The 'spirit' in the Bible

[Drew]

Hello Mutzrein:

Thanks for your question.

Here are my opinions about what happens to a person at death and beyond:

1. For "philosophical", scientific, and most recently Biblical and historical reasons, I have come to reject the dualist picture that we are a "soul living in a body". While I cannot make any pronouncements on the "true" nature" of the human person (who can?), I do believe that a person cannot be decomposed into "components" - a human person is a monistic, unified entity.

2. When someone dies, they cease to be subjects of experience of any kind - they "go to sleep".

3. At an event in the future (the "resurrection") all human beings are "re-constituted", again in an unified, non-divisible form. My opinion is that this new form could be best described as a "body".

4. Those who are redeemed by Christ live forever in a "surprisingly physical" sense in these new bodies.

5. Those whose sins have not been redeemed are annihilated (after they have been "resurrected"). They cease to exist.

 

[CP_Mike]

All souls, go to God, judgement (waiting for), or Paradise. I don't prefer Heaven (since satans still up there). (Satan's already been condemned to die a soul's death, in the great and final judgement). Your Spirit, is the thing that makes you - you, Its your intelligence, your experiences. Souls don't burn in hell forever, they are eventually blotted out in judgement. Your soul is the thing that allows you to be in Communion with God. That sets you apart from sin or death. That gives you the chance to make your own decisions for yourself, like unction, sort of. The part God formed outta choas. Its eternal, but on that Great Day, some will put on incorruption (not decaying) spiritual bodies (like Christ's after his resurrection), while others will put on corruption (decaying spiritual bodies) (like Satan before he's consumed from the inside outwards by God's consuming fire). I hope that helps! mutzrein

Hi,
Just to chip in; the soul is not an immaterial essence that survives physical death, rather the spirit returns to God at death. The Hebrews believed in a twilight existence in 'Sheol' wherein death was the weakest of life. The dead were called 'Rephaim'.
The soul does not allow you to be in communion with God, rather the human Ruah was the part that could be influenced by God. The whole idea was that the entire person could be in communion with God, not just a part.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:o

 

[Hawkins]

Man does not have an immortal soul, he IS a soul (a living being). An immortal soul is a Greek concept, not a Hebrew/Christian one. When we all die, we do not go straight to heaven or 'hell', but await resurrection (either 1st or 2nd - see Revelation 20).

You mean this,

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Literally, those being slain do have an immortal soul here. At least, it doesn't seem to be non-Hebrew/Christian concept. :o


Luke 12:4
"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

 

[guibox]

You mean this,

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Literally, those being slain do have an immortal soul here. At least, it doesn't seem to be non-Hebrew/Christian concept. :o."

I have addressed this passage numerous times but I will do so again for you Hawkins. 8-)

Obviously we must take into account the heavy symbolism in Revelation.
Do you really think there are millions of disembodied souls crammed under an altar in heaven?

What is the greater meaning here, and the broader use of the word 'soul'?

Notice that it says 'how long until You avenge our blood'? This is quite significant.

Remember Abel's blood crying out to God? Was his blood really crying out? The symbolism here is that the blood in the scriptures represents the 'life' of an individual. Abel was sacrificed and his 'life' was spilled out on the ground 'crying out' for revenge.

When the Hebrews sacrificed at the altar, blood was poured under the altar. What does this represent? A sacrifice. In the case of the 'soul' or 'lives' of those under the altar it represents martyrdom at the greater altar of God.

So the parallel with Revelation is just like Abel and the sacrifices, the blood symbolically cries out for revenge on the lives taken away.

This is not support for 'souls going to heaven at death' but merely symbolic representation of the martyrs who have died and will die for God.

Luke 12:4
"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Parallel this with the verse that says 'Fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell'. Whatever the 'soul' is, it obviously can't be some disembodied substance because it can be destroyed. Something the traditionalist can not feasibly and reasonably answer is this

How can some consciousness ethereal part of man apart from the body be tormented by fire or even destroyed? For traditional thought puts wicked man in 'hell' right at death with no body. And yet we are told in Matthew 'As the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of the world'. So is it at death or at the end of time? You cannot mix the two and yet that is what the traditionalist has done. This is Catholic Midieval theology, not sola scriptura exegetical study.

