hospitals..

The one experience I had in the Intensive care unit, I too had to witness my fiance' have his last breath. And I didn't then have a supernatural experience with him at that time. It happened a few days later. This was the 'second" experience I had which occurred in 1998. The first one I had was in 1996 which was with someone I didn't even know, it was in the house of a close friend of mine and it happened to be his childhood friend that appeared to me the very night he died. We didn't realize what had actually happened until a week later when we found out he had passed away. Being this was the first supernatural experience of this type that I had, it freaked me out. I didn't even know this person and he appeared to me at approximately the same time the coroner said he passed away. Mind you. He lived in Youngstown and we were in Cleveland some 50 miles away from him when he died.
So yes, I have had supernatural experiences, and if God wants to manifest that to me while I am alive, then what of it? If God gives the gift of healing to someone would you say they have issues in seeing things for what they really are?

Well anyway, I happen to know from personal experience that the spirit in man is still very conscious after it leaves the body. God does give people experiences that are in line with scripture. And that example has been provided by myself and 2Pillars. These were in reference to statements we quoted which were made guibox. And it all got distorted. because he didn't reply directly but diverted attention away from the original quotes of his and only focused on diverting attention away from it by creating something else out of it. We were not distorting anything. It was him who threw the attention away from his own words.


Oh, btw, Your anecdote is presumption. :P


.

 

[guibox]

'pmeuma' has many different usages and meanings. From demonic influence, to feeling and emotion to life giving qualities.

However, when compared to the OT words 'ruach' and 'nephesh' we see that the instances of both Christ and Stephen 'giving up their spirit' is not the same as the spirits of demons. The meaning of 'giving up the ghost' as in Christ on the cross means 'to breath his last'. This is the 'ruach' that goes to God. Compare this with Job and the clear meaning of the 'spirit' of man is crystal clear. It is the life giving force that animates man and then goes back to God at death. This includes all man.

You have no scriptural support to refute it.

Again, there is no scriptural evidence that the 'pneuma' (which can be translated as a function and not a thing') that 'goes back to God who gave it' is the traditional view of the 'soul'. Sorry Relic, it is not in the scriptures. It is an assumption based on preconceived views of Greek dualism.

As for 'apparitions', when one understands the truth, one is not deceived by spiritism and the occult which is what 'ghosts' are exactly a part of.

They are demons in disguise. This erroneous belief of 'immortality of the soul' will work hugely to Satan's advantage in deceiving God's people. If he can deliver 'messages from God' through our dearly departed grandmother who visits us at night, he can truly deceive whomever he wants who believes that some part of man survives death.

Grand deception.

 

[Drew]

Look and read what the Scripture says - contrary to guidbox and co. distorted belief

Matthew 11
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, AND FINDETH NONE.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Lightbulb. :


.

The Matthew 11 text speaks rather forcefully to the existence of these spirits, and to the fact that they can indeed "inhabit" a man. I would be willing to bet a flagon of fine October ale that the greek word used to describe these spirits is not the same as the greek words used to describe the "spirit" inside of man. If I am proven wrong on this, then you will have landed a punch ( :D ). On the other hand, if the words are different, your lightbulb may need to flicker - there is nothing inconsistent with the view that such demonic beings exist and that there is no immortal spirit inhabiting the human body.

Any Greek scholars out there?

Same word tranliterated Pneuma used in unclean spirit, man's spirit, holy spirit, etc.

This word is used 350 times in the KJV New Testament.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matthew 3:16

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Romans 1:9

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Matthew 12:43

It looks like I owe Relic a flagon of ale.....

Nevertheless, I have been a little sloppy in my argumentation and created a situation where it might appear that the annihilation position is damaged by a determination that the word for spirit in Matt 12:43 is the same as the word used for other references to a spirit, specifically to the spirit of a man. This is not really a big problem for the annihilationist, however.

According an Internet source that I have not verified, the Greek word commonly rendered "spirit" in the New Testament is "Pneuma" (word# 4151). With two exceptions (Matthew 14:26, Mark 6:49), the word "spirit" in the New Testament is always translated from "Pneuma". So we have as follows:

There's an an unclean spirit (Matthew 12:43), a dumb spirit (Mark 9:17), a foul spirit (Mark 9:25), a spirit of infirmity (Luke 13:11), a spirit of divination (Acts 16:16), a spirit of bondage (Romans 8:15), the spirit of the world (1 Corinthians 2:12), seducing spirits (1 Timothy 4:1), the spirit of fear (2 Timothy 1:7), a foul spirit (Revelation 18:2), a spirit of error (1 John 4:13), the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2), the Spirit of God (Romans 15:19), and the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13).

The point I am about to make should perhaps be obvious. Unless one is willing to argue that a "spirit of error" or "a spirit of infirmity" are descriptions of actual "beings", there is every reason to believe that the word "spirit" has different meanings (just like in English where the word "spirit" can refer to a supernatural entity, or to simply an attifude (a defiant spirit).

