the Spirit, the Water, the Blood

[JLB]

[My comments in brackets are my way of slightly modifying your point to describe a reasonable test for other options that have been presented as follows:]

blood = Mary's hymen blood???
Is Mary's hymen blood a witness which can be a testimony either accepted or denied? For a Christian it is accepted, for a non-Christian it is denied. pass/fail? Pass. Fair enough. However, John did NOT witness it, yet his Epistle says he is writing about things he's touched and heard and has seen (1 John 1:1-4). So Biblically speaking it's a fail if one accepts what John is writing about in this Epistle.

water = Is Mary's birth water sack a witness which can be a testimony either accepted or denied? For a Christian it is accepted, for a non-Christian it is ACCEPTED. Pass/Fail? Fail. How is natural child birth a "witness" that Jesus is the Messiah to a non-Christian? It's not.
It also fails the tests since John didn't see or touch Mary's water sack.

...
one could consider each of the various options in this way and come to their own conclusions.

This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

Water and Blood is the testimony, not just water but water and blood.

When her water broke, so did her hymen.

Both water and blood ran out of her, not just water, but water and blood.


Natural child birth with the water from her water sack AND the blood from her hymen.

That's the witness.


JLB

 

[chessman]

When her water broke, so did her hymen.

Both water and blood ran out of her, not just water, but water and blood.


Natural child birth with the water from her water sack AND the blood from her hymen.

That's the witness.


JLB

Did John see or touch that?

1 John 1:1-4 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched, concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was revealed to us— what we have seen and heard, we announce to you also, in order that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write, in order that our joy may be complete. ​

 

[JLB]

Did John see or touch that?

1 John 1:1-4 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched, concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was revealed to us— what we have seen and heard, we announce to you also, in order that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write, in order that our joy may be complete. ​

That's why the scripture says - the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

If the scripture said - because John is the witness, then you may have a point.

And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
1 John 5:8

JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

The one who came to us by water and not blood was John the Baptist, for he baptized with water but was not responsible for a new covenant. Jesus appropriated John's water baptism to reconcile His ministry with the needs of scriptural prophecy (truth). The culmination of Jesus' ministry was the introduction of a new covenant sealed in Jesus' own blood.

The virgin birth as evidence Jesus is the Messiah is not symbolized by water and blood in these particular passages. Rather it is part of the witness of the spirit (identified as truth) in 1 John 5:6. Where does one turn to for truth? Scripture.

Also, remember that the blood of Mary's hymen was still Mary's, meaning it was not divine, meaning it could never save, unlike Jesus' own blood. Then there is the idea that in general a natural childbirth is not bloodless.

 

[chessman]

I asked:

Did John see or touch that? (Mary's water sack or virgin blood)

​

Your 'answer';

That's why the scripture says - the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

JLB

Is that a no? I'll have to assume it is. Again, John is writing to them about The Spirit (sure)! The Spirit AND two other witnesses that commentators disagree on what John meant. But nobody disagrees that John's writing about three witnesses that John says, he heard and saw and touched (see John 1:1-4). So that's strike one for Mary's water sack being #2 and her virgin blood being #3. It literally goes against what John says about them.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, ​

Was Mary's water sack and virgin blood of the world? Yes! Strike two against your idea.

And verses 1:1-4 is not the only times John makes the point that he's seen these things he's writing sbout. He repeats it again:

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. ​

So then we come to verse 5:6

1 John 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ, not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. ​

John saw The Spirit in the form of a dove land on Jesus' shoulder! Witness #1 passes the test of John's seeing that. Your #2 and #3 does not pass that test. Strike one against your idea.

And reading on:

1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself.​

Two of the 'testimonies', according to you, are Mary's blood and water sack??? Humm, those things inside himself? Yuk! Strike three!

 

[MarkT]

This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

He was sent by the word of God (water) in the form of man (blood) not with the water (the words of God)) only but with the water (the words of God) and the blood (the life of God).