The traditionalist cannot get their facts straight because they build theological assumption on more assumptions and become confused.

Anyway, back to the passage at hand...

However, when we see that the term soul merely means 'life', we see that the 'body' is merely the shell, but our 'conscious life' or eternal life, can be taken away from us by God, not man who can only destroy the body.

God could allow us to rot in the grave and never be resurrected. In that sense, our lives would be eternally lost and our 'soul' destroyed.

 

[Hawkins]

I have addressed this passage numerous times but I will do so again for you Hawkins. 8-)

Obviously we must take into account the heavy symbolism in Revelation.
Do you really think there are millions of disembodied souls crammed under an altar in heaven?

What is the greater meaning here, and the broader use of the word 'soul'?

Notice that it says 'how long until You avenge our blood'? This is quite significant.

Remember Abel's blood crying out to God? Was his blood really crying out? The symbolism here is that the blood in the scriptures represents the 'life' of an individual. Abel was sacrificed and his 'life' was spilled out on the ground 'crying out' for revenge.

When the Hebrews sacrificed at the altar, blood was poured under the altar. What does this represent? A sacrifice. In the case of the 'soul' or 'lives' of those under the altar it represents martyrdom at the greater altar of God.

So the parallel with Revelation is just like Abel and the sacrifices, the blood symbolically cries out for revenge on the lives taken away.

This is not support for 'souls going to heaven at death' but merely symbolic representation of the martyrs who have died and will die for God.

Your version of interpretation is well appreciated. Still it wont justify your saying that it's not a Hebrew/Christian concept. you may rate it as a wrong Christian concept thou, with your own copy of explanation. 8-)

Parallel this with the verse that says 'Fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell'. Whatever the 'soul' is, it obviously can't be some disembodied substance because it can be destroyed. Something the traditionalist can not feasibly and reasonably answer is this

How can some consciousness ethereal part of man apart from the body be tormented by fire or even destroyed? For traditional thought puts wicked man in 'hell' right at death with no body. And yet we are told in Matthew 'As the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of the world'. So is it at death or at the end of time? You cannot mix the two and yet that is what the traditionalist has done. This is Catholic Midieval theology, not sola scriptura exegetical study.

The traditionalist cannot get their facts straight because they build theological assumption on more assumptions and become confused.

Anyway, back to the passage at hand...

However, when we see that the term soul merely means 'life', we see that the 'body' is merely the shell, but our 'conscious life' or eternal life, can be taken away from us by God, not man who can only destroy the body.

God could allow us to rot in the grave and never be resurrected. In that sense, our lives would be eternally lost and our 'soul' destroyed.

You assume the automation here, the same automation as "sleeping = dieing". Now "burying = destroying".

I must say, your theory is not that convincing, especially in matching my death experience. :wink:

 

[Hawkins]

Parallel this with the verse that says 'Fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell'. Whatever the 'soul' is, it obviously can't be some disembodied substance because it can be destroyed. Something the traditionalist can not feasibly and reasonably answer is this

I found no logic in your statement, something capable of walking off your body must be undestroyable?

"Your spirit can walk off your body even when it's destroyable. Similarly, a soul can have experience, while it's destroyable by His divine power."

I dont see a problem with the above statement.

How can some consciousness ethereal part of man apart from the body be tormented by fire or even destroyed? For traditional thought puts wicked man in 'hell' right at death with no body. And yet we are told in Matthew 'As the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of the world'. So is it at death or at the end of time? You cannot mix the two and yet that is what the traditionalist has done. This is Catholic Midieval theology, not sola scriptura exegetical study.

How about it's put to the Hell first and later burnt with Fire. And how about some are put into Hell and burnt with fire, some others are put to the Hell waiting for a final judgement to come before being burnt. How about they choose to live in Hell by following the devils and later (end of world) being burnt by God.

I simply list some posibilities here for you to refute before your "You cannot mix the two" conclusion.

The traditionalist cannot get their facts straight because they build theological assumption on more assumptions and become confused.

Rather, the new theories confuse me more than the classic ones. :wink:

Anyway, back to the passage at hand...