So it would seem that although I lost my bet, I believe I am on defensible ground when I claim that the use of the word pneuma in Matt 12:43 does not imply that all (or even most) uses of the word "spirit" are intended to denote an immaterial, immortal being of some kind.

To argue that the Matthew 12 material damages the annihilationist position would be like arguing that since the word "mug" can be used to describe a person's face, that we must interpret all uses of the word "mug" that way, thereby disallowing its use to refer to a vessel for storing coffee. Such an argument does not work.

 

[Drew]

Dear guidbox

Scripture says that those who have not been born again have eyes which CANNOT see, and ears which CANNOT hear. Tell us your inadequacy in understanding the Scripture. Perhaps, we could pray for you.

The context of the text does not talk about "demonic beings" but those of the wicked ones who did not listen to the Lord.

Read again and let somebody explain to you this parable.

How does the use of dismissive condescending rhetoric contribute to this debate? I have no idea what point you are trying to establish. Can you please elaborate?

 

[SputnikBoy]

.Dear Readers,
It is shame that others will go out of their way to pervert the Scripture in vain attempt to support their distorted view. I guess, if they stop blaspheming the Word of God, he will let them understand a little bit of it.

Sputnik: I would guess that NO ONE - with the possible exception of Relic - has the foggiest idea what you're talking about, pillars.

Okay, 2Pillars. First of all, the fact that you can't even get my name right when it is staring you in the face tells me that you are barely reading my posts. :roll:

Second, I have no clue what your above verse has to do with our topic at hand. You are talking about demonic beings. These 'spirits' is not the same thing as the 'ruach', 'nephesh' 'pneuma' that makes man a conscious, living soul.

Dear guidbox

Scripture says that those who have not been born again have eyes which CANNOT see, and ears which CANNOT hear. Tell us your inadequacy in understanding the Scripture. Perhaps, we could pray for you.

Guibox can speak for himself - and he does so very well - but I see your posts as being unnecessarily sarcastic, pillars. Additionally, you've taken this entire topic out of context and put a totally different slant on it. As far as the OP and your responses to it thus far, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. True! You've lost the plot and set up a strawman. I'm not sure why any of us are even giving you the time of day on this issue that you've twisted so, pillars. I guess we must be gluttons for punishment.

And, the implication to your 'being born again' (above) while people such as guibox are evidently NOT 'born again' could be taken as being offensive if anyone were to take you seriously, pillars. The thing that amuses me about some of the claimed 'born again Christians' is their apparent lack of 'savvy' on many major scriptural issues. One might naturally assume that the Holy Spirit would help the recipient to get it right. Then, to add insult to injury, those who so freely boast about their 'holiness' often do so to the detriment of others. The word 'mockery' springs to my mind. Not sure if this applies to you, pillars.

Anyway, back to the REAL topic. I asked this question of you previously and now I ask it again, pillars. What did God do to make Adam into a 'living, breathing human being'? You ignored the question before ...is there a chance that you can answer it now? A simple, coherent answer will suffice.

 

[stovebolts]

Body (dust [earth]) + Spirit (breath [God’s]) = Soul (combination of body and spirit)

Hello Guibox, long time no see ehh. Not to worry as this is just a quick hit and run for old times sake :-D

As we know, the OT is a shadow of things to come and as such, we are spirits for God is a spirit and we were made in his image (gen 1:26), which is a mere shadow (tselem). Shadows are cast by a light and God as you well know is omnipresent.

That being said, our bodies are a temple (tabernacle, or place to dwell) and our spirit, is the inner court of the tabernacle and our souls, reside in the most inner part of the tent (dwelling place) and is considered the holy of holies. But you see, narrow is the gate, and the gate, is the entrance to the tabernacle. Now, because somebody doesn’t make it through the gate, does that negate the existence of the courtyard and the existence of the holy of holies? No, it doesn’t negate the existence, it just denies the access, but for those who accept Christ, he will tabernacle with them (john 1:14, dwell is skenoo)

Lets have some light fun with strongs can we?
Skenoo is strongs 4637
from 4636; to tent or encamp, i.e. (figuratively) to occupy (as a mansion) or (specially), to reside (as God did in the Tabernacle of old, a symbol of protection and communion):-- dwell.
See Greek 4636 <

4636. skenos
from 4633; a hut or temporary residence, i.e. (figuratively) the human body (as the abode of the spirit):--tabernacle.
See Greek 4633 <
4633. skene
apparently akin to 4632 and 4639; a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively):--habitation, tabernacle.
See Greek 4639
See Greek 4632 <

4632. skeuos
of uncertain affinity; a vessel, implement, equipment or apparatus (literally or figuratively (specially, a wife as contributing to the usefulness of the husband)):--goods, sail, stuff, vessel. <

4639. skia
apparently a primary word; "shade" or a shadow (literally or figuratively (darkness of error or an adumbration)):-- shadow. <


But, lets just go back to this statement  Spirit (breath [God’s]) = Soul

I think we’ve been down this road before…
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD <Y@hovah> God <'elohiym> formed <yatsar> man <'adam> of the dust <`aphar> of <min> the ground <'adamah>, and breathed <naphach> into his nostrils <'aph> the breath <n@shamah> of life <chay>; and man <'adam> became a living <chay> soul <nephesh>.