 

[JLB]

I asked:

Your 'answer';
Is that a no? I'll have to assume it is. Again, John is writing to them about The Spirit (sure)! The Spirit AND two other witnesses that commentators disagree on what John meant. But nobody disagrees that John's writing about three witnesses that John says, he heard and saw and touched (see John 1:1-4). So that's strike one for Mary's water sack being #2 and her virgin blood being #3. It literally goes against what John says about them.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, ​

Was Mary's water sack and virgin blood of the world? Yes! Strike two against your idea.

And verses 1:1-4 is not the only times John makes the point that he's seen these things he's writing sbout. He repeats it again:

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. ​

So then we come to verse 5:6

1 John 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ, not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. ​

John saw The Spirit in the form of a dove land on Jesus' shoulder! Witness #1 passes the test of John's seeing that. Your #2 and #3 does not pass that test. Strike one against your idea.

And reading on:

1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself.​

Two of the 'testimonies', according to you, are Mary's blood and water sack??? Humm, those things inside himself? Yuk! Strike three!

Can you point out in these verse where it says that John is the witness, along with the water and the blood?

5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 1 John 5:5-9



If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.


The witness of the Spirit, is the witness of God.

The witness of God is greater than the witness of man.



And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 1 John 5:8

...for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.


Which is the greater witness?

The witness of John, or the witness of God?


JLB

 

[chessman]

Can you point out in these verse where it says that John is the witness, along with the water and the blood?

1 John 5:5-9

JLB

no. Nor have I claimed that John is claiming to be one of the three witnesses. Certainly not The Spirit. But at least he'd heard and seen and touched himself. But he's not inside his readers so no, John's not The Spirit witness or the water witness or the blood witness. Neither is Mary's water or blood. For the same reason. Neither of them are God.

Which is the greater witness?

The witness of John, or the witness of God?

JLB

The witness of God. Not John or Mary.

 

[MarkT]

This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

Water and Blood is the testimony, not just water but water and blood.

When her water broke, so did her hymen.

Both water and blood ran out of her, not just water, but water and blood.


Natural child birth with the water from her water sack AND the blood from her hymen.

That's the witness.


JLB

Water represents the word of God and blood represents life, in this case eternal life. This is why John writes, 'I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life'. 1 John 5:13

What does Mary's hymen have to do with eternal life?

This is so that you may know you have eternal life (life in Christ). You have the testimony of God. You have the Spirit of God. The Spirit is the witness whether you have the living word of God (the water) and whether you have eternal life (the blood). Those who have his Spirit keep his commandments and have eternal life. These three agree ie. If you have the Spirit, you keep his commandments and you have eternal life. If you keep his commandments, you have his Spirit and eternal life. If you have eternal life, you have his Spirit and you keep his commandments. That's what John means by being in agreement.

 

[JLB]

Water represents the word of God and blood represents life, in this case eternal life. This is why John writes, 'I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life'. 1 John 5:13

What does Mary's hymen have to do with eternal life?

This is so that you may know you have eternal life. You have the testimony of God. You have the Spirit of God. The Spirit is the witness whether you have the living word of God (the water) and whether you have eternal life (the blood). Those who have his Spirit keep his commandments and have eternal life. These three agree ie. If you have the Spirit, you keep his commandments and you have eternal life. If you keep his commandments, you have his Spirit and eternal life. If you have eternal life, you have his Spirit and you keep his commandments. That's what John means by being in agreement.

In 1 John 5:6 water and blood represent literal water and literal blood.

They don't represent "something else".

There isn't any symbolic language being presented by John.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...

What kind of symbolism do we apply to verse 1?


1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:1-13

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How about verse 12, what kind of symbolic meaning does this represent?


JLB

 

[JLB]

no. Nor have I claimed that John is claiming to be one of the three witnesses. Certainly not The Spirit. But at least he'd heard and seen and touched himself. But he's not inside his readers so no, John's not The Spirit witness or the water witness or the blood witness. Neither is Mary's water or blood. For the same reason. Neither of them are God.


The witness of God. Not John or Mary.

8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

...for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

 

[By Grace]

The work you must do is obey the Gospel. JLB

Because salvation is ALL OF GRACE, there can be no work to be saved. Salvation would then be a paycheck, and not an act of unmerited grace by God.