However, when we see that the term soul merely means 'life', we see that the 'body' is merely the shell, but our 'conscious life' or eternal life, can be taken away from us by God, not man who can only destroy the body.

This is even more confusing. You mean we die because God is taking away our eternal lives continuously?

 

[guibox]

How about it's put to the Hell first and later burnt with Fire. And how about some are put into Hell and burnt with fire, some others are put to the Hell waiting for a final judgement to come before being burnt. How about they choose to live in Hell by following the devils and later (end of world) being burnt by God.

Yours, and traditional interpretation's, problem is the tendency to lump all the uses of 'hell' in the bible into one hell. The 'hell' you go to when you die is not the same as the 'hell' at the end of time, which is not the same as the 'hell' where the demons are.

Traditional thought has a wicked person dying and going to hell where they are tormented with fire for eternity by the devil and his angels.

Can you say midieval clap-trap, children?

Sheol/Hades is a place where there is no consciousness and where ALL await resurrection. Gehenna are the fires at the end of time that will ultimately annihilate. Tartaros is the realm of the demons that we are not part of.

They are not the same place and the English 'hell' is a gross translation of these places.

Anyway, back to the passage at hand...

However, when we see that the term soul merely means 'life', we see that the 'body' is merely the shell, but our 'conscious life' or eternal life, can be taken away from us by God, not man who can only destroy the body.

This is even more confusing. You mean we die because God is taking away our eternal lives continuously?

Our immortality is only a given because of God's saving grace and power to resurrect. 1 Corinthians 15 brings this out clearly. If Christ had not died and been raised by God, then 'ye are yet in your sins and all those who are asleep in Christ have perished'.

Without the resurrection power, we would not rise.

The wicked will be raised by God to be judged where the fire comes down out of heaven and they are annihilated forever. They will remain dead for they suffer the wages of sin which is death, and they are not resurrected ever again.

 

[mutzrein]

Traditional thought has a wicked person dying and going to hell where they are tormented with fire for eternity by the devil and his angels.

Can you say midieval clap-trap, children?

Hey Guibox

What did you mean by this?

Regards

 

[guibox]

Traditional thought has a wicked person dying and going to hell where they are tormented with fire for eternity by the devil and his angels.

Can you say midieval clap-trap, children?

Hey Guibox

What did you mean by this?

Regards

The view that all the uses of the English 'hell' being the same place has created the belief that I mentioned above: that when we die, our 'souls' go to a place of fire and torment by the devil.

This view was most prominent in the dark ages in the superstition of the people. All you have to do is look at the art of the times to see the promotion of this belief. Pictures of ugly, slobbering, pug nosed demons with torches and racks dipping naked sinners into vats of fire and eating them. Beliefs that when an unbaptized baby dies, they go to the fires of hell or some sort of limbo also came from this belief as well as purgatory.

Can you imagine an unlearned, ignorant peasant woman's guilt that she'd carry when and her child dies unbaptized and is in hell, because she couldn't pay the taxes clergy were imposing on the people for sacraments ?

The Catholic Church had a stranglehold on the people feeding and nurturing the nonsense doctrines that held them in darkness for so long (Hence the term Dark Ages). The money-hungry popes and clergy will have much to answer for on judgement day for defacing the word and character of God with their 'hellfire' doctrine that has probably spawned more atheists than anything else in Christendom.

 

[Hawkins]

How about it's put to the Hell first and later burnt with Fire. And how about some are put into Hell and burnt with fire, some others are put to the Hell waiting for a final judgement to come before being burnt. How about they choose to live in Hell by following the devils and later (end of world) being burnt by God.

Yours, and traditional interpretation's, problem is the tendency to lump all the uses of 'hell' in the bible into one hell. The 'hell' you go to when you die is not the same as the 'hell' at the end of time, which is not the same as the 'hell' where the demons are.

Traditional thought has a wicked person dying and going to hell where they are tormented with fire for eternity by the devil and his angels.

Can you say midieval clap-trap, children?

Sheol/Hades is a place where there is no consciousness and where ALL await resurrection. Gehenna are the fires at the end of time that will ultimately annihilate. Tartaros is the realm of the demons that we are not part of.