And breathed <naphach>
5301. naphach
a primitive root; to puff, in various applications (literally, to inflate, blow hard, scatter, kindle, expire; figuratively, to disesteem):--blow, breath, give up, cause to lose (life), seething, snuff.

and again, we could focus on chay... and nephesh


So you see, without a long drawn out debate, the body is perishable, but God will reign forever and as long as He reigns, His light will always shine, and His shadow (tselem) cast. To destroy the shadow, is to destroy God himself.

 

[2Pillars]

Anyway, back to the REAL topic. I asked this question of you previously and now I ask it again, pillars. What did God do to make Adam into a 'living, breathing human being'? You ignored the question before ...is there a chance that you can answer it now? A simple, coherent answer will suffice.[/color]

Dear SputnikBoy,

You must be playing dumb not to see where I stand on this subject. As I have posted many times before, the breath of life given to Adam in Genesis 2:7 was not a “breath of spirit†as you and your friend continue to assume. That’s just based on your flawed religious view which is NOT supported by the Scripture.

Had it been the case, the Scripture would have documented it so - the same similar way John 20:22 documented it specifically to avoid your confussion.

And in order to get a Breath of Spirit, common sense dictates that you must be ALIVE (living soul) to receive it - just as it happened at the Pentacost.

John 20:22 “And when he had said this, HE BREATH ON THEM, and saith unto them, "RECEIVED YE THE HOLY GHOST:â€Â

The Scripture is very clear…..

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Again, the first Adam was just an innocent NATURAL MAN in the beginning before he acquired the spirit of consciousness of good and evil when ate the fruit of tree of knowledge. However, the Last Adam was FORGIVEN of his sin and was given a quickening spirit – a life giving spirit, which you only get from God.

Now, here are some of the previous issues I raised before on this thread. The fact is I have never gotten a direct rebuttal from anyone of you who hold the same distorted assumption. Here’s your chance to stand up and defend your doctrinal teachings. I will be waiting for a DIRECT REBUTTAL .

Dear Mike,

The bone of contention here, just to give you an idea … guidbox ASSUMED that the “breath of life†given to Adam in the beginning Genesis 2:7 was actually his spirit or consciousness which equates to the knowledge of good and evil.

IF so, based on his/her assumption, then, all creatures and animals that was given the same breath of life - formed with nostrils Gen. 7:22 – also have spirit - the knowledge of good and evil. Absurd, isn’t it?

The actual usage of the definite article “THE†to describe THE BREATH OF LIFE (not neshama) should have served as a hint that his/her theory is flawed.. Had it been the case, the Scripture would have specifically described it so, as it is clearly documented on this cited text below..

look and read….

John 20:22 “And when he had said this, HE BREATH ON THEM, and saith unto them, "RECEIVED YE THE HOLY GHOST:â€Â

As everybody could see, the text is very specific describing what kind of breath that was given - to avoid this kind of guidbox’ confusion.

Now, to answer your question specifically -

Adam and Eve were innocent of the knowledge of the spirit (consciousness) good and evil until they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knoweldge. It was only then, they learned about shame and guilt of what they have done.

Our INHERITED natural spirit of consciousness of good and evil only came about after Adam’s had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Therefore, your question of the hardening of the heart of Sihon king of Heshbon became possible because of the reason stated above.

God knows that natural man’s consciousness to good is willing, but, the flesh is weak, therefore, will necessitate his spiritual help. That’s why we are called upon, to be born again, spiritually.

Scripture also clearly documents us that unless you are born again in the Spirit of God, you CANNOT enter the kingdom of God.

Based on the above, how can someone like guidbox take a position that uncleaned spirits will return to God - who gave it ??? - is beyond my imagination.

Read my lips guidbox, God, who is Holy, do not pour uncleaned spirits to us, therefore, the same will not return to his Kingdom.

While you’re at it, please tell our readers whether you also believe, just like guibox, that the context of cited passages below talk about “demonic beings (literal) Mat. 12:41-45. YES or NO?

Also, please explain this parable, the MAN who DENIED his own family - brother, sister and his mother - from without desiring to speak to him in verese 46-50.

Read again and let somebody explain to you this parable.

Matthew12
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother

God Bless