Ephesians 2: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

 

[By Grace]

8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

...for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

It is important three things about this marginal note:

1) it is a theologically correct statement
2) It changes nothing in the NT, or OT
3) The Apostle John did not write it.

 

[MarkT]

In 1 John 5:6 water and blood represent literal water and literal blood.

They don't represent "something else".

There isn't any symbolic language being presented by John.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...

What kind of symbolism do we apply to verse 1?


1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:1-13

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How about verse 12, what kind of symbolic meaning does this represent?


JLB

The language comes from the Scriptures and from the Lord Jesus Christ. For example “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord God, “when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. Amos 8:11 By this we can say that the water that we thirst for is the word of God. Indeed Jesus said "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:14

Likewise the blood; Jesus said, "he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 From the Old Testament we know the life of the flesh is in the blood; "For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life". Leviticus 17:11

The language comes by the Spirit of God so don't be afraid of using it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I haven't been following this thread closely, just scanning it, but a problem I see with the water and the blood being a metonymy for Christ's birth is it makes his birth the sole testimony in the earth, besides the Spirit, that he is the Christ.

While there is testimony attached to his birth, it is his death and resurrection that, scripturally, proclaims him to be the Son of God:

"3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead" (Romans 1:3-4 NASB)

The water and the blood being the birth skips right over the more compelling testimony of him dying on the cross and being raised from the dead.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Because salvation is ALL OF GRACE, there can be no work to be saved. Salvation would then be a paycheck, and not an act of unmerited grace by God.

How did this get in this thread?

 

[By Grace]

How did this get in this thread?

Context, brother.
If you go back to my post, which you questioned, you will see this from JLB:

JLB said: ↑
The work you must do is obey the Gospel. JLB

That was posted in response to my post to Deborah13:

By Grace said: ↑
<SNIP>
Because the nature of an allegory (Plato's Republic which takes place in a cave, and asks the question "Is it always better to be just than unjust?") is that of a fictitious event, like a saga or a myth or a fable calling the things such as water= spirit and blood=flesh is an attack on the Atonement because it reduces it to that of a "good example for all to follow". The entire concept of grace is also obliterated because If the Atonement would be reduced to being an "example to follow", then that would be an impossible and unattainable standard. We would be no different than the Mormons who believe that we are saved by grace AFTER all we can do (2 Nephi 25:23).

So the question for Christians WOULD BECOME "What works that I do are sufficiently meritorious for me to get into heaven? and "Do I need to commit suicide by hanging on a cross to die?". Can you see that, sister?

IOW I was objecting to his statement that ANY work is required to be saved.

Make sense?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Context, brother.
If you go back to my post, which you questioned, you will see this from JLB:

That was posted in response to my post to Deborah13:

IOW I was objecting to his statement that ANY work is required to be saved.

Make sense?

It would be hard for me to comment and keep it within the context of the water and the blood and the Spirit. But I see now why the argument has come up.

 

[JLB]

I haven't been following this thread closely, just scanning it, but a problem I see with the water and the blood being a metonymy for Christ's birth is it makes his birth the sole testimony in the earth, besides the Spirit, that he is the Christ.

While there is testimony attached to his birth, it is his death and resurrection that, scripturally, proclaims him to be the Son of God:

"3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead" (Romans 1:3-4 NASB)

The water and the blood being the birth skips right over the more compelling testimony of him dying on the cross and being raised from the dead.

8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 1 John 5:9-10


This is the testimony of God that He has given of His Son.

God's Son became flesh, and was born of a virgin.

That He is not just a good man, but rather that Jesus is the Christ!

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1

Only the Christ, the Son of God was born of a virgin.

6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I see the water as the living water Jesus offered. This water is in reference ( in part) to baptism by immersion. Jesus started his ministry at the baptismal pool. Romans 6 says we die with Christ and are raised with new life in Christ through baptism. Through baptism, we are washed by the cleansing blood of Christ for the forgivness of sin and are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.