They are not the same place and the English 'hell' is a gross translation of these places.

Anyway, back to the passage at hand...

However, when we see that the term soul merely means 'life', we see that the 'body' is merely the shell, but our 'conscious life' or eternal life, can be taken away from us by God, not man who can only destroy the body.

This is even more confusing. You mean we die because God is taking away our eternal lives continuously?

Our immortality is only a given because of God's saving grace and power to resurrect. 1 Corinthians 15 brings this out clearly. If Christ had not died and been raised by God, then 'ye are yet in your sins and all those who are asleep in Christ have perished'.

Without the resurrection power, we would not rise.

The wicked will be raised by God to be judged where the fire comes down out of heaven and they are annihilated forever. They will remain dead for they suffer the wages of sin which is death, and they are not resurrected ever again.

It seems that your explanation of "Hell", whatever it is, doesnt give any clues about your theory that a soul, which can walk off once body, does not exist. In contrary, the many "Hells" may support the opposite, which is, the immortal souls exist. :roll:

 

[guibox]

It seems that your explanation of "Hell", whatever it is, doesnt give any clues about your theory that a soul, which can walk off once body, does not exist. In contrary, the many "Hells" may support the opposite, which is, the immortal souls exist. :roll:

My 'theory' is from the linguistic nature of the word.

The onus is on you to define the nature of the 'soul' and how it is immortal.

You may commence...

 

[mutzrein]

The Catholic Church had a stranglehold on the people feeding and nurturing the nonsense doctrines that held them in darkness for so long (Hence the term Dark Ages). The money-hungry popes and clergy will have much to answer for on judgement day for defacing the word and character of God with their 'hellfire' doctrine that has probably spawned more atheists than anything else in Christendom.

Yes and I guess there are many doctrines adopted by the protestant church that one could say, have their roots in a Catholic creed.
And one such premise is . . . if you don’t go to heaven, you go to hell.
But because we just can’t concieve that a righteous God would condemn ‘innocent’ people to eternal punishement in hell, it seems to me that we looked at ways to try and redefine hell.

Good grief – could it be that the premise is wrong?

Regards

 

[mutzrein]

BUMP! . . . another topical resurrection perhaps :-?

Hi Vic :P

 

[Vic C.]

BUMP! . . . another topical resurrection perhaps :-?

Hi Vic :P

Be aware that Revelation 22:22 says you will go to hell for this BUMP! :onfire:

:-D

 

[mutzrein]

BUMP! . . . another topical resurrection perhaps :-?

Hi Vic :P

Be aware that Revelation 22:22 says you will go to hell for this BUMP! :onfire:

:-D

LOL - yes that certainly will be a revelation - the day that all the 'bumps' are smoothed out . . .

 

[MarkT]

Many try to interpret the spirit as the soul and that it survives death. However, the two words ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ cannot be used interchangeably, nor does either refer to something that is immortal. This “spirit†is not conscious or immortal, but the life spark that keeps us alive. It is the Hebrew, “ruach†, which is translated into English as ‘breath’, ‘life force’ and ‘wind’.

I like to think of the soul as being the naked man - who you really are. The spirit is the lamp by which God looks into the soul and sees all your hidden thoughts and desires. The spirit is the breath of the Almighty. You can imagine the spirit is travelling over the waters of your soul. Call it a wind. The spirit in a man causes him to understand. Everything that has the breath of life has a spirit; a lamp. Call it an intelligence, an ability. Animals have intelligence and ability; each according to their kind. Certainly living things have a spirit. Upon death, the lamp returns to God. There are different kinds of spirit; 'the lamp of the wicked will be put put' Pr. 24:20. There's a cool spirit, a haughty spirit. A spirit can be downcast, or broken, like a lamp is broken. A man can also rule his spirit. 'He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.' Pr. 16:32

The Bible says that all creatures have the breath of life. The essence of life that God gave at creation is in us. Look at what happens when man dies.

[quote:83bf4]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it – Ecclesiastes 12:7

But man dieth, and wasteth away. Yea, man giveth up the ghost (spirit) and where is he? – Job 14:10

[/quote:83bf4]

My Bible says, 'But man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?' Job is asking a question; Where is man after he dies? - In Sheol.

** Notice something VERY important here...The 'spirit going back to God' is not just for righteous but for EVERY man. Hence, even the wicked man's 'spirit' goes back to God. The Bible doesn't limit it or single out righteous people. Therefore, this spirit cannot be some 'immortal conscious soul of the righteous' that goes to heaven at death

His spirit goes back to God, that is, his ability to see and hear and experience the world of the living. But his soul is put in prison, that is, the pit. The souls that are in Christ are rescued from death, that is, the first death. The ones that are sent to prison are kept there until the day of judgment. Certainly the rich man was in the pit when he asked Abraham for water. Lazarus was asleep - not conscious and not in torment. The rich man was in torment.

The problem with the traditional Christian view of man’s nature is that the words ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ are used interchangeably to talk about the same thing: that man has an essence that survives death. However, the ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ are not the same thing, neither is either immortal. Rather, the Bible teaches that both are an essential component of man. When one ceases to exist, so does the rest. Think of it as a light bulb.

Lightbulb (body)+electric spark (spirit) = light (soul)

When I shut off the light, that spark is gone, the light dies and an empty bulb-shell remains. The spark is not existing somewhere else. At the resurrection, this breath of life is breathed in to man again but man is raised immortal (1 Corinthians 15:51-56)

No. Jesus didn't tell us to fear the one who could destroy both body and soul in vain. In fact he said, 'what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul.' It is possible to kill the body. But Jesus said, 'And do not fear those who kill the body but can not kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.' Matthew 10:28

Don't fear the one who can kill the body but can not kill the soul. Implied is the soul is eternal and therefore more important than the body.

 

[Vic C.]

Don't fear the one who can kill the body but can not kill the soul. Implied is the soul is eternal and therefore more important than the body.

In reading this verse, I see this as implying there is at least someone who is capable of destroying a soul in hell. So, there is strong implication here that this soul is neither eternal nor immortal.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We should assume the first part of the verse is mortal death and it's true, a mortal person can only kill the body. But what of the second part of the verse? Who is the "him" that Jesus tells us to fear?

I'm just trying to understand the verse from both angles.

 

[MarkT]

In reading this verse, I see this as implying there is at least someone who is capable of destroying a soul in hell. So, there is strong implication here that this soul is neither eternal nor immortal.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We should assume the first part of the verse is mortal death and it's true, a mortal person can only kill the body. But what of the second part of the verse? Who is the "him" that Jesus tells us to fear?

I'm just trying to understand the verse from both angles.

Yes. He's saying the soul can only be destroyed by the one who will cast both body and soul into the hell of fire. But remember, it is an everlasting fire, everlasting for one reason. Because their worm doesn't die. So their destruction is everlasting; without an end. So the soul is immortal in a negative sense. That means they will wish it was mortal. 'They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.' Rev. 20:10

The 'him' who we have to fear is God. God is able, by his Word; the one who is called Faithful and True. 'He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is the Word of God. He will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords.' Rev. 19:11-16 Knowing the fear of God is knowing what God's Word will accomplish. When Christ returns he will judge the living and the dead.

Jesus said, 'The Son of man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire.' Matthew 13:41

 

[Vic C.]

Well somehow we shifted from spirit to soul. LOL, this seems to happen a lot. OK, since we are now there, you said:

So their destruction is everlasting; without an end. So the soul is immortal in a negative sense.

But this is for anyone to answer. I'm trying to fill some apparent gaps in both beliefs and don't want to look like it's just Mark and myself. How can we reconcile that statement with these verses:

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Remember, 1 Cor 15 is dealing only with the resurrection of righteous individuals. No mention here of the unrighteous achieving immortality. To achieve immortality, there must have been a time of mortality. This passage suggests we don't inherit immortality at death, but at the resurrection/translation/"rapture".

Next:

1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1 Tim 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is the only one "Who hath immortality". Paul says it, not me.

Finally:

2 Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

If HE brought immortality, then it must be that before He brought it, all we had was... mortality.

Mark... negative immortality? Never heard of such a thing. I think you made it up. ;